100 Albums You Would wish for...from a Genie

Music is about a lost past , a forgotten one which can reappear in our own memories (reincarnation exist )

Peter Pringle is a popular singer who let fame and money long ago and dedicated his days to ancient languages, musical ancient instrument reconstruction  and pure music born from the relation between cosmos  and the body...

A bard like Bob Dylan but ressuscitated from an ancient past...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDRD3c-WAec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs

Music is also about Pure Joy ...

Only pure uncorrupted joy...

Listen to it here with Hildegard de Bingen and with the Pygmies choral:

Same human soul, same music from two different worlds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei88J4lERbk&t=203s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnogT0JsJJ0&t=829s

Now the primal rythm of creation in two expressions very different one :

One is the australian aborigenal rythm...

The other is the pure mathematical expression in sounds of the prime numbers distribution which is the cosmic ground itself...

Music is about cosmic rythms aspects perceived by us ... Not about mere  tastes...

Creation music :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcH8TNkWOQ

Distribution of primes music created by one of the great living mathematician from the primes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBArTv71Edk

 

 

I was always fascinated by the power of human voice...

Here we can listen a female voice putting a complete metal orchestraq in the background by his strong expressiveness power and content  alone...

I dont like particularly metal... But there is revelation eveywhere even in metal music...

Music is not about our tastes...

music is about real power in the cosmos....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SeYqDDMTX0&t=1542s

You guys have some nice lists, I will be wearing Qobuz out trying to find some of these.  Thanks for posting this, great job @mofimadness 

Now listen to this

Charles Ives  "the unanswered question"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tNA_DbpJjU

 

And for those who think that there is no more in music that a question about tastes listen to the explanation  and analysis about this 6 minute work composition  ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAa_MH0iCw&t=257s

I will quote here the first commentator under this youtube channel  rendition , one of the best of one of the greatest Choral Work Of  visionary Bruckner :

«The last performance of Bruckner's TE DEUM ,which Bruckner himself attended, was conducted by Richard von Perger at the suggestion of Johannes Brahms. On his copy of the score, Gustav Mahler crossed out "für Chor, Soli und Orchester, Orgel ad libitum" (for choir, solos and orchestra, organ ad libitum) and wrote "für Engelzungen, Gottsucher, gequälte Herzen und im Feuer gereinigte Seelen!" (for the tongues of angels, heaven-blest, chastened hearts, and souls purified in the fire!). The composer himself called the work "the pride of his life".»

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeYuPPP1-Qw

 

The late Jimi Hendrix , a genius in his own way would have like this master :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUztTShqxRA

Music is about each times of the day...It is about cosmic tidal rythms...

It has nothing to do with our tastes here... 😊

My favorite album of Sarangi... One of the very hard instrument to learn ...

Inimitable singing voice of a musical event...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wYXEY4htDA

Music is sometimes unspoken  poetry...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReMoXa9M3XI

 

Music is not about tastes...

Music is about real life poetry...As in the Yoruba talking drums...

There is many ways to "talk" ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFCCDs7xOkA

 

I am fascinated by the expressive depth and intensity reach by the Murderer Prince of Venosa Carlo Gesulado and his musical genius..

His tortured music with almost modern accent is the perfect expression of a tortured and devored consciousness in a purgatory of his own...

His music is like a set of flames....

Unique in musical history...

My favorite interpretation favor the emotion content translation instead of accentuating the esthethic aspects for their own sake...

Here too music is about death and life and not a mere distraction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8iBHVvWxCA&list=PL-z1Tx-3D_SeCkavLkULXYDznGJA1JCzn

Now the greatest protest song ever written after "strange fruit" by Billie Holiday...

Bob Dylan is a bard of homeric times reincarnated...

Music is not about our tastes it is about our life...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NbQkyvbw18

Another of my "tastes" choice for a list :

One of the great Turkisch master of oud , Necati Çelik..

All Jimi Hendrix fans as i am  will love it too...😊

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FElmnfSSQ_g&list=OLAK5uy_mX8N44jggln4Jd0AekKJ_g7BPyi35xxJM

 

Yoruba drummings explained...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHFIJZm2dzw&t=912s

Yoruba drummings by a master :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oQJZ2TEVI&t=11s

It show how music is grounded in Society, in history, in biology and in Nature...

Music is not about "tastes"... It is about life...

A post I thought originally might be fun has gotten way far away from that end.  

I have no patience with someone who instead of reading my post and trying to understand my argument put words in my mouth...I am not perfect... 😊

My posts were never about the value of my tastes against the value of your taste or against everybody tastes..

Our tastes are our ENTRY door into music ... They are the starting point of our journey they are not our tombstone... Our limitations (tastes) because tastes are also limitations must not be obstacles and justifications of our own ignorance..

i never claim that a piece of music is inferior to another one , and yoruba drumming is not inferior or superior to 17Th century folk music or to Bach compositions...

IS IT CLEAR FOR YOU ?

I said that the rooting and grounding of music in the body/brain and in Nature, the history of music over millenia transmitted in what we called TRADITIONS delimited what is OBJECTIVE VALUES about music...

Commercial music born after Bernays marketing methods MAY lack these interesting growing roots to an extent that some of our "tastes" about commercial music may be too superficial...

I claimed that commercial marketed music is SOMETIMES inferior to any musical forms in human history , by the definition itself of commercial music : a commercial product IMPOSED by artificial conditioning ...

Then i never said that Pygmies music which is rooted as Bach music in an history and in the playing and acting Body/brain in a socially grounded context are inferior or superior...

A.I. produced music so interesting it will be will not be created by musician inhabiting a body and a cultural history... This ring a bell ?

I am not patient with you because you tried to put your words in my mouth...

