1975 New Reflektor 6n23p SWGP or Siemens/Amperex/Telefunken Cca?

I have around 30 pairs of Voskhod Rockets dated ’73 to ’85, bought as a lot more than a decade ago, before they caught on. While some years are better than others, they all share a family resemblance in my VAC Phi Beta preamp: clear, balanced, detailed, and harmonically on the lean side. For comparison, I also have a bunch of Hamburg Valvo Red Labels, which are harmonically richer while still being detailed and balanced, and USA Amperex USN-CEP 7308 from 1964, and some NOS Seimens. The Voskhods are closer to the USA Amperex and Seimens than to the Valvos in their presentation--again, detailed, balanced, but a bit lean. I happen to like the Valvo Red Label sound. My point is you can pick up a pair of Voskhods from one of the less-fetishized years for pretty cheap and get a sense of whether you like that sound, then decide where to spend large.

Good stuff wrm; thank you!  I'll look into both the Voskhods and the Red Label Valvos.

Thanks!

Tried a plethora of 6922 types, over the past couple decades.      I’m using six of the early 60’s/grey-shield, round getter, CCa Siemens, in my system, at this time.        I also have spare CCa and E188CC pairs, of the same iteration/vintage.        The system’s revealing and I’m picky.        Unless your E188CC/7308 valves are well up in hours; I doubt you’ll notice much difference, if you step up to the Siemens CCa, grey shield.              That’s: unless used in a very high gain circuit (then, maybe).     The silver-shield, internal date coded, Siemens CCa was too edgy, to me.      Tried a (genuine) NOS, Amperex, USN-CEP 7308, grey shield/early 60’s, pair and found them a bit warm, for my tastes.       Didn’t hear about the ’75, 6N23P, SWGP, Reflektor Silver Shields, until the prices were ridiculous.      Don’t see any point in trying the less-esteemed Russian years/iterations, myself.      The aspects of what I hear at live venues, are brought home (there and then, to here and now) with the Siemens, quite realistically (given a well-engineered recording, of course).                     https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes.76107...

Much appreciated rodman.  I did try some NOS NIB French made Mazda (Dario labeled) blue tip e188cc from Brent Jessee in pursuit of a tad more harmonic richness, which indeed they delivered, but the sound was less real than the the afore mentioned Siemens provide.  Also tried some orange globe Amperex 7308; similar result.  

Getting the sense that there's probably not much room for improvement on this front...and the associated sense that I'm lucky to be where I'm at on this front!

Really lucky actually; the matched Siemens e188cc were bought from Upscale Audio in 1997 and used for only a few months in a Sonic Frontiers SFS-80 amp before selling the amp and stashing the tubes...only discovered the tubes in an old Rooney Brushes of England shaver box where I stashed them (24 years ago!) a couple months ago!  Yes, lucky indeed. 

Thanks very much for the experientially earned insights gentlemen.  I'll stick with those happily discovered Siemens tubes.  One case of audio nervosa cured :)    

Try to get some 6n23p Voskhods 74-79 period and you will never look back, problem is to find a good and trusty vendor for these. They have a better pricing compared to other 88 family nos, have less tedency to microphonics, and generate less heat around the tube. I have tried nearly all in that family and i am happy to have a good stock of these and selling nearly all my nos stock of ecc88/e88cc/e188cc. Just kept some Holland ecc88, e88cc, e188cc, Siemens e188cc A frames (which i find better voiced than CCa's). D-getter Bugle Boys ecc88 and Amperex Holland e88cc straight D-getter 1958-1959 period are special but can become noisy. All depends on your gear and how hard it drives the tubes.
Another nice and linear sounding tube is Mullard e88cc-01, equivalent to CCa but unfortunately same pricing and more rare.

G

@xenolith -   Sounds as though our sonic palates are similar.      Given you got those from Kevin (very reliable NOS source): in most circuits, they should last around 10K hrs.      Brent's another of my favorite tube mongers.         You're probably already familiar with his views, on the 6922 family, but- just in case:          http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm

Love this place. 

Once had a mentor tell me "All good scientist must have a latent masochistic streak"...what he meant was that, necessarily, scientists must enjoy the suffering that necessarily predicates the solving of hard problems.

Could be wrong, but, I think that audiophiles, by that definition, are good  scientists.  





  

Yo petg, just bought 4  Voskhod 6n23p "1970s for export" Nationals

4 for the price of 1 Cca

The nervosa cure didn't last long

 

Post your opinions, please.

I'll make sure to do so rodman.  They're coming from Poland with estimated delivery between March 2 and March 19, so will be a while, but I'll for sure return the kindness of you and the other Audiogoners who contributed their hard won experiential insights to my inquiry in this thread.

I've bought,auditioned and sold a boatload of premium 6922 tubes,Siemens CCa grey plates and those with the falcon etching are by far the best in my system.

Yes on the Siemens grey plate Cca being a great tube.  As our our fellow audionaughts (nuts?) here have convinced me, I likely wouldn't notice much difference relative to the 1963 Siemens E188CCs that I'm currently running.

