$40.000 speaker advise. Check out my list

Just a thought. I sold a pair of Acapella Campanile Highs to an audiophile who used a Levinson 33H to drive them and the sound was absolutely spectacular. The Campaniles replaced a set of Grand Utopias which in comparison sounded broken. The Campaniles appear ocassionally on the used market at an attractive price. Suggest that you go to the Aaudio Imports web site for more information on the Acapella speakers. Speakers in this price range are not the easiest thing to get rid of so I suggest that you carefully think through your options before jumping into a purchase yoy may later regret.

Kkalman, thats intersting but I am stumped on writing the speakers off. Most of us don't have a business and or clients to write expensive 40,000 dollar speakers. How do you explain that one in an audit when you explain your confrence room needed $40,000 for a pair of speakers when we all know $400 speakers at best buy are more then adequate.

I like your idea of making your money work for you so you can do more in the future. I would rather like the guy who is generous giving large amounts to charities making a lot in the market then the selfish guy who hoards 10's of thousands of dollars on a cable but can't give a penny to those dying of starvation.

"How do you explain that one in an audit when you explain your confrence room needed $40,000 for a pair of speakers when we all know $400 speakers at best buy are more then adequate."

You could never explain it in an audit.Period. End of story.Jeffrey you should be ashamed for posting such a dishonest means to an end

Freemand,

Perhaps your clients are influenced by the quality of the presentation? ;)

Oneobgyn,

It isn't dishonest if you actually do use it to entertain business clients. In the world of private practice medicine you don't experience those kinds of things. In the world of business it is normal. I would wager at big investment firms you see 40+ million dollar write offs, not $40 thousand.... Such as jets, yachts, etc. Don't get upset with me for making you aware of it. People have been doing it for decades.

Why should I be ashamed? I don't write off my equipment as a business expense... I don't do dishonest things with my money. Telling me I should be ashamed for posting what I posted is like telling a comedy fiction writer to be ashamed for writing a book of jokes and selling it.

You better believe if I start a business and use my home theater as a part of the business, that I would 100% write off any new equipment I buy for the room. At that point it would be a part of my business (it is not right now, so I haven't written anything off) and as such I would be stupid for not using my American "right" to write it off as an expense.... It would be well within my legal rights.

Are $40,000 speakers really any better than a good pair of $15000 speakers?

If you are going to spend this sort of money you probably need to look at active speakers like the SGR Octagons.At least these include amplification and crossovers specifically tuned to, and aimed at, getting the optimal performance out of the drivers and boxes.Anything else is shooting in the dark.

Many experienced audiophiles see the QUAD 2905 as a benchmark for a speaker that is as good as it gets.Anything else might be different but not necessarily better.All speakers have their own set of strengths and weaknesses and spending more money past a certain point is arguably just an exercise in showing off,being a consumer victim who falls for the con that more is better, or feeding some sort of ego driven delusion.

I know somebody who spent over $100,000 on speakers only to go back to a pair of simple full range drivers-because he came to the realisation that more is not always better and increasing complexity typically comes with a cost of lack of cohesion and purity.

Hmmmm,at those dallors,why don't you sell all your equipment and hire a live band to entertain you?

Are $40,000 speakers really any better than a good pair of $15000 speakers?

The $28,000 Watt Puppy 8 speakers are certainly better sounding than the Wilson Sophia 2s ($16,000) and [b]a lot[/b] better sounding than the B&W 802Ds ($12,000), at least to my ears.... Likewise the Sophia 2s are better than the 802Ds to my ears also, but it could also be that I much prefer the transparency and detail that the Wilson midrange offers compared to a lot of other speakers.

And the Vandersteen 5A sounds better than both Wilson & BW.

I am not sure how suggesting other speakers helps Maxx1973 narrow things down. I would like to know more about what Maxx is looking for in a speaker...so far we have heard "more bass"....anything else? I assume you like the Revels because you own them - what other speakers do you like?

Unless you can offer more clarity on what you like then for 40K you should really hop on a plane and go to a big city for a long weekend and hear a bunch of 40 K speakers with your own CD's....that is what I would do.

Chadnliz,

Not IMO, I heard them at HE2007, set up by Vandersteen. They sounded grainy, dimensionless and uninvolving, much like a pair of cheap studio monitors I own for recording. I was surprised how hyped they are on this forum considering how they sounded, but to each their own I guess....

Shadorne's suggestion to hop on a plane and do some serious dedicated, week long demoing, is the best idea so far.