 

Then inform yourself... You say that you dont attack me , this is false, you tried to twist my observations to suit your subjective relativism...

For example :

“Commercial music is not yoruba drumming... The content is not the same at all.... The experience is not the same at all”.
According to whom?
Again, not a fact.

 

Sorry to inform you that science , art, and litterature, and societies are about VALUES, and none of this values are equal... Music created to entertain people in an escalator or used in a commercial mall is not the same as a musical jazz event ...Distinguishing is not condemning.... It is thinking...

Again my post is not about naming names of commercial products to discredit them...

This will be not only stupid, because conmmercial product are also created by embodied musicians coming from their own cultures...

As i said the borders separating "commercial consumerist products" from genuine cultural products is not a clear line ... it is a CONCEPT... This concept is necessary to distiguish music coming from a cultural history with his specific language and and from a human body , distinguishing it from at the other extreme : A. I. created commercial music with no ORGANIC roots in the human body nor in the human real living history...

Is it clear enough?

Or do you maintain that all is equal and relative, our tastes are absolute judges, and our understanding must be stop and lay dormant with our uneducated tastes ?

Myself I dont think so because of these OBJECTIVE facts... About body/brain/soul and cultural history of consciousness...

Calling me "unclassy" and someone who spoke "fancy-shmancy academic talk" will not help you...

And Dont put your arguments in my mouth...

Accusing people of being ELITIST is a tactic i dont appreciate... Elite exist by the way and must be recognized... they must not be imposed and in this we can be in agreement at the condition to respect the existence and concept of elite and not reducing it to relativistic nihilism ...

I dont critic people about their tastes, i critic people who stick to their mere tastes as a rule... or WORST i oppose people who for the sake of their own tastes impose a void relativistic perspectives upon us all ...

Music is a cosmos not a children bathroom for the leisure of workers in their after hours ...It is way more than a hobby... Am i clearer ?

And dont come back saying that i despise workers who relax with their tasteful musical choices each evening with "commercial" product...

I relax too...

But i think too between relaxations...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@mahgister I said, “you are speaking with grave authority on matters purely subjective.”   
That’s not “putting a label” on anybody. It’s called, “conversation.”

My bit about people listening to music on phones vs. gear made solely for music reproduction etc. was just a hypothetical scenario I made to prove a point.  
It had nothing to do whatsoever with anything you had previously written.

You somehow took that as being all about you; you took it personally.  
You said I was “putting a label on you.”

It’s called, “conversation.”

This is all very curious behavior. 

You then said I had “limited opinion or understanding.”  
An inexplicable statement, given the content of our exchanges at that point, and, more importantly, uncalled for.

“For sure music is not a mere "subjective" mess randomly distributed in all cultures, that we must treat as superficial subjective tastes in a relativistic manner as you suggested ...Those who think so are ignorant thats all..” 

I beg to differ.  
There are zero people on planet Earth that can “prove” one piece of music is “better” than another.  
My friends and fellow musicians (most of my friends are, like myself, professional musicians) know me to be…how should I put it…quick with an opinion.  
Sometimes the intensity of my opinions may be described as virulent.  
I can be pretty caustic.  
I’m also not an idiot and understand that my fancy-shmancy academic talk doesn’t amount to a hill of beans to someone who likes…gosh, I don’t know…Morgan Wallen, for example.
No matter the infallibility of my fluency in music theory, no matter the depth of my understanding of music history, no matter how deep of an understanding of the “nuts and bolts” of music may be, no matter how good at music I am, no matter how persuasive and academically sound my argument may be for the sheer suckiness of Morgan Wallen, it ultimately amounts to a hill of beans to the person who absolutely loves Morgan Wallen.  
It would result in a statement no more a “fact” than saying, “pizza is better than hamburgers.”

“Commercial music is not yoruba drumming... The content is not the same at all.... The experience is not the same at all”.  
According to whom?  
Again, not a fact.

The one reference to empirical fact you have made, your reference to the science that exists to support the idea that music can be physically therapeutic…that remedial listening may be just as effective via Morgan Wallen or BTS as Bach, depending on the person.  
“Inform yourself before you put a label on me.”  
Classy dude, this mahgister fellow.

 

I am not born with a taste for the Chinese erhu music nor for the Japan koto...

Any music must be LEARNED....

And love sometimes come when we are ready...

This does not m,eans that i will necessarily love Elliot Carter the way simonmoon argue for his greatness... But simonmoon AWAKE what perhaps will be called my ignorance tomorrow...

Thanks to him...

 

I never cease to love my innate taste musical choice : choral music all my life... ( not opera that i learned how to appreciate much , much later )

But i learned to appreciate all other music culture and styles ( not so much commercial music ) i did not love so much at first or not at all some music  BY IGNORANCE and LACK OF ATTENTION... I prefer to  the actual  pop commercial music his old roots in folk songs in England for example... By the late Alfred Deller for example...It is my tastes here... 😊

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0UZ3vvsfBI&list=PLiN-7mukU_RGQqxsWaJg7M94p1aTSJ4Hm

 

 

It is normal to have preferences, it is ignorance to reject all the rest for all our life...

That was my point...

i will try Elliott Carter as suggested by simonmoon... I will go slowly because it is not my "taste"... But i will LEARN something and sometimes miracles happen, and our mind open to new unsuspected possibilities...

This is music experience for me... Not only confort, relaxation, feeling, thinking, but the will to go where no one bodly goes... 😊

I never listen any jazz when young nor pop... I learned a lot with trying to understand jazz in the last 20 years...

 

 

 

I related to these not as "music for listening" but due to their strong emphasis on the vibrational aspect as a means of elevating consciousness, more as mantra or bhajan and in so doing, the question of esthetics/taste receded into the background.

