100W, 200W, or 300W?

Being that I just bought these speakers, replacing them isn't one of the options that I'm looking for :)

Trying to see what best to do within the 3 listed options, if possible.

@verdantaudio Intersting! So it sounds like between those options that the MC302 would be way overkill and I should consider either the MA5300 or MA7200 with the deciding factor really being where I want to stand on the autoformer vs no autoformer debate?

@stereo5

If I did do the MC302 route, my initial path would be to have no pre-amp and just output from my single source (Sonos streamer) directly. My entire music collection is digital and stored on a NAS and available to Roon, Plex, and DLNA - I primarily use Roon.

The next upgrade would have to be a pre-amp to get a decent DAC, so I’d figure something like a D150/D1100 - although I like the idea of one of the newer designs, like the C49 which provides an upgrade path of DA1 to DA2.

Once a pre-amp is in place, the plan was to replace the Sonos with another streamer that will output straight to USB (like an UltraRendu or something similar).

The new integrated amps (MA5300/MA7200) do provide a really attractive option between they knock out the amp & pre-amp upgrades at the same time, get me a decent DAC, and provide an upgrade path with the DA2. 

Do you think it would be worth it for me to consider the MC302 over the integrated options considering the power requirements (or lack thereof) that seem needed to run my system?

@snuphy91 My room is a little smaller than yours: about 15x15x10 high. Sub is eventually on the TODO list to fill in the bottom end - but after amp and streamer upgrades. The REL looks like something along the line of what I’m consdering, also thinking about the B&W DB3D if I want to keep things "in the family"... geeze never-ending list of upgrades... what have I gotten myself into!?!?! ha ha

@elliottbnewcombjr I was kidding about the blue watt meters, just referring to them as a surrogate for the name "McIntosh"... I don’t actually intend to look at them :) So far, I’m really happy with the way the 805D3 sounds, don’t really want to get rid of it yet. Also, the $2k price bump of the larger amp wouldn’t cover the depreciation of the speakers, ha ha.

@elevick For me, I think the main deciding factor of MA5300 vs MA7200 now isn’t the +100W, but do I want to go with the autoformers or not? I almost feel that if I’m going to go Mac, I should get the Mac sound which means go autoformers... but the reviews on the MA5300 do seem to be coming in very positive. Darn COVID, wish I could side-by-side the two somewhere.

@erik_squires That’s a good point. They should be coming in near the end of the month so I’m mainly info gathering for now. Ordered a bunch of stuff - corner bass traps, some wall traps, diffusors, etc. Should be fun.

Thanks all:

In general it sounds like there is no significant danger by going big (just don’t crank the dial) - I’m more concerned with having enough headroom. Given the size of my room and the sitting distance, I have a feeling that I’ll blow my ear drums out or have the police visit before I blow the speakers.

@chilli42 Based on what I’m seeing Pass looks to be a bit more than I’d like to be spending right now!

@fbgbill thanks! I’ll likely take you up on that PM offer later on as I gather more info!

@twoleftears No one is pushing me in that direction, but it’s the combination of aesthetics and quality - I do understand that I can do better for the dollars but there’s always a trade to be done. The B&Ws fall in the same boat - can do better for the dollars - but they’re still really nice speakers and I really really like the way they look. Don’t want all looks and no bite, likewise, not after all bite and no looks - aiming for a sweet spot in the trade-offs! :)

@almarg that’s assuming you crank the dial, then you’ll likely blow the thing. I’m more interested in head room. Even if we assume that the speaker will blow after 120W, I’m concerned the 5300 will start to sound bad way before that because it’s pushed to the max. To use a car analogy, I’d rather be in a car with a 120 MPH top speed going 60 MPH than a car that’s rated for 60 MPH going 60 MPH... did it in high school, you’d think the thing was going to fall apart on the highway!

@avanti1960 yeah, I’m leaning towards the 7200/302 for those reasons. There is a case to be made for the 302 in that I can play around with different pre-amps afterwards to upgrade without having to change out everything. In the immediate term, I don’t even need a pre-amp... I can pipe my streamer directly into the amp.

@auxinput curious, what amps were those? What are you using now with your 805D3s?

@ditusa Yeah, that makes sense - with more distance, you’re going to need more DB. What would you recommend as a power range given the 805D3 specs? I’m currently giving it 100 wpc using a nothing-special amp (the Harman) and while it sounds really good, it feels like the speakers can be sounding much better. Don’t know how to verbalize it, but it feels like there is more to be had out of these speakers.

Thanks all,

Learning a lot here and using your info to do follow-on research. For sure, no decision until acoustic panels arrive and go up (end of the July, early Aug?) then we’ll see where things go from there. Budget isn’t unlimited which would probably rule out some of the more exotic options (Pass labs, for example).

My initial thought is that the B&Ws are on the brighter side of things. While I’m very happy with them, I want to make sure that I don’t choose gear that makes them brighter. I want to do as much as possible with hardware (speakers, amp, treatment) before leaning on DSP for the final round of tweaks and corrections.