Jkalman, I guess thats a whole other world I am not use to. I write off my morgage and the money I give to charities, but 40 thousand to 40 million write offs are beyond me. I guess I am a common man living a common life owning a common dog. Wait....a chihuahua is not a common dog but more less a freak of nature. I give pocito (my dog) the bread of freakyness!!!

I can be quite assured of this, is a modded pair of $6,000 speakers will out perform many $40,000 pair of speakers. Maybe discovering many different things to increase a speakers performance has my confidence in this. The parts to mod may be anywhere from about a hundred to maybe a thousand pending how much you do. My thinking is why would someone ever pay a speaker manufactuer $40,000 is beyond me when modding $10,000 or less speakers or so profitable.

I think self pride and knowing you have a jaguar instead of a modded chevy is the deal IMO!

I agree about your giving serious listening to the Vandersteen's. I'm driving mine with Ayre components and using cheap but excellent Anti-Cables. They are not dark at all, and the sound is huge - way beyond the speakers themselves and deep...especially with vinyl. Vandersteens have to be set up properly - all speakers do, to get the most from them. When I replaced all the Cardas cables with the Anti-Cables, the sound became "complete"

08-16-07: Jtgofish
Are $40,000 speakers really any better than a good pair of $15000 speakers?

Are $15,000 speakers really any better than $5,000 speakers? Are $5,000 speakers really any better than $1,500 speakers? Why is everyone so concerned that Max not spend $40K? If he has it, and wants to spend it on speakers, why stop him? If someone wants to spend around $20K on a digital front end, would we all push $8000 cd players on him? Are we uncomfortable with folks playing out of our league? Live and let live.

I say enjoy your new speakers Max! If I were choosing, I would go 2, 4, 1, 6, 5, 3.

John

Vandersteens have to be set up properly - all speakers do, to get the most from them.

Interesting, I've heard them set up by Richard Vandersteen himself (or at least overseen by him, as he was there!). Not impressive sounding speakers IMHO. The Dynaudio Confidence C1 speakers at less than half the price were much better sounding to my ears at HE2007, by a long shot. Speaking of which, you (the original poster) should check out the Dynaudio Confidence line speakers as well. It just goes to show you how important demoing speakers can be, as tastes can be so extremely different.

The Wilson setups sounded much better than both of those to me, but their setups cost more. IMO, the Wilson/BAT room was the best sounding room of the show, followed by Wilson/Lamm and Dynaudio/Simaudio. It was after the extensive demoing that I finally decided to take the plunge and purchase the Wilsons. I had previously been considering Vandersteens because people at Ayre had recommended I demo them (as well as Wilsons), but hearing the 5a speakers at the show was pretty anti-climactic compared to the Watt Puppy 8s. There was no comparison whatsoever in terms of mid-range detail, transparency and immediacy. The Wilsons made it seem like I was there at a real event, while the Vandersteens sounded like a pale reflection.

Another big upset for me was the Magico Minis. I had heard so much hype about those speakers as well. They sounded bright, clangorous even, and uninvolving to me, though to be fair they didn't treat the room at all like Vandersteen and Wilson did. The Confidence room wasn't treated either though, and at less than half the price, they sounded better than the Minis IMO. Nice finish on them though...

I can be quite assured of this, is a modded pair of $6,000 speakers will out perform many $40,000 pair of speakers. Maybe discovering many different things to increase a speakers performance has my confidence in this. The parts to mod may be anywhere from about a hundred to maybe a thousand pending how much you do. My thinking is why would someone ever pay a speaker manufactuer $40,000 is beyond me when modding $10,000 or less speakers or so profitable.

Interesting, so what speakers have you done these specific comparisons with? Also, what makes you think that what you find subjectively pleasing is something other people would find pleasing acoustically? Those kinds of generalizations apply to you and your opinions, not necessarily all, or even many, other people. Perhaps they hear something you don't, that is possible you know, as per this article on hearing psychology: http://psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch/

I think self pride and knowing you have a jaguar instead of a modded chevy is the deal IMO!

Well, if you can generalize a whole population of people who own certain items based on your own prejudices concerning the pricing differences and sound quality of those items, then it must be true... Or, perhaps you are just biased because of those prejudices.

My mistake, I guess the Dynaudio C1 room was treated with curtains like the Vandersteen and Wilson rooms.

I guess I wouldn't mind hearing those Magico Minis again in a better setting, all things considered. Not hanging something around the room to at least make the music intelligable is gross underplanning IMO considering a speaker designer has some knowledge of acoustics and what effect higher frequency reflections will have on the sound quality...

