For meters, Luxman. I love mine. :)
100W, 200W, or 300W?
I'm pretty new to this and could use some help. Working down my list of upgrades: did speakers, room treatment on order... I think next up is to replace my amp.
I'm currently using a Harman Kardon PA2000 stereo amp that I had sitting in storage. 100 WPC @ 8 Ohm. It's "OK", but it probably the weak point in my system right now.
For speakers, I picked up B&W 805D3 tabletops with stands.
88 dbSPL sensitivity, 8 ohm. They recommend 50-120W @ Ohm for the amp power on their site.
I pulled up an amplifier calculator and plugged in some numbers:
88 sBSPL, 8 ft distance, 85 dB volume w 15 dB headroom and this came out to 3W RMS w 94W peak
I have my heart set on blue watt meters so I see the following options:
1) MA5300 @ 100 WPC, no autoformers, integrated
2) MA7200 @ 200 WPC, has autoformers, integrated
3) MC302 @ 300 WPC, has autorormers, seperates
For the MA5300, I'm concerned that there isn't enough headroom. If I even get close to the 94W peak, it means that I'm pushing the amp to the max, so I'd probably be operating in an area of reduced sonic performance since it's being stressed. Is this a correct assumption?
The MA7200 looks like it'll leave plenty of headroom and it also has (for better or worse) autoformers which seems to be what puts the "mac sound" in macs.
The MC302 is just sexy as heck... but is there any realistic gain with my current set up that I would get by buying one of these? Or is it so much overkill that I am just throwing money away at this point?
I'm currently using a Harman Kardon PA2000 stereo amp that I had sitting in storage. 100 WPC @ 8 Ohm. It's "OK", but it probably the weak point in my system right now.
For speakers, I picked up B&W 805D3 tabletops with stands.
88 dbSPL sensitivity, 8 ohm. They recommend 50-120W @ Ohm for the amp power on their site.
I pulled up an amplifier calculator and plugged in some numbers:
88 sBSPL, 8 ft distance, 85 dB volume w 15 dB headroom and this came out to 3W RMS w 94W peak
I have my heart set on blue watt meters so I see the following options:
1) MA5300 @ 100 WPC, no autoformers, integrated
2) MA7200 @ 200 WPC, has autoformers, integrated
3) MC302 @ 300 WPC, has autorormers, seperates
For the MA5300, I'm concerned that there isn't enough headroom. If I even get close to the 94W peak, it means that I'm pushing the amp to the max, so I'd probably be operating in an area of reduced sonic performance since it's being stressed. Is this a correct assumption?
The MA7200 looks like it'll leave plenty of headroom and it also has (for better or worse) autoformers which seems to be what puts the "mac sound" in macs.
The MC302 is just sexy as heck... but is there any realistic gain with my current set up that I would get by buying one of these? Or is it so much overkill that I am just throwing money away at this point?
69 responses Add your response
When I made the decision to go for more power, I sold my MA5300 and went with the MC462 with the C2600 tube preamp. I also love the blue meters. I know there are a lot of Mac haters on this forum and I almost hate to post what my system is for that reason but I would say go with as much power as you can afford. You can always sent me a private message if you wish to discuss. |
In my view you can never have too many watts output. Go for quality watts but get as much as you can afford. The dynamic swings will be covered. More will be more capable in terms of presenting dynamic scale realistically. No worries or limits in the future if you want to change speakers to something harder to drive (note the advice from another poster to avoid less sensitive speakers ... that’s the tail wagging the dog). Someone mentioned Pass Labs. Great amps, the X250.5 is the bomb, powerful, great sound, ... buy second hand. It’s got blue VU meters ... not green but nice (but not the retro look of the MC). The MC 100 watt amp will work for the speakers you are getting. Trust me though, don’t make the same mistake I did buying amps in the 100 watt range that are less than what the should be and not future proof. |
Get the biggest best amps you can. 300W RMS, or larger. You need the headroom, said,many times, when crescendos, drum, or guitar solos, or the song ending slam at the end does happen, you will need the headroom. Don’t worry about speaker rating, just get minimum of 300 WPC, my speakers are rated at 250 W, my,amps are 650W monos’ nary an issue, never clip, never over drive, or under drive, pure heaven! People always say, all u need is 50 or 100W, not true, my music is absolutely pure, effortless, and when pushed, I get great bass, and never worry about clipping. |
@snuphy91 My room is a little smaller than yours: about 15x15x10 high. Sub is eventually on the TODO list to fill in the bottom end - but after amp and streamer upgrades. The REL looks like something along the line of what I’m consdering, also thinking about the B&W DB3D if I want to keep things "in the family"... geeze never-ending list of upgrades... what have I gotten myself into!?!?! ha ha @elliottbnewcombjr I was kidding about the blue watt meters, just referring to them as a surrogate for the name "McIntosh"... I don’t actually intend to look at them :) So far, I’m really happy with the way the 805D3 sounds, don’t really want to get rid of it yet. Also, the $2k price bump of the larger amp wouldn’t cover the depreciation of the speakers, ha ha. @elevick For me, I think the main deciding factor of MA5300 vs MA7200 now isn’t the +100W, but do I want to go with the autoformers or not? I almost feel that if I’m going to go Mac, I should get the Mac sound which means go autoformers... but the reviews on the MA5300 do seem to be coming in very positive. Darn COVID, wish I could side-by-side the two somewhere. @erik_squires That’s a good point. They should be coming in near the end of the month so I’m mainly info gathering for now. Ordered a bunch of stuff - corner bass traps, some wall traps, diffusors, etc. Should be fun. |