 

I thank you for your post... You are very sensible astute man and you get my point completely here thanks very much ...

Music is not ALWAYS about esthetical tastes...It is way more...

Polyphonic pygmies songs act the way Mantras do and Bajhans do and i love very much all of them ...

Here our soul speak... It is way more than just "music taste"... Sacredness exist too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnogT0JsJJ0&t=1311s

 

@simonmoon , @mahgister

Thanks to both of you for your very generous responses 🙏

@simonmoon

When I tried to listen to them, I was initially taken aback by the dissonances they use, and it made no sense to me. It sounded wrong to me. So, I put their recordings on my shelf and ignored them for probably close to a year. Fast forward many months, and after listening to many other prog bands, I decided to take them off the shelf and give them another listen. It was like a light went off in my brain. What made no sense just months before, was brilliant now. They almost immediately became one of my favorite bands, and remain so until this day.

There is only instance I can recall where I changed my mind about music I initially disliked and that was the two recordings by the acoustic version of Return to Forever. For a long time, they sounded extremely light weight and commercial to me. But I kept "returning" to them and then, one day, I enjoyed them and have ever since.

However, that was an aberration -- the exception-- rather than the rule. I’ve tried this "re-listening" tactic with other music (such as Prog -- "A Tab In The Ocean" is one that comes to mind-- ) and consistently failed. All I can conclude is that I’m unusually resistant to being dislodged from the familiar. No doubt there are psychological underpinnings for this that can be explored.

@mahgister

If you dont cry listening that you need a heart...It is no more singing...Because she pray really, she dont merely sing...

It would appear I’m a bit of an outlier re: your "test" of whether I posses a heart or not because, paradoxically, I’m not immune to the emotion M. A. conveys but neither do I enjoy the vocal esthetic. The latter tends to render the latter moot, in my case. Make of this what you will. ;o)

Of the samples you posted, the two I did enjoy were The Canticles of Ecstasy and the Schutz piece. I related to these not as "music for listening" but due to their strong emphasis on the vibrational aspect as a means of elevating consciousness, more as mantra or bhajan and in so doing, the question of esthetics/taste receded into the background.

That being said, I don’t want to listen to bhajan all the time!

Still, you have succeeded in opening up the possibility that Classical choral music (without orchestral accompaniment) might be something I could enjoy.

Finally, in the interest of accentuating the positive, here is an example of vocal music I have no difficulty enjoying that is not Jazz or any type of western popular music (the sound on the video is fairly quiet -- you may need to turn it up):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAQYISy-3YQ

 

That person emitting “music” from the onboard speaker of their cell phone in a sonically cacophonous environment (airport, busy urban bus stop, shopping mall, etc.) is experiencing music in a way that is just as valid as you or I listening to music in an immaculately engineered listening room with the highest quality equipment in the world.
As disagreeable, perhaps even vile I find the former’s behavior to be, as antithetical to music appreciation as I find that behavior to be, I don’t get to “tell” them “what music is.” Perhaps I may muster the gumption to politely ask them to use headphones out of respect to the thousands of other humans around them, but my personal feelings about what music “is” are my own.
They are not “facts.”

 

 

First i dont know about which post of mine you talked about ?

I never suggested and spoke HERE about people listening Bach or Beatles on a cell phone as inferior to audiophile with acoustic room ...

I said listening music as hearing sounds must be LEARNED not only by babies and children growing but even by us adults... THATS IS A FACT...

Then dont put in my mouth your own limited opinion or understanding or prejudices ...

Kafka is better than harlequin books in LITTERARY VALUE but i dont judge people liking harlequin by saying so... did you understand ? The reason is simple, we must all learn and grow... Myself included... i already say that in my discussion with simonmoon who put something interesting in motion ... I dont pretend to any authorithy, but this dont means that i am a total ignorant either ..

 

We are humans that experience music.
Is that something we can agree on?

If the answer is yes, then not even Ludwig Van Beethoven himself can “tell” me, or you, or anyone, what music “is” with absolute authority.

You are speaking with grave authority on matters that are purely subjective.

For sure music is not a mere "subjective" mess randomly distributed in all cultures, that we must treat as superficial subjective tastes in a relativistic manner as you suggested ...Those who think so are ignorant thats all...I apologize to say so but i say it... It is MY OPINION HERE...

Pygmies Polyphony and Bach polyphonies has something in common : they express something very deep about the spirit and grounded in history... This is A FACT not my opinion... The taste of someone liking  Bach and pygmies polyphonies or not dont change  THE FACTS....

Music is based on the body/brain/ throat/heart/soul/ etc music is ROOTED in the human metabolism and music is grounded  in the way human related to each other and communicate and perceive the world...THIS IS OBJECTIVE FACT....

Then it is not mere" subjectivity"...This is the starting point to understand the VALUES  of the different manifestation of music... Commercial music is not  yoruba drumming... The content is not the same at all.... The experience is not the same at all ... The goal and the richness is not the same at all... Each one of us we had our "tastes"...But they dont matter at all here... 

There is an objective grounding in the physical and spiritual BODY...Music is not  only a mere  hobby here music is not  only a mere commercial enterprise ...Sorry...

Perhaps for you it is a mere hobby and a product to consume following our "tastes"... It is more for me and it is more  for those who studied music and philosophy of music ...And i am one even if i dont claim any authorithy as you LABELLED ME ... I discussed with simonmoon and we tried to understand each other , imitate him instead of cornering me and putting something in my mouth...

Music is not only a deep therapeutical means, WHICH IS ALSO AN OBJECTIVE FACT and this is an OBJECTIVE fact too: it is also, even if you ignore it, the vehicle of human consciousness as manifested in certain way in all cultures...