Jkalman - I'm curious to know what your sound reference is? I always use acoustic instruments when evaluating equipment because I know what real violins, cellos and pianos sound like. For those instruments, I've never heard a Vandersteen speaker sound less than excellent. They unfailingly produce a natural instrumental timbre when set up properly. However, if you use studio produced rock/pop recordings as your reference, then anything goes because no one really knows how they should sound except the mixing engineer. Then the evaluations become entirely subjective (which is OK if that is what floats your boat but it does not allow one to judge the true accuracy of a component).
Mark

Jkalman - I'm curious to know what your sound reference is?

Krisjan,

I like acoustical material as well to give me an idea of how accurate a speaker sounds, especially since I have been playing instruments myself for over 18 years (~25 years if you include piano). I play electric as well as acoustic instruments, so I like to hear how that sounds too. The thing about "grain" and "dimension" though, or "lifelike" qualities to the sound. Those are characteristics you notice pretty easily when they are there, or not there, especially when the speakers aren't fooling you into thinking you are hearing the real thing and not just speaker output.

However, if you use studio produced rock/pop recordings as your reference, then anything goes because no one really knows how they should sound except the mixing engineer. Then the evaluations become entirely subjective.

Since every consumer recording is in some way put through a studio engineering process (as far as I am aware), including acoustic music, I don't think that is a practical statement, seeing as "every recording" is, as such, subject to your criticism. So no one "really knows" what any recording is "supposed" to sound like except the engineer who made the masters. You are still left with having to decide based on subjective preference, i.e. - what sounds more "real" to your ears. To my ears, the Wilsons sound more "real," than the Vandersteens.

Also, if you want to really replicate the experience of the engineer, you would need to use the exact speakers the engineer used, as well as his studio space, so you get the same acoustical environmental effects he was getting during the mastering. Unless he used Vandersteens during the mastering process, there is no way they will be accurate in terms of what the engineer was trying to portray, as every speaker is colored differently. I'm sure you can see what a dead end argument the whole thing becomes.

Lasty, you would need the engineers ears and brain as well, since we are each subject to perceptual differences that cause us to hear things a certain way dependent on our unique ear structures and brain processing. http://psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch/

Keep in mind, I never said you should hear "how I hear," or like "what I like." I simply stated that to my perceptions they don't sound as good as the Wilsons (or even close...) or the Dynaudios.

BTW, when you consider the studio monitor speakers used by most sound engineers, and how those monitors sound quality wise, you really don't want to recreate what they originally heard during the mastering process IMO. Often really crappy speakers are used intentionally to account for worst case listening situations.

Take my Samson Resolve 80a studio monitors. Objectively they measure "excellently." Unfortunately, all the best measurements in the world can't stop these speakers from sounding dimensionless, grainy and uninvolving... i.e. they sound "dead." OTOH, if you can make a recording sound even remotely good on those, you can guarantee they will sound good almost anywhere!

Jkalman, I'm glad that you enjoy your Wilson's, but understand that others have different musical tastes/values. I would choose the Vandersteen 5A over the Wilsons anyday, but I understand that others will feel differently. I also understand that neither one of these speakers belong in this thread, as they are not considered contenders by the thread originator, Maxx1973. So there really isn't any need to stray down this path. Perhaps you can start a thread of your own about Wilson speakers.

Cheers,
John

Not sure if you forgot to clean your ears or perhaps you are used to a bright sound but many including Sterophile reviewers noted John's room (Vandersteen) was playing some of the best sounds at the show, I too was there and had a long talk with Richard, it was funny as he didnt really think the Carbon Fiber 5A he was playing were really worth the effort and increased price but he builds for the people.
Maybe Vandersteen is not everyones cup of tea but nobody can dismiss them as sounding like cheap studio monitors and expect to have any credibility.

Many producers of classical recordings use excellent playback equipment during monitoring (eg Telarc). Give me a violn, a cello, a piano recording and I will at least have a chance at judging the accuracy of a piece of stero equipment. You can forget any hopes of accuracy judgement with rock/pop recordings. I'm done highjacking this thread. Sorry for the digression.
Mark

Jkalman, Being able to mod a component of lesser value to perform better or as good then more expensive components is been widely known by many audiophiles who want more better sound for less. Look at all the forums and hype on modding a oppo 981 for less then a thousand and those who have done it say it's in the area of $4000 to $7000 cd players. Rick Shultz does amazing things to the oppo.

As far as pride in owning a Jaguar then a modded chevy has been the fall of man since the beginning. Mans obsession for material is strong. Not my prejudice just the way man is. Our nature is we want to out do the guy down the street. Material is a status item to this society called America.

