@m-db Thanks for the reply. I have the "Ode to Billy Joe" on the MFSL SACD and that was among the songs I used in the evaluation of various digital cables in the streaming section of my system vs the CD/SACD playback side. If memory serves me correctly it is in Qobuzz as Hi-rez and standard in Tidal. Appreciate the info on Lorraine and Christian, I'll be able to find something of theirs between the two services.
@steve59 Thanks for the reply. I'm sure they do but my concerns were more aligned with actual subwoofer speed and being able to match up to the speed of response of the panels and 8" woofers in the Acoustats. I'm sure the Paradigm subs work great. I also wanted control by phone which the ML's have, and very well done at that. You can control things down to the individual hz and db.
@doctors11 Thanks for the reply. Between Qobuzz and Tidal I probably have 100 or so albums saved. I have 20 radio presets on the Cambridge I like across genres and depending on mood I'll listed until I find a sound I like and then see what else the artist has available on the services. It's been very rewarding so far...... especially since we are mostly back in due to Delta. Wife is teaching her daughter Old School Thai Tarot Card reading remote via tablet and a "Line" app and I go in my room and play music. It's all good.
|
@midareff1
Thanks for that. Sounds like it's time to forget about the gear and just relax to some great tunes. That's the goal we all strive for eh? I'm still dealing with some life stuff but hopefully sometime next year I'll be diving in to all this head first. |
Paradigm subs even the most affordable line use ARC room correction and it's usually easy to get a discount on their stuff |
Nice to hear your entertaining journey in the deep end. As a Double Bassist I'd suggest another Patricia Barber interpretation from her twenty seven year old MoFi 45 RPM release of Cafe Blue's "Ode To Billy Joe." Popularized by Bobby Lee Gentry your guests will be sing-along familiar but slapped in the face with the fidelity of Jim Anderson's microphone placement and his unique mic pre-amplification recording of Michael Arnopol's instrument. The gain on my DD Plus' is almost off for the LP recording. And of course, anything from the White House Bassist Christian McBride, is a lesson in the importance of intonation and time. Speaking of intonation, young talent Lorraine Campert. Scroll down the You Tubes. https://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instruments-for-sale/old-double-basses/james-coleAn ear opining example of post production decisions or capitulation can be clearly heard on most any system or TV with 'McCARTNEY 3,2,1' currently on Hulu. Rick Rubin and Paul McCartney discuss many of the groups writing influences. Using what seems to be original recordings and a like for like board Rubin lays bare the level of control of McCartney's Bass lines and the productions masking of some of the most 'to die for' Bass tone and technique that never quite made it clearly on their releases. All the best M |
@ doctors11
I guess this count be a 4 - 5 month report card on the ML. Final install was with the 90 degree RCAs from Audioquest and a 9' run of Blue Jeans Cables LC-1. Will consider changing the LC-1 to Straighwire Encore if a nice used 9' pair ever comes up on fleebay. Probably would not be able to hear a difference anyway but would like to see, but not for $400.
Integration finished up nicely with the hand off to the 8" woofers in the Acoustats and their subsequent handoff to the panels all seamless. Just various instruments playing what they play from low organ and double bass/fiddle all the way up. Familiar pieces with new notes to be heard on the bottom. Zero regrets looking backwards on this one.
|
Great stuff @midaref1 ! I'll probably be going down that road in about a year from now...let's see if it remains in the number 1 spot at that time.
Now it's time for you to just enjoy your music! |
@doctors11 I guess this is the last post by me on this subject unless someone wants to PM me about some aspect of this I haven't either posted on or been clear about. Sub is now up on spikes, Audioquest 90 degree RCA adapters, .Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 cables ..Audioquest NRG-X3 power cord, on it's spikes + some additional weight for the spikes to couple... some additional lead weight on the top to help the spikes get solid through the carpet...... no consequential changes anticipated.
Karrin Allyson's In Blue Album..... Qobuzz ... beautiful. Lots of low double base, some organ and low piano notes... all articulated beautifully.
Patricia Barber's A Distortion of Love Album.... also Qobuzz beautiful ...
Lots of low double base, some organ and low piano notes... all articulated beautifully.
If you want a ghetto banger sub this may or may not be for you... I have no idea. If you like jazz, club and lounge presentations and such I can tell you this sub will follow a double bass riff to the bottom that the double can play..