In face of all these deep objective facts, saying that all is about "tastes", and consumers choices is not only childish and preposterous, it is useless as an opinion HERE in this discussion ...

And yes i can speak seriously on this matter, i never pretended to any authority, but i object and it is my opinion , i object to superficiality and relativism and consumerism  ...

Music is not mere subjectivity , no more than sound is just a mere subjective phenomenon... I can demonstrate why but it will take too much place...😊

Inform yourself before put a label on me ...

 

 

 

@tylermunns...very eloquently said! Agree totally.

@mahgister “There is no scientific consensus about sound and hearing... what is a sound perceptive quality and information and how we access it ...“

We are humans that experience music.  
Is that something we can agree on?

If the answer is yes, then not even Ludwig Van Beethoven himself can “tell” me, or you, or anyone, what music “is” with absolute authority.  

That person emitting “music” from the onboard speaker of their cell phone in a sonically cacophonous environment (airport, busy urban bus stop, shopping mall, etc.) is experiencing music in a way that is just as valid as you or I listening to music in an immaculately engineered listening room with the highest quality equipment in the world.  
As disagreeable, perhaps even vile I find the former’s behavior to be, as antithetical to music appreciation as I find that behavior to be, I don’t get to “tell” them “what music is.” Perhaps I may muster the gumption to politely ask them to use headphones out of respect to the thousands of other humans around them, but my personal feelings about what music “is” are my own.  
They are not “facts.”  
You are speaking with grave authority on matters that are purely subjective.
 

If we're asking a genie, I'd simply ask for any 100 albums from the early digital era. But, since it's a genie they'd all sound good. I'm picturing virtually all metal albums of the time for starters.

I will add that we are in the same situation with the question of what a "sound" is...

There is no scientific consensus about sound and hearing... what is a sound perceptive quality and information and how we access it ...

There is no practical definition for “music” other than “created sound.”

We know though a little bit more than what you just said here... This is your opinion indeed but not a fact...

First one thing is sure, music created by man is a "sound" production related to the human body/brain/ears ... This is not my opinion here... But a fact...

Then there exist a root of this created "sounds" in the human body...Music and language are born together and are coming from the same root which is the body tripartite basic systems.. ...This is also a fact...

Must i add that this is my opinion to calm you ? ... 😊

Music is not about our taste only , music must be learned the same way in which we must learn how to act our body , that was one of my point; then there exist some different music with different healing and informative power...All is not purely relativistic and about our given "tastes" here as you seems to suggest ... Music grounded in a tradition has not the same value for me than commercial music... And yes the line delimiting them is not clear at all... This is a fact and also an opinion here... 😁

Sorry but there is a value hierarchy that cannot be imposed but is easily spotted by musicians learning their trade... A yoruba drummer for example know this, he know the difference between meaningful rythm which "speak" and rythm which did not "speak" in his language ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZOg4xIiulw&t=741s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oQJZ2TEVI&t=7s

( the best book on music i read is about yoruba drum and sound perception and meaning by the way ) 😋

 

 

As in litterature, harlequin litterature is not Dostoievsky or Mark Twain...

i will add that is is my opinion for sure ...

Who s opinion could it be ? mine...

is it the absolute truth ?

No...

But i bet i am not alone here with this OPINION.... 😊

 

In litterature as in music we MUST LEARN how to understand and appreciate, because our innate taste means little, it is a beginning not an end ...Comic books are not Kafka...

By the way each musical traditions contains an history of consciouness through the way the spirit/body relate to sound in a specific way , extending in millenia sometimes...It is a fact not my opinion ...

Do not say then that in your opinion, all opinions about music are equal, because they are not...

No more in music than in litteratrure and science.... Music is not only a consumers leisure tasteful choice... It is way more IN MY OPINION... 😊

Again, beyond “created sound,” there is virtually no practical definition for what music “is” or what it “is about.”

 

By the way my statements are not " erroneous" they are incomplete .... Calling them "my opinion" or not had nothing to do with their POSSIBLE meaning has you suggested in your own unsatisfying and at the end erroneous relativistic perspective...

Music express sacredness and values not only esthetical arbitrary meaningless choice as a consumer purchasing a product instead of another...

 

Music also contain a part of our consciouness history which is hidden in sounds and rythms...

This is why all musical traditions of the world matter and why we must learn from EACH OF THEM... This has nothing to do about tastes...

@mahgister Quick fix:
Qualifying statements like,
- “music is about visible architecture and rhythmical times”
- “music is not about tonality versus atonality”
- “music is about feeling, willing and thinking”
- “in serialism music is disconnected of the natural rhythms of human metabolism”

with a simple statement of “in my opinion,” or “in my experience” cures such statements of their erroneousness.

@mahgister Quick fix:
Qualifying statements like,
- “music is about visible architecture and rhythmical times”
- “music is not about tonality versus atonality”
- “music is about feeling, willing and thinking”
- “in serialism music is disconnected of the natural rhythms of human metabolism”

with a simple statement of “in my opinion,” or “in my experience” cures such statements of their erroneousness.

Everyone’s opinion is valid. One may be better at arguing the usefulness of their opinion than another, but this has no bearing on the validity of a person’s opinion.
Thusly, if you were to qualify those statements of yours in such a way, they would be entirely valid statements.
When such statements are made without that qualification, their validity is dubious at best, non-existent at worst.

8,000,000,000 people here, each of them with a definition of what music “is” and what music “is about,” each of them perfectly valid.
There is no practical definition for “music” other than “created sound.”

For many people, music is indeed all of the things you said it is not, and is indeed none of the things you said that is. They, just as you, are entirely valid in those definitions.