Chadnliz,

They sound like cheap studio monitors "to me" in comparison to other speakers I heard at the show (including those Dynaudios). I'm sorry if that upsets you... You don't have to agree with me, that is fine. I'll live.

I'm not the one making absolute statements about the sound quality of speakers. You however are... To boot you are personally insulting my hearing now (*you forgot to clean your ears*), as if your perception or opinion of "what sounds good" is the "only" correct one. Grow up!

As per your original post:

And the Vandersteen 5A sounds better than both Wilson & BW.

All my statements have been phrased as personal, subjective opinions, not fact. I would say someone who states their opinions as subjective, and not as fact, has more credibility than someone who posts like his/her opinions are facts (as you did in the above quote). I compared them to cheap studio monitors, because they share a lot of the same sound characteristics as the Samson Resolv 80a monitors I own ($400 per pair). What do you care if I don't like how they sound? If you are so happy with them, then it shouldn't bother you if other people don't like them...

Jkalman, I'm glad that you enjoy your Wilson's, but understand that others have different musical tastes/values. I would choose the Vandersteen 5A over the Wilsons anyday, but I understand that others will feel differently

Yes, and that is exactly why every post I made was expressed as an "opinion" and not as "fact." Thanks for noticing....

If you can't figure out how this line of posts evolved from me recommending the Maxx 2 speakers, justifying why it is OK for the original poster to spend $40K on speakers to the people who were criticizing him for spending that much, and expressing my opinion about a speaker (Vandersteens) that someone else stated as a "fact" sound better than Wilsons and BW[sic]. Then I'm afraid I can't help you. This line of posts didn't occur in a vacuum. Don't forget to criticize your buddy Chadnliz for posting his opinions as facts just because he shares your love of Vandersteen speakers.

I also understand that neither one of these speakers belong in this thread, as they are not considered contenders by the thread originator, Maxx1973. So there really isn't any need to stray down this path.

Certainly the Maxx 2 speakers do belong in this thread, as well as the W/P 8s, because depending on what country he is in, the pricing is different!

Perhaps you can start a thread of your own about Wilson speakers.

My sentiment to the original poster has always been: "listen for yourself and make your own mind up based on what you enjoy most." If he likes Vandersteens more than any other speaker he demos, all the power to him. I wouldn't try to talk him out of buying them. It is his money, his ears and his system. I personally don't think they sound so great, so when someone states that they sound better as if that is an objective truth and not a subjective opinion, it bothers me. You can bet I'm going to express my opinion if it differs from that poster's opinion, especially when that person's opinion is expressed as a "fact." :D

BTW, I didn't realize it until I just read the Vandersteen website, they use Kevlar driver material on the 5a. No wonder I felt them to be grainy sounding in comparison to the Wilsons. I had a similar problem with the B&W 802D Kevlar cone material, and that is a major reason why I upgraded from them to the Wilsons. The B&W mid-range was often raspy/grainy to my ears, much like the Vandersteen 5a speakers I heard. I just don't seem to get along well with Kevlar drivers...

Life is too short to get mad, even on Audiogeek websites.

Jkalman, Being able to mod a component of lesser value to perform better or as good then more expensive components is been widely known by many audiophiles who want more better sound for less. Look at all the forums and hype on modding a oppo 981 for less then a thousand and those who have done it say it's in the area of $4000 to $7000 cd players. Rick Shultz does amazing things to the oppo.

Just because people think it is true, or say it is true, doesn't mean it is true...

Also, just because people by the stuff doesn't make it true either, the modders could just be manipulating a market for profit. Some proof on your part that the mods produce higher quality sound would go a long way in proving your point and disproving that the mods are not just some very creative and biased fiction.

As David Hannum said, "there's a sucker born every minute."

As far as pride in owning a Jaguar then a modded chevy has been the fall of man since the beginning. Mans obsession for material is strong. Not my prejudice just the way man is. Our nature is we want to out do the guy down the street. Material is a status item to this society called America.

Besides any failings of human nature....

I find this a little amusing, because no one in my daily life knows what a Wilson speaker is (or Vandersteen, or any other speaker on the original list). OK, maybe one guy, but only because I took him to HE2007 with me... Before that he never heard of them before. How many people in your daily life can tell the difference between a high-end piece of equipment and a cool looking Harman Kardon receiver? I think I know two people total, besides my equipment dealers, who know a few hifi companies (one is only an acquaintance), that is all! Meanwhile, everyone single person I know is aware of what a Jaguar is... If you want to impress the people you deal with on a daily basis, there are much better ways to accomplish that goal (unless of course, you are constantly surrounded by Audiophiles).