A bit more on the Voskhods that are on the way (they shipped within 5 hours of purchase!)...the link below if for the same tubes that I bought 4 of.  I've learned that one dead give away for Voskhod 6n23p that were made for export are the nickel plated pins...for corrosion resistance (domestic market have steel pins).  The export versions are said to be the best sounding.  Can clearly see the ones in the link have the nickel plated pins.       

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-ECC88-NATIONAL-VOSKHOD-TUBES-MATCHED-PAIR-NOS-NIB-E88CC-6DJ8-6922-197...

Okalee dokalee.  The Voskhod 'for export' mid 1970s 6n23p tubes showed up today.  Clearly NOS; clean Ni plated pins.  5 hours on tubes so far.  Definitely the "flow" thing is there.  Most notable relative to the Siemens, Amperex, Mullard and Dario tubes that I've been running is an engaging presentation that weaves moments together in an audio tapestry that sounds natural, normal...like music is happening.  Agree with others who have opined that these tubes don't impress, that rather they simply do nothing wrong...which becomes impressive.

Already know that for the highly resolving and "sunny" (which is not bright) Dodd battery powered preamp, this is the most balancing of that characteristic without sacrificing resolving capabilities tube of the E88CC type I've yet found.  

Stoked...in a word.

More as burn in happens.

Thanks for the recommendation petg! 

Glad you like them, in simple terms they sound correct. You do not give notice to usual hifi terms, but their musical flow. Too bad prices have gone high as few years back they were selling for peanuts.

G

"Correct"...is right!

Here's an excerpt from what I wrote to the seller who had asked for a review of the tubes:

"They produce such a cohesive sonic picture, that is so correct and natural, that it actually facilitates a more relaxed, less "critical listening" engagement with music. This is the most elusive quality of any piece of audio equipment, to create a listening experience that contains so few ques that it is reproduced sound, that the mind spends so little time evaluating the experience that the experience actually becomes relaxing! 

I mean does one ever listen to a live concert and think "Wow, the shimmer of those cymbals is so realistic!"  Of course not!  One just relaxes and enjoys the music!  So it is with the Voskhods!"

With them in the Dodd (which uses only one triode per dual triode per channel, so can be swapped between channels to double the life of the tube in this circuit) and a spare pair of the Voskhods, I've got enough to  add the Dodd to my 'lifer' list along with the Cocci Audio Ultimate tube monoblocks.  As we all know, that's a huge achievement in our audio pursuits!

Thanks very much for that G! 

mike

Great thread :-)

The 75 Reflektor silver shields are supposed to be the HG of the Reflektor/Voskhod family. I have them running in my Modwight Oppo 205 for 2 or 3 years now, and just installed a pair into my 4 month old Pathos Inpol Ear headphone amp. Quite musical but not overly warm like some other tubes. Great soundstage left to right up/down with excellent depth as we as detail. Great layering front to back with solid state type speed and dynamics. IMO an amazing tube. If your system is neutral to neutral dry, some might prefer a slightly warmer tube. Or if warmth is your thing you may not like the Reflektor at all. YMMV.

The Voskhods are supposed to sound a bit more liquid but lacking some of the other characteristics that the silver shields excel in.

I will have to chime in here and also give a big thumbs up for the 1975 6N23P silver shield Reflector tubes. I have tried just about every 6922 out there over the past 30 years, and found them to be my favorite sounding variation. They even beat out the Amperex pinched waist 6922's in my amps. The big problem is finding a good, strong testing, matched pair from a reliable seller. It took me many purchases until I finally got some that tested well. There is a member who just listed a pair, but he has marked them up from the $300 he originally paid to a whopping $800/pr! 

Just a long duration sound review of the mid 70’s Voskhod 6n23p. Have been running the mid-70’as Voskhod 6N23Ps for the last year and a half. Today I put the Upscale Audio matched (purchased 25 years ago, played for about 2 months and then stashed for 23 years) Siemens E188CC (7308) back in...for about 5 minutes...relative crap. Tons of inter-soundstage haze; lots of hi-fi ooh-ahhs...nothing natural sounding. Put the Voskhods back in...WOW! Smooth, flowing, natural, insightful. What I want in my audio playback.

Just thought I’d report my checking reality experiment against a widely regarded top choice. Wasn’t even close. Voskhod kills Siemens. At least in this system.

Much thanks for turning me on to these amazing tubes petg60!

 

Good to hear that you like them, recently i made some changes installing the 6n23p-ev (1982), just to check that alternative.

Why do i bother? Only thing they did better is in terms of a lower noise, apart from that, boring, with limited dynamics but that is because of the lower cathode resistance of that tube.

By the way on ebay at the moment there are plenty Voskhods, 70's production, on sale by Ukrainian dealers at good prices. Maybe it is time to do a bulk purchase, and after check them on a tube tester, i cannot be so unlucky.