Many people pick a streaming station and let the algorithms decide the sounds their speakers emit. Music for them is something of a utilitarian aid to daily modern life.
For many people, music is indeed “about” tonality versus atonality.
Many people are non-plussed with music that presents traditionally “beautiful” harmonic and rhythmic content. Something else excites them, music with less traditional harmonic and rhythmic content, something that would likely cause the former person to cover their ears and promptly turn the music off.
Many people are in love with something like Schubert, Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov or, in modern terms, Mancini, Bacharach, and Wilson.
Shoenberg, Boulez and Ligeti, or Beefheart, Can, or late-era Scott Walker won’t do much for them.

Again, beyond “created sound,” there is virtually no practical definition for what music “is” or what it “is about.”

Thanks for your interesting and surprizing story ...

@stuartk 

I definitely recognize that I’m limited by my tastes -- as time goes on, I’m finding less and less music that I want to buy. As mentioned above, I’ve never enjoyed the sound of Classical Vocals. It’s not the music. It’s what I experience as an overall highly exaggerated, unnatural and off-putting quality of the sound.

It’s not clear to me how one could "learn to listen" to a sound that one finds inherently unpleasant/annoying. Care to expound further?

 

 

I know this post was not aimed at me, but since I was part of the conversation with @mahgister , I will reply.

Concerning your 2nd paragraph, my entire evolution in listening to music, has been one case of "learning to listen" to music I initially found "unpleasant".

When I first got into prog (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, PFM, Banco, etc), which for the most part, is full of music that is pleasant sounding. Someone recommended the band Gentle Giant to me. When I tried to listen to them, I was initially taken aback by the dissonances they use, and it made no sense to me. It sounded wrong to me. So, I put their recordings on my shelf and ignored them for probably close to a year. Fast forward many months, and after listening to many other prog bands, I decided to take them off the shelf and give them another listen. It was like a light went off in my brain. What made no sense just months before, was brilliant now. They almost immediately became one of my favorite bands, and remain so until this day. 

It happened again with entire avant-prog subgenre of prog. This is an entire subgenre that, as described by ProgArchices.com, as:

Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:
- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.
Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons.

I did not like anything in this subgenre for years, but then, after spending more time getting used to what these bands were doing, it just started making sense. 

And once again, it happened with atonal and avant-garde classical music, and a big part I think was brought about by love for the aforementioned, avant-prog. I guess my mind was already prepped to hear atonality and dissonance of avant-prog, the same attributes in classical music just made sense.

I guess, I didn't really explain how it happened, except to say, that it happened over time, and usually in quite small increments. 

At first, it was small bit of 'unpleasantness', maybe like a musical section that is supposed to represent war, death, or madness*, that, despite being 'unpleasant', in context to what the music is portraying, sounds 'right', and loaded with emotion.  Then, overtime, those dark and atonal bits, start to have their own sorts of beauty.

*For example: the instrumental middle section of 'Gates of Delirium' by Yes. It is meant to represent a battle. 

Or, 'Plague of the Lighthouse Keepers' by Van Der Graaf Generator. The 23 minute piece represents a lighthouse keeper slowly going mad, and suicidal, from loneliness and abandonment.

It's hard for me to imagine representing either, without using dissonance and atonality. Which some hear as unpleasant, but I hear as loaded with emotion. 

First we cannot replace our musical tastes favorites by other musical choices , especially for example in classical vocal music if we dont like it in general...

Second we must stay open heart and listen to some one dat that can open this closed door for us which is vocal classical music... No doing so this new vocal classical music will not change our basic tastes... They will only improve it by enlarging our scope and deepening our relation with our innate tastes choices...

Third we cannot learn how to listen to "sounds" which are annoying for us...But in all the vocal classical there is songs thar are in now way exagerately annoying... Miracles of naturalness exist... Miracles of expressions that transcend vocal classical to manifest the art of pure expression and not mere singing even beautifully...

I will give 2 examples...

If you dont cry listening that you need a heart...It is no more singing...Because she pray really, she dont merely sing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7K2hJBzTm0

The number of singers able to sing like this are more numerous in heaven than on earth 😊

Now the same in his prime younger years :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GksRp42s3S8&list=RDGksRp42s3S8&start_radio=1

Deep river:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bytFrsL4_4

Crucifixion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiFEOhZ8Jb4

MarIan anderson never studied too much formally and being black opera and lied singer goes up to the top of the world by his voice power alone ...

She can sing ANYTHING, jazz, spirituals, operas, lieds or Bach and be the best there is... It is my favorite singer.... I was shoked when i listened to her the first time... By the way as you i dont like vocal music so much... But there is exceptions... These are some of the exceptions...

Now another contralto;Aafje Heynis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3a9QXnRHK4

 

Another contralto sublime: Kathleen Ferrier...on par with Marian Anderson , which is a feat almost impossible to do...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3J2e-L62bY

 

now another register : Elisabeth Schwarzkopf soprano.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs0vSC9DUhU

 

And a modern opera to help you....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&t=2192s

And now serious thing with only celestial voices:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei88J4lERbk

 

 

Now my favorite choral music album of all time :

I listened to it really more than one thousand evenings, i had  counted it really ...😊

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnZQ0EPuNqk

Schutz was coming back from Italia...He combined styles and created for me his most astounding work, with a rythmic expressive power putting him beside Bach who admired him... This music is like a " drug" , it move us creatively by stimulating enthusiasm....

Close the door, listen and it will not change your taste... It will open your mind to voices from another realm...

 

I definitely recognize that I’m limited by my tastes -- as time goes on, I’m finding less and less music that I want to buy. As mentioned above, I’ve never enjoyed the sound of Classical Vocals. It’s not the music. It’s what I experience as an overall highly exaggerated, unnatural and off-putting quality of the sound.

It’s not clear to me how one could "learn to listen" to a sound that one finds inherently unpleasant/annoying. Care to expound further?