room treatment on order... Don't do anything more until these are in place. They change everything. Lots of power is not important, quality is. I'd suggest you listen for yourself, but include these three, very different sounding amps in your taste test:
Your calculation seems off. Remember that power and volts don't use the same dB equation. Power is 10 log (Pnew/Pold) and Voltage is 20 log. Or I got them backwards. I'd check, but this site is free. :) A middle of the road integrated with ~100 to 150 W will be just fine. But seriously, get your room dialed in first. Better sounding rooms play better at low volume and sound like you have more bass. Choosing anything now will get thrown upside down after. :) Best, E |
Doubling the wattage will only get you an extra 3db. You need about 10db to hear a perceived doubling in volume. Macs have great headroom due to massive transformers. I would think a 100 watt Mac should outperform your HK. You are looking at integrateds vs power amps. If you buy an integrated you are stuck if 100 or 200 isn't enough. If you go with power amps, you can either biamp the speakers or bridge the amps. My vote, go with a power amp for the versatility. |
watching blue meters is a short lived thrill, then you will want to turn them off and 'see' the music not the meters. IOW, look around at other stuff now. btw, the meters show nothing, unless you change the setting to measure a low power range, because you rarely need much power, except when you do! McIntosh SS will not sound, they will simply disappear, theoretically ideal, yet .... I sold mt MC2250, rated 250 wpc, actually tested accurate to 305 wpc at McIntosh Lab day at Harvey's NYC the day it was given to me. Used for years, eh, sold, got McIntosh tube tuner/preamp, made in 1962, fantastic, into tube amp. Yes you can change the speakers, sell them, then you will take a loss, BUT, you will need less power, use your existing amp until you pick a new LOWER power amp, i.e. LOWER cost (helps with the loss selling the speakers), AND, you will be set up to try tube amp now or in the future. |
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@stereo5 If I did do the MC302 route, my initial path would be to have no pre-amp and just output from my single source (Sonos streamer) directly. My entire music collection is digital and stored on a NAS and available to Roon, Plex, and DLNA - I primarily use Roon. The next upgrade would have to be a pre-amp to get a decent DAC, so I’d figure something like a D150/D1100 - although I like the idea of one of the newer designs, like the C49 which provides an upgrade path of DA1 to DA2. Once a pre-amp is in place, the plan was to replace the Sonos with another streamer that will output straight to USB (like an UltraRendu or something similar). The new integrated amps (MA5300/MA7200) do provide a really attractive option between they knock out the amp & pre-amp upgrades at the same time, get me a decent DAC, and provide an upgrade path with the DA2. Do you think it would be worth it for me to consider the MC302 over the integrated options considering the power requirements (or lack thereof) that seem needed to run my system? |
I have a Mac MA6600 integrated which has the transformers and 200wpc. The sound is quite effortless and has that great Mac sound. I would not trade it for anything. I also own the MC302 300wpc amp in another system. Since the MC302 is a power amp only, what will you use as a preamp? I haven’t heard your B&W speakers but usually, the more power, the better sound to really make them open up. |
Never buy speakers less sensitive than 90dB. Anything less is the difference between being able to drive them well with any of scores of amps with as little as 50 wpc, and being stuck with speakers that force you to try and find a good sounding 200 wpc amp. Not a lot of those arou
Well it is true 90db should bea ideal cutoff point, But not always. I had a Jadis Orch Refer and quite comfortably pushed the Thors rated 87 db. Seas drivers at least the EXCEL line are low efficient but offer dynamics, fidelity,, Thing is you will need a tube amp that boasts hefty trans and a good transparent design. So yes, low db requires a tube amp that has power = will cost ya a bit more,,but doable on the used market. |
So, this is a good calculator that is pretty intuitive https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html If you are sitting 8' from those speakers, with 100w and it is even vaguely close to a wall your peak output is 106.3 dB. That hits THX standards for output. You are fine with the 100w amp. Also, peak output is usually at the deepest frequency. While those speakers have good bass response, they aren't going to 20hz. You would be fine with 20 really good watts as that would give you ~14.3dB of headroom at 85dB (Peak 99.3). People get too caught up in terms of huge power numbers IMO. I run less efficient speakers with 45w and they sound extraordinary. |
This is why my #1 speaker filter is 90dB. Never buy speakers less sensitive than 90dB. Anything less is the difference between being able to drive them well with any of scores of amps with as little as 50 wpc, and being stuck with speakers that force you to try and find a good sounding 200 wpc amp. Not a lot of those around. Certainly not anything normal people can afford. Consequently my advice would be to look for better speakers. Being on a budget I would set my filter a bit higher, at least 92dB, and preferably more. Find some you like at 95dB and then you will be able to find low watt amps very affordable, that combined with your speakers will sound a whole lot better and for a lot less money. |