 

Our system is certainly one of the quietest on the planet. Dodd battery powered preamp...only one half of a dual triode tube and 1 V-Cap ODAM capacitor (bypassed by V-CAP CuTF capicitor) in the signal circuit and the only two Charlie Cocci Ultimate monoblock amps on the planet. These amps feature individual pi filtered power supplies for both the input stage and the output stages...3 Henry choke on the input stage and 8 Henry choke on the output stage...only 2 Dueland PIO CAST capacitors, 2 6BL7 and 4 KT77 tubes in the signal circuit. This is an incredibly quiet system. Which makes discerning tube sonics really easy :)

I’ve also noticed the abundance of both Voskhods and New Reflektors from Ukrainian sellers on ebay. I’m pretty well set for the rest of my Life with said, but any sane audiophile who has gear that uses 6DJ8/7308 family tubes would be exercising that sanity by replacing WHATEVER they’re currently using with these amazing tubes. I’m convinced that they are the stand out best in class of their type.

Thanks again petg60...following your advice to use these tubes is one of the smartest audio decisions I’ve ever made :)

@xenolith 

Are you sure that those Siemens E188CC (7308)  are well broken in ?

Just a thought 

Hi grey9hound. Yes, I’m sure that the Siemens are well broken in. Here’s what I wrote earlier in this thread: "...the matched Siemens e188cc were bought from Upscale Audio in 1997 and used for only a few months in a Sonic Frontiers SFS-80 amp before selling the amp and stashing the tubes...". Probably 300-500 hours of use in 1997...but probably another 400-600 hours in 2020-2021 in our Dodd Battery Powered preamp. So, yes, by any normal accounting, they’re well broken in.

Just something very special about the Voskhods.

Got it.

Thanks

With all the Voskhod 6N23Ps around, priced anywhere from $8.00 on up, how do you choose which to buy (not looking for HG versions)  ??

Does it make a difference if they will be going into a phono stage vs say an amp or preamp ?

Just want to try a pair for the fun of it.  

 

Steve

 

Anybody ??

@scm i bought set of 5 on ebay $35 and made sure they were Voskhod Rocket’s.  I bought from a source in Ukraine thinking if it doesn’t work out it will be a donation to help someone out in their horrible war situation.  I picked one listed as new, tested, VRocket’s set of 5 hoping I could get 2 good ones.  No problems they arrived in about 3 weeks well packed.  They were a mix of dates ‘76, ‘81, ‘83 and did not look new but not bad.  Some labels worn down.  Pins looked good. I tested the tubes and got one closely matched balanced pair 95% GM.  The other 3 were all good but not as balanced and GM in 70’s - 90’s with one being very unbalanced.  Overall a success in my mind.  If I do it again I would look for listed date codes from ‘74-‘79 listed as tested hopefully with results.  But its a crap shoot.  Think of it as helping out Ukrainians.  Good luck!

@tksteingraber Thanks for that. I`ll look for date codes and testing.

I want to compare them to the Reflector 6h23p-eb`s that are in there now.

Steve

@scm the tubes I bought sound fantastic in my Lab12 Ref DAC.  They rival my favorite much more expensive French Phillips E188CC tubes.  Stunning for the price.  I bought some Reflector 6P3S (6L6) output tubes from the 1960’s with them rivaling my RCA Blackplate 6L6’s.  Seems the older Reflector 50’s-‘70’s Russian tubes in good condition are excellent sounding tubes. Only if you’re willing to take the risk.   🇺🇦 

Check  these out: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255639579364?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=7sn5SZ6oRNG&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=2lFcSwP8SgS&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Got a pair of 1975 date code Voskhod 6N23P`s today. They are warming up and playing at a low volume in my phono stage right now.

Will be interesting to hear how they compare to the Reflectors.

 

@scm Good luck with it and keep us posted on your,results.  I bought 2 pairs of the tubes in the link I sent in a prior post still in route.   We’ll see what I get🤞. I do like the ones I bought with ‘80’s date codes as well.

My Lab 12 Reference DAC just went up several levels today!  I just received 2 pairs of Voskhod 6N23P’s Single Wire with a mix of silver and gray shields today from the ebay link I provided earlier.  One pair is 1975 and one is 1972. All tested good on my Hickok 605a tester 90%+ GM somewhat balanced/matched.  All have the same exact construction with the curved single wire getter supports.  Unlike my 76-84 ones I own which have the single flat silver getter support rod.  All tubes sound great but these Silver Wire ‘72 and ‘75 are the real deal and the best sounding tubes I have heard.  I can’t tell the ‘72 and ‘75 apart but they are definite step up from my 76-84 tubes.  I did notice one of the ‘75 tubes had different plate construction than the other 3 single wire tubes.  Those plates were the same as my 76-84 tubes.  My take is that it was a late ‘75 tube and they were transitioning to the  newer ‘76 plates but were still using single wire getters.   The years might not be so definitive?…I think the key is to make sure you get the tubes with the bent single wire as close to 74-75 as possible.  Best $100 invested…much cheaper than upgrading my DAC!