I don’t mean to "pick on" Classical singers but this just happens to be one of the genres most affected by the limiting aspects of my taste.

I’ll be very short:

That genie should bring me 100 that

1. aren’t listed here -- pure mainstream so far

2. not part of any rock/jazz/classical mainstream

3. lots of them should be from Berlin School and 80’s Japanese jazz artists

4. it must include ALL albums from the following bands: Zoviet France and Der Club of Gore

After all, why should I stress genie for Linda Ronstadt or ELP. Plenty of those are still in the bins of the thrift stores...

@mahgister

One thing i discovered is music is less about our tastes than about the way we learn how to hear and how to listen...

I definitely recognize that I’m limited by my tastes -- as time goes on, I’m finding less and less music that I want to buy. As mentioned above, I’ve never enjoyed the sound of Classical Vocals. It’s not the music. It’s what I experience as an overall highly exaggerated, unnatural and off-putting quality of the sound.

It’s not clear to me how one could "learn to listen" to a sound that one finds inherently unpleasant/annoying. Care to expound further?

I don't mean to "pick on" Classical singers but this just happens to be one of the genres most affected by the limiting aspects of my taste. 

 

@mahgister: I love your line "Because doing so I will die with more in me than my limited tastes."

 

After watching my mother die a slow and painful death from brain cancer when I was 14-15 years old, I thought "So that’s it? She’s just gone? Does the soul live on?" Yeah, I know.....questions as old as man.

I decided then and there to assume that what we take with us into the great beyond is that which we absorb into our beings as we live this short life. To me that meant the arts, first and foremost music, which, I believe, reaches deepest into our soul.

 

Albert Einstein: "Life without playing music is inconceivable for me. I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music. I get most joy in life out of music."

Amen, brother.

 

This is precisely why i reacted to your post the way i did...

Most people will feel Bach art of the fugue and Beethoven last quartets as "boring"...

I perfectly understand that you love Elliott Carter... Or any "thorny " contemporary " atonal or others music...

I did not understood "boring" associated with Monteverdi or Gesualdo or Bach...

 

Most people had never learn about music anyway, they dont listen not only Carter or Bach, but they put commercial pop music at the center...

 

Music is deeply rooted in the human body and soul... What we listen to we become...

One thing i discovered is music is less about our tastes than about the way we learn how to hear and how to listen...

Then when they defend their "tastes" they advocate in fact for their limitations... As i did in a way criticizing your "tastes" and advocating for my tastes... I am not perfect.... 😊 I must learn about Eliott Carter more.... Because doing so i will die with more  in me than my limited tastes...I will acquire new one...😁

 

 

I think the most important thing to consider, is context.

We are both debating about classical music, a genre that is only purchased by a few percent of the music buying public.

So, as much as you think the classical music you love is loaded with so much more emotion than the classical music I love, and I may think the the same about the classical music I love...the vast majority of the music buying public is almost oblivious about classical music entirely.

I mean, all you have to do is look at the lists on this thread. You and I are the only ones to mention classical music at all. And this is a forum loaded with music lovers that listen to music that is not in the mainstream.

@mahgister 

I reacted to your provocative claim about Bach being boring for YOU....If you were in pop music i would have not reacted...

For sure , the music you call "thorny" is mostly boring for me...

Then we are on the same subjective footing ...

I, as you did , gave my take...

Music is for me always intimately related to a historical tradition... Be it Persian or classicaL OR jazz...

And for me music is related to body rythms and not only to the mind...

Then any composer who go to far and cut too much link with his tradition appear a bit boring to me and not healthy...

But as you said it is subjective and we even may like the same composer with our own different reasons...

But claiming to be "bored" by Bach art of the fugue and the last quartets of Beethoven is astounding for me coming from someone liking music...

It is a gesture ....😊

You like to be provocative , i reacted...

For me Scriabin or Sorabji or Robert Simpson are not less a giant than Carter...They are not "thorny" for sure...

Take my answer as a "gesturing" answer like your post was...😊

No one go on the same road to the same house... You are right about that...

My best to you...

I think the most important thing to consider, is context.

We are both debating about classical music, a genre that is only purchased by a few percent of the music buying public.

So, as much as you think the classical music you love is loaded with so much more emotion than the classical music I love, and I may think the the same about the classical music I love...the vast majority of the music buying public is almost oblivious about classical music entirely. 

I mean, all you have to do is look at the lists on this thread. You and I are the only ones to mention classical music at all. And this is a forum loaded with music lovers that listen to music that is not in the mainstream.

I stayed up until about 2AM last night, listening to stuff from our lists and found a couple more I missed:

Jennifer Warnes-Famous Blue Raincoat

Holly Cole-Temptation

 

 

 

@mahgister 

No one go on the same road to the same house... You are right about that...

...And a house may have many entrances ;o)

 

I'd have to include something by Glen Hansard, as well as his time in The Frames. @mofimadness , you turned me on to The Frames  🥇

@laoman

I don’t believe all music is of equal artistic merit but the OP stated from the outset that this was to be "just for fun".

Enough said. 

 

 

 

 

 

@mofimadness ,

100 in to small of a number!  My list would include about ninety of the albums you listed plus about ninety that @stuartk listed plus some from others lists and then there’s my additions.  Feeling under the weather this morning, but I’ll try figure out a l list later.

I did not say they were boring. I said they were boring TO ME.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t both of our musical tastes and opinions, subjective?

I reacted to your provocative claim about Bach being boring for YOU....If you were in pop music i would have not reacted...

For sure , the music you call "thorny" is mostly boring for me...

Then we are on the same subjective footing ...

I, as you did , gave my take...

Music is for me always intimately related to a historical tradition... Be it Persian or classicaL OR jazz...