@auxinput thanks for that info! Sounds like too much power isn’t an issue and neither would be the bass from your experience - since most of the external subs that I’ve looked at seem to have their own class D power source... so the amp I’m looking for now is just to drive the 2 speakers. And in a room of this size - there is probably only so much power one could take before their ear drums implode.

@ei001h I’ve read very favorable things about the Luxmans. My main concern is how well will they pair with my speakers? B&W is already on the bright side of the things and it seems from reading (and videos) that the Luxmans are also a bit on the bright side - that’s one of my reasons for considering Mac. The Macs with the transformers seems to be a bit more laid back and more forward in the mid range which seems to align with a good strategy to handle the speakers. As you own both Luxman and Mac what would be your thoughts on that?

Tubes are an area where I’d like to play around in the future - a few paths for that if I went the Mac route - for example, get a 7200, then later there is the option to run a tube pre into it and bypass the built-in one essentially turning it into a 200 wpc amp. Or with the 302, obviously, you could just get different preamps for it without having to swap out the amp stage. Both options have nice growth paths.

I listen to almost all music (rock, jazz, classical, r&b, pop, rap, electronic, musicals... very little country though), but the bulk of my listening these days is focused on rock, pop, and vocal jazz. Lots of stuff from the 60s-80s right now, although it’s still fun to spin up some NiN from the 90s - forget his stuff after that! ;-)

@mrklas Curious, what speakers are you running with those?
Thanks

@ei001h Thanks, I’ll check out that Instagram!

@ei001h @twoleftears Ok... I take it back! After checking out of those videos I have to say... dang, Luxman sounds smooth on the 805D3!

It appears that those Luxmans are almost 50% more cost than the Mac gear that I’m looking at.

I believe the MA7200 is around $7k, and the L-509X is around $10k new. I’m having a hard time finding price data on used stuff, but it looks like a used L-509X may be in the price vicinity a little shy of a new MA7200?

@auxinput wish there was someplace to do a real-life side-by-side. I have to admit that at least in the various Youtube and Instagram videos that the Luxman seems to pair with the 805D3s better than the Macs do... 

But, at least for me, online video is good to compare overall themes - but useless in understanding what the sound is really like.

For example, last night I watched a video of my speakers paired to a Mac playing a song that I've played often - and it sounded terrible. But that song sounds much better with my "meh" amp on the same speakers - Hence the nature of beast with online videos - a recording of questionable quality (the video) of the playing of another recording (the subject of the video) ultimately being played on a device of likely even lower quality (my iPad)... :)

@auxinput Being new to this, I'm still figuring things out - but that's why I came into this thread with an open mind - despite wanting a Mac, I'm now seriously considering other options and doing research on the many things that are being written in this thread - learned/learning a ton. After all, what would be the point in me asking for input if I didn't care what you all had to say! Keep the info flowing! :)

@ei001h Yeah, that's what I'm laerning - after listening to the videos, I really liked the detail from the Luxmans. Also, they seemed to tame the tweater without being overly mellow. My concern with the Macs now, if they may be a little bit too laid back for my taste. As you mentioned, I have a highly resolving speaker and I'm looking for something that will pair well with it, without overdoing it and getting me fatigued - currently with work-from-home in full swing - I'm listening to the thing all day!

I'm located in Redondo Beach, which is a suburb of Los Angeles. With COVID in full swing (and beyond) over here, I've been trying to limit going out for the time being.

What do you think of the Levinson integrateds? Haven't done much research into that brand yet, but I know that they've been around since I was a kid.

Did some initial searching for Luxman, but they seem hard to find used, in general. The few that I found appeaer to be Japan imports that need a step-down converter. Is this the norm? Or am I looking in the wrong places to find these?

@atasphere those are the general dimensions of my room, but it's more square-ish because there are things jutting into it like a closet, offset door, entry way, etc. I do have acoustic panels on the way (eventually) from GIK, but they're super backordered. Expect them at the end of the month. I have corner traps up to the ceiling to take care of an open corner. The other corner, can't fit corner traps, so I have a 6" monster trap that will go against the wall near that corner. 6" monster trap on the wall across from the speakers in the center. 6" alpha traps with some diffusion on either side of the wall across from the speakers. And two quadratic diffusors to go between the speakers. Should be interesting!

So I’ve been thinking about this more, and I think @atmasphere has a point - maybe watts really isn’t a big deal for me. After all, I have 100 wpc right now and I can’t crank it, as is, without going deaf. Probably the room acoustics of my small room. 
Assuming that’s the case, is there any advantage of considering a smaller Class A as well? Say a Luxman 590 instead of a 509/505?