Funny, I didn't see the Wilson Maxx 2 on Maxx1973's original list of 6 speakers. I also did not see Max ask for folks to expand on his list.

Are you a Wilson dealer or something Jkalman? Why are you pushing Wilson so hard?
Why enter the thread and try to change it's direction?
Settle down, pour yourself an adult beverage and enjoy your system.

Cheers,
John

Are you a Wilson dealer or something Jkalman? Why are you pushing Wilson so hard?
Why enter the thread and try to change it's direction?

Nope. I'm not an audio dealer at all. I have sold a few pieces of my old equipment here on Audiogon though when upgrading recently. As per my profile... :)

You can see my personal webpage at http://www.jkalman.com

Funny, I didn't see the Wilson Maxx 2 on Maxx1973's original list of 6 speakers. I also did not see Max ask for folks to expand on his list.

When you have heard what you feel is a "great" thing, don't you want to share it with others also, so perhaps they too can enjoy it as well? Don't start posting irrational things just because I don't like your favorite personal speaker choice.

The original poster hasn't listened to anything on his list yet apparently, or at least not all of them. So giving him other options to check out is not unreasonable. Perhaps he will see a pair of Wilsons or Vandersteens at a dealer selling one of those other speakers he is considering, listen to them, and like them better than anything else. Perhaps he won't listen to them at all unless he hears about them from us first.

Again, I encourage him to demo as many different speakers as possible. It can only strengthen his eventual decision, and make him more certain he is choosing a speaker that is best for his ears. I've made the mistake of not demoing enough speakers before and paid the price when upgrading....

FYI, I recommend that people should demo Vandersteens all the time (the last time was a week or so ago on the Stereophile forum). Just because I don't like them, doesn't mean people shouldn't hear them.

Since so many people do like them, and because they represent a niche approach to audio that many pundits applaud, I tell people that they might like them even though I don't. I just don't like subjective opinions being paraded around as facts.

What would NASA Carlos do?

Jkalman, you honestly don't think man has a obsession for money and material?

If not you must be brand new to america, cause materialism is unfortunately strong in this country and fancy audio is no different then a fancy house or boat.

You obviously need to be right so your right as far as I am concerned.

Jkalman, you are more than welcome to enjoy your "great" thing, I just don't understand your need to force feed your "great" to others. I am no fan of Wilson speakers, obviously, but I would also encourage demo's to those that are interested. I wouldn't encourage demo's to those that are not interested. 20 of the 84 posts on this thread belong to you, raving ad nasuem about a speaker that is not even in the running. While your youthful enthusiasm is to be lauded, you are starting to sound like the proverbial "used car salesman" here.

I suggest you start your own thread singing the praises of Wilson speakers, then feel free to sing to your hearts content. It's not polite to hijack anothers thread though. Mentioning the Wilson's would have been fine, but 20 replies out of 84 is ram-rodding your unsolicited opinions. It's like watching a train wreck now at this point.

About the only thing Max now got out of this thread is that it's better off NOT to ask questions. Maybe next time Max you need to throw in a legal disclaimer like Meagan02 did on this thread.
"While some may be tempted to throw in a red herring by recommending some other preamp, thanks--but that's not what I'm asking."
FWIW, even that is not 100% effective, but it did help somewhat.

John

Jmcgrogan2,

Yada yada yada...

I get it Jmcgtogan2, I don't like your speakers so you continue to make red herring posts attacking me personally and my posts. Perhaps you should take your own advice, since your posts so far, except for one, have nothing to do with this thread and are only aimed at attacking me. It is ironic that you try to pretend there is any logic in your argument when it is only hypocracy at its best. If you don't like it, don't post, thus taking your own advice.

Freemand,

I said in my last post to you, "Besides any failings of human nature..." Meaning, yes, it is a human condition. I don't think it applies to all things though, as no one of consequence in my life is impressed by name brand hifi equipment. So, I do agree, but not wholeheartedly. Also compared to some equipment on these fora, I don't have the top of the line models or absolute best gear in the world (if there us such a thing), and that doesn't bother me because I'm happy with what I have.

I only argue because I see something worth arguing, not because I want to win the argument at the expense of truth.

have you ever considered soundlab speakers? I love my m2's and have had dunlavy sc3's, merlin 4b+'s, ohm f's, and alon's;
I am in my second year of electrostatics and have not considered the upgrade itch yet !!!

Well, that settles it!

buy 120 pairs of mint used advents.

DCM TFE200's.....why pay more..............!