And for me music is related to body rythms and not only to the mind...

Then any composer who go to far and cut too much link with his tradition appear a bit boring to me and not healthy...

But as you said it is subjective and we even may like the same composer with our own different reasons...

But claiming to be "bored" by Bach art of the fugue and the last quartets of Beethoven is astounding for me coming from someone liking music...

It is a gesture ....😊

You like to be provocative , i reacted...

For me Scriabin or Sorabji or Robert Simpson are not less a giant than Carter...They are not "thorny" for sure...

Take my answer as a "gesturing" answer like your post was...😊

No one go on the same road to the same house... You are right about that...

My best to you...

 

"For example, the sound of a classically trained voice is like fingernails on a blackboard"

"Your subjective tastes are not some sort of universal standard by which to measure others’ esthetic (sic) preferences.".
Well some have taste and others like doof doof music.

@mahgister

Music is not about tonality versus atonality... Etc...

I am just stating a personal preference, I am not making any statements on the musical theory.

I just know, that for me, classical music that does happen to be tonal, I find predictable and boring.

Music is about visible architecture and rythmical times ....And musical time is way more complex than physical time...

That is certainly part of what is about. And complex time signatures and rhythms is one of the things that draws me to post WWII classical music.

I prefer Persian and Indian music or chinese and japan to all dodecaphonic , seralism and other for me artificial written system with no possible historical emotional background for the musician interpretation ... It is music without history or feelings...Boring in a word... Silence is better..

I also like Indian and Persian music, Chinese and Japanese, not so much.

And it is nice for you, that you enjoy them more than serial music. I do not.

I am not sure why the lack of historical background is at all important. And I am also not conceding that that is even true. And I have no problems getting all sorts of emotional impact and content from post WWII classical music.

I also have to mention, that serialism is only a small part of the classical music I listen to. Elliott Carter is probably my favorite composer, and in his very long career (he lived to the age of 103, and was composing up until he died), and he never composed a serial piece in all that time.

 

Music is about feeling, willing, and thinking...It is a tool to put consciousness to another level...It is why musical time with his 2 dimensions, horizontal and vertical, instead of a line or instead of a timeless set of notes, is so complex...

I am 100% agreement!

While listening to the classical music that I like, I am constantly feeling, willing, and thinking, and I much more often than not, transported to different levels of consciousness. There have been more times than I can count, where my wife will come into my sound room, and I am so transported by the music of Carter, Wuorinen, Berio, or some other ’thorny’ sounding music, and I am completely unaware of her presence.

In serialism music is disconnected of the natural rythms of human metabolism ...Rythms and times may be cosmical but must not loose their link with the human body...

Again, you are talking only about serialism. The majority of the classical music I listen to, is not serial.

And, even if true, I am not sure why being disconnected from the rhythms of the human body are important, or why I should care?

It’s almost as if you think there is only one way to listen to music, and there is only a limited list of reasons to listen, or attributes that are important.

You’re not implying, that you have the ’correct’ way of listening, and I, and others that enjoy some atonal and thorny sounding music, are incorrect?

You cannot call Bach "art of the fugue " boring... You make me smile at least... 😊

You cannot call Beethoven quartets "boring" and hoping to be taken seriously...Sorry... 😊

I did not say they were boring. I said they were boring TO ME.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t both of our musical tastes and opinions, subjective?

When I listen to those composers, all I hear, is emotions that are obvious and predictable. The classical music I listen to, for me, is also loaded with emotional content, but is not broadcast in neon. It takes some work to understand it, then it will reveal the emotional content. It just takes a different way of listening, than the obvious (to me) emotional content of Beethoven.

Boring means : no surprize, no complexities, no emotions...

I admit Beethoven and Bach have emotion in their compositions, it is just too obvious for me. And yes, I find both of them, (and Mozart, Mahler, Brahms, etc,) to be completely unsurprising.

The classical music I listen to is as complex as any you mention, it is just complex in different ways.

And once again, you continue to talk about nothing but serialism, which I will say again, is just a small portion of the classical music I listen to.

Most of the composers you like had no interest at all for me...Because they lost rythm and time... Musician playing this are robots...

They did not lose rhythm, they just express it in more complex ways. Sometimes over short fragments of music, other times, over the entire piece, with different rhythmic fragments returning, and being modified. There is quite a bit of symmetry in quite a bit of post WWII classical music, it is just expressed differently. It just takes a different way of listening.

I prefer Sun Ra to Schoenberg... Each one has his gods i imagine... 😊

As far as Philip Glass goes. I used to be a fan of minimalism, now, not so much.

As far as Indian classical music goes, I am a fan. I have a decent collection.

And I am also a fan of Sun Ra, although, I do like other avant-garde jazz musicians a bit better. Anthony Braxton, who I have on my list of 100. I probably own about 10 Sun Ra recordings, and saw him live a couple of times.

And again, you continue to go back to Schoenberg and serialism, when the vast majority of the classical music I listen to, is not serial. Not to mention, that Schoenberg, is nowhere near my favorite composer.

 

I read that as a pretty amazing post...

 

Music is not about tonality versus atonality... Etc...

Music is about visible architecture and rythmical times ....And musical time is way more complex than physical time...

I prefer Persian and Indian music or chinese and japan to all dodecaphonic , seralism and other for me artificial written system with no possible historical emotional background for the musician interpretation ... It is music without history or feelings...Boring in a word... Silence is better... I dont deny that some of these works can be interesting and they are , like Berg concerto for example...

i valued improvisation and musician microdynamic management and emotional investment in his improvised interpretation of classical music....

Music is about feeling, willing, and thinking...It is a tool to put consciousness to another level...It is why musical time with his 2 dimensions, horizontal and vertical, instead of a line or instead of a timeless set of notes, is so complex...