I think it’s 100% given at this point that, unless I stumble on a crazy deal that I need to jump on, I really need to wait until I have my acoustic panels up in a few weeks before buying anything - need to see how they affect things as my room is probably magnifying sounds right now (it’s echoey). 
I still haven’t ruled out Macs because they still do sound good and their integrated, unlike Luxman, has a DAC (And upgradeable to boot!) which covers 2 of my wants vs one. I also like that they have more tech on their side as the Mac can be more easily integrated with Roon through USB - that gets me volume control through the Roon interface that I primarily use (when I swap my Sonos for a USB streamer). 
Lots of good info in this thread - you all are awesome. I’m learning a ton and considering paths that I never would have considered.

Keep it coming!

So... after tons of continued research, I think I’m honing in on a game plan.


First, to address my power concern: 100W is fine. Doing the math, 2m listening distance, at 88.4 dB (measured on stereophile) sensitivity, with a desired volume of 102 dB (loud! I’m not actually going to go near this high) needs 92W. At 100 dB target, drops that to 58W. And that’s not counting amplifier headroom so I think I’m ok with any choice.

I expect the room treatment to have a drastic impact on sound, but I don’t expect it to change the math behind the power needs. That’s because I suspect my room is echoing and magnifying the sound currently which is why I play at lower volumes. Once treated, I suspect that the volume dial is going to go up (which aligns to what others have said in this thread) because I’ll lose the freebie (but poor quality) amplification from the room so that’s what it’ll take to hit the same volume level. That’s why the calculations above are important - that’s direct volume so those are worst case numbers. The volume knob only goes down from there.

I think I’m going to go the organic route and grow into this - as mentioned I’m new to this, so need to temper what I do with whatever little level of restraint that I have. As I just bought a new house and with the economic uncertainty of the zombie apocalypse in play it would probably be prudent to exercise at least some semblance of restraint on my part! Ha ha

That said, I’m heavily leaning towards the MA5300 route right now. Still considering Luxman, but I think the value proposition may be higher on the Mac side (for me).

What’s attracting me to Mac are a few things: they look nice (glass w blue meters!), 1.8 dB headroom leaves plenty of power, the high resale value makes it easier to do the organic jump if an upgrade comes later, and the value proposition - the MA gets me a new amp, has a pre, and also comes with the DA1 which is a decent DAC. Throw in $1k later, and I can jump to the DA2 DAC. I also like the Roon ready capability since I’ve drunk the Roon Kool-aid.

The next thing I had to work out was autoformer vs no autoformer and that discussion seems to lead to a holy war on the forums. Both have their merits, but after listening to a ton of videos and doing a lot more research it appears to be a wash to me... it’s just preference... one choice is not inherently better than the other. My take on it is that it seems to give a more tube like presentation at the cost of bass control and possible some accuracy - I think that’s why the Luxman videos were really shining on me. Digging through the Mac specs it appears that their own direct coupled design has 5 times the damping factor of the autoformer design. While it seems debatable if damping factor beyond 250 has real-world gain, these values seem to be within the “it might matter” range since they’re within the 0-250 range. No single amp design is perfect - you need to make your trades.

That said, that’s why the MA5300 is looking interesting to me. It has the wattage needed for my small room (it’s my home office), has all the toys so I upgrade everything at once, has some growth potential, Roon ready, looks nice, good resale if I change my mind or want to upgrade, and because it’s directly coupled should have performance closer to the Luxman side of the house sonically.

I’m not sure if it’ll sound as nice as a Luxman, but I need to see where things land when I make my trades. The 509 and 507 are really nice! In the end, I don’t think I want to deal with the high power consumption (heat!) of class A, so the 590 is out.

If my room was larger, my sitting distance would increase and that would change everything. During my research, I found the math for dB reduction as a factor of distance and it’s very significant. Just my 2m distance comes at a cost of around 6 dB! That’s huge!

One other factor that I’ve taken into consideration is that my speakers also don’t have crazy bass as they’re 2-ways and they’re size limited. The frequency response bottoms out at 42 Hz. All of the sub options I’m looking at for future growth have built-in class D amps so they’re not affected by what I choose here.

So I guess my saving grace is that my home office isn’t very big! :)

Any ways, just thought I’d share my thoughts so far!

Hi all, latest update:

The amp I ended up buying was... none on my list! I bought a McIntosh MC152. 150W/Ch w 2 dB headroom so no power concerns and also has the autoformers. Nice and laid back, seems to have tamed my tweeters a bit. Only had a chance to play around with them a couple of hours. Those meters are really fun to watch - better than staring at the wall while the song is playing.

Wasn’t in a big hurry to pick something, but a deal dropped in my lap that was way too good to pass up.

@mrklas Thanks! I was able to cross off more boxes by going with separates, so I changed my plan a little bit. I didn't know about the MC152 which basically got me what I wanted without having to go as big as the MC302.

I've been having a lot of fun. Replaced my speakers, then the amp with that new one. Afterwards, my acoustic treatment finally came in so I put that up. Last week, finally got around to making a new convolution filter with REW for my new amp+acoustic updates and loaded that into Roon. Incredible difference from where I started!

The Sonos Connect which I'm using for streamer and DAC is now the weak point in my system. Time to weigh some options for when my wallet recovers a bit...