In serialism music is disconnected of the natural rythms of human metabolism ...Rythms and times may be cosmical but must not loose their link with the human body... Scriabin i admired so much succeeded in doing this...

You cannot call Bach "art of the fugue " boring... You make me smile at least... 😊

You cannot call Beethoven quartets "boring" and hoping to be taken seriously...Sorry... 😊

Boring means : no surprize, no complexities, no emotions...

I think that the most boring music ever written is the music by Shoenberg serialism...There is no "time" in this music...It is really a simplistic music... A music where rythmical times are evacuated and we are let in a no man’s land of sounds ... This music attracted no more any great interest because composers need a public and need interpreters more than they need a "fancy" abstract new language...

You had never seen what is in Bach art of the fugue , it is like calling Euclidean geometry boring... It is not even wrong, it reflect only your limit not the Euclid geometry status ...

And you cannot answer to me that serialism is like fractal geometry  compared to Euclidean geometry... Because in music time is the central concept and rythm of times not deconstructed forms as Mandelbrot geometry deconstructing Euclidean concepts of dimensions...Because music is rythms of time and times of rythm not visual forms not mere "notes" systems...Serialism is like Chaos theory compared to complexity theory, in complexity theory we see how emerge order from chaos... Serialism is born from classical musical history, it is a "moment" of this history, not his culmination and his abolition in timelessness..

Most of the composers you like had no interest at all for me...Because they lost rythm and time... Musician playing this are robots...

I prefer Charles Ives and Scriabin... Scriabin is a genius who unlike Schoenberg did not create an algebraic system , his genius dictated and improvized  his last sonatas between tonality and atonality in a clever way... There is a place for emotions there ...

For opera try Akhnaten of Philip Glass a masterpiece ressuscitating the spirit of Egypt ...

For something different try : Ostad elahi...Supreme master of rythms...

Or Nikhil Banerjee...A god in India...

And you will see what is  "non boring" music...

I prefer Sun Ra to Schoenberg... Each one has his gods i imagine... 😊

Anyway i apologize for my answer... It is very interesting to have so divergent oppposite opnion... Dont take it personal... I like discussion...

You are not as the average dude then my post is not only a complete reversal of your opinion but a compliment to someone who dare to speak his mind...

 

Music is rythms as the heart is rythms and the cosmos rythms and we need Nature to recognize cosmic rythms and musical history to understand music...We cannot reduce nature to transhumanism 2.0 and reduce music to serialism... Listen to African speaking Yoruba drummers masters to know about non boring music ...Not Schoenberg..

 

Second, as far as Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and other tonal, "common practice" composers go, I find them boring and predictable. My interest in classical music didn’t start until I discovered: atonal, serial, avant-garde, 12 tone, spectralism, ’new complexity’, and, generally, ’thorny’, challenging classical music. Now I am almost obsessed.

@laoman

No Opera, no Beethoven, Bach, Mozart? No Jethro Tull, Rick Wakeman.? I really do not like your list much. There might be 5 or 6 on your list I would want.

 

I am not sure who this is meant for, but I will assume it was for me, since it closely follows my list, and it mentions a couple of prog artists, as well as classical composer.

First of all, as I stated in my 3rd paragraph before my list starts, there are quite a few other bands, musicians, composers that could have made my list. And Jethro Tull is certainly 1 of them. I could have easily had Thick as a Brick, or Passion Play on my 1st list. Wakeman, as great a musician as he is, his solo work does nothing for me. It sounds overblown, and a bit cliché to me. With Yes, he is phenomenal.

Second, as far as Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and other tonal, "common practice" composers go, I find them boring and predictable. My interest in classical music didn’t start until I discovered: atonal, serial, avant-garde, 12 tone, spectralism, ’new complexity’, and, generally, ’thorny’, challenging classical music. Now I am almost obsessed.

And third, I have yet to really get into opera, and not for a lack of trying. I have listened to Alban Berg’s "LuLu" and "Wozzeck", Harrison Birtwistle’s "Minotaur", and while they do have some potential for me to get into them more, I am just so busy discovering non-opera classical music, I just do not have the time.

And for me, it is not because I do not like classically trained voices. I have quite a few contemporary classical pieces, that do have classically trained vocals, but it is not opera.

And lastly, I have a fair number of classical recordings from the likes of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc, from when I was trying to get into classical music many years ago. And every once and a while, I will play something in hopes of having tonal, common practice classical music click with me, but so far, no go.

I will just stick with Carter, Webern, Babbitt, Berio, Maderna, Tower, etc, etc.

Think I’d have to put in some Luna and some Jason Molina and some Silver Jews. Some females, Neko Case, Eva Cassidy, Karen Carpenter, Janis.

I'm sure I'd leave several out.

@slaw...Elvis Costello is one of my favorite male vocalists, but since I only have 100 albums to choose from forever, I picked mine for the music and for being able to listen to over and over and over.  Couldn't choose one.

I left a TON of artists off I'm sure, but again, it's much harder than you'd think.  I encourage everyone to try and see for yourself...

@mofimadness 

Wait... "no box sets" ? How did I miss that? !  ;o)

 

@laoman

There might be 5 or 6 on your list I would want.

... and there might be none on your list that I would want. For example, the sound of a classically trained voice is like fingernails on a blackboard, to my ears/brain. How would this be relevant, should you post a list? What if I were to say to you "Opera? Yech! How can you stand to listen to that "?

Your subjective tastes are not some sort of universal standard by which to measure others’ esthetic preferences.

 

Hey @mofimadness , 

I remembered reading that you had completed, at that time, your Costello collection. So kind of surprised you didn't list one rekkid by him. Not a criticism, just wondering....🙂