Sub + decent power cord + decent cables and RCA adapters... a $1100, maybe a bit more.... what's your bottom octave worth?
|
@doctors11 Thanks for the kind words. My area of interest is the same as yours. I want to follow a double bass riff up and down the scale to the bottom with definition and reproduce anything that a regular acoustic guitar and piano can do at the lowest hz notes. In my case this sub is for the low octave from 20 hz to 40 hz with my woofers picking up there for basically 2.5 octaves to roughly 250 hz where the woofers start the crossover to the panels. The woofers were originally rated at -3db @ 30 hz but I'd say it's more like 40 hz now and the ML is adjustable by the hz and by the db so the only catch point is listening to a variety of recordings so one albums mastering techs' preferences do not become your settings. . IEC cable in hand and waiting on Amazon on the adapter.
|
Thank you so much @midareff1 for these write ups. It's been hard to find many customer reviews with well thought out details like yours. I value tight accurate bass over all else and I have space constraints so as of now this is a clear first choice for me. I will be using the room correction and upon further reading I was impressed that they recognize that android phones differ greatly in their built in mic, so they have software that measures your individual phone mic before proceeding to run the room correction. Pretty cool! |
@doctors11 An update for this Saturday...... April 24th... 90 degree Audioquest RCA adapters are here and the sub is now on Blue Jeans Cable LC-1, 3 meter length. Admittedly, not my first choice but an affordable one until I have an opportunity to acquire my first choice, LOL, pre-owned. Audioquest NRG-X3 cord is due in today as is an Audioquest 90 degree position 1 IEC adapter. I plan on using 10 - 20 pounds of additional top cabinet weight to make sure the sub is very solidly spiked to the ground. It currently is on its rubber spike covers and has maybe 10 hours of the recommended 50 hours of break in time. If I was going to comment at this point I would say the articulation of double bass riffs up and down to the bottom (and organ) was completely superior to the NHTs. I also feel I’m getting very close to fully dialed in at this point and if I can match them to the roll-off of 30 year old 8" bass drivers in my Acoustats you can match them to anything. Presently set @ -20 db, 40 hz third order low pass, 20-30 hz level at +2 db.... everything is adjustable by the db, hz, and phase angle degree Very worthwhile for my listening so far and will only get better when I get it off the rubber feet...
|
@doctors11 My music room is carpeted. I am connected with standard RCAs at the moment but that does put some pressure on them and I can't pull the spike covers and set the sub into the carpet and underlying concrete. Probably should not even have them connected this way but I was careful. Just order up a pair of Audioquest 90 degree RCA adaptors and an Audioquest 90 degree IEC adaptor on the same page as the sub... ... together it's maybe another $40. You will need the 90 degree IEC if you plan on upgrading the cord anyway.
|
Exciting times. Are the 90 degree RCAs necessary in the front firing configuration? I was under the impression there was enough room for standard interconnects. I'll probably do front firing as well. |
@charliee it would seem to me that if you have a volume control you have a variable electrical result of it's the mechanical movement. I would tend to think that variable output could be paralleled to this or any sub.
@doctors11 90 degree RCAs came in last night so this AM I should be able to get them plugged in and the spike covers off the legs to provide a much better grounding. I believe my 9 foot RCA temporary pair should be here today and a 90 degree IEC adapter and an Audio quest cord tomorrow. Making progress.
|
|
Hmmmm.. I think he might be a bit more concerned about his customer's satisfaction rather than whether or not they are using a sub. I think a sub can have a place in a system.. in mine it's to handle <40 hz down to it's floor so I can hear them run the riffs up and down to the bottom of a big double bass. Patricia Barbara's first cut on A Distortion of Love album at near the 3 minute mark and Karrin Allyson on the first cut of the In Blue album.... and a few others on there as well and many others I'm thinking that feeling a customer should be deprived the enjoyment of hearing these instruments with articulation and detail because he's not a fan of using a sub just doesn't work for me.
|
Frank seems to be pretty fussy about his creations, and not a fan of using a sub. He may not like that idea too well. It may be safer for me to go with REL :) But I do have a top drawer amp technician friend nearby I could use should I get the needed info.
The knobs are input selector and volume. |
Charlee... are the knobs on the front volume or bias adjustments? I think I would contact the designer and ask him where to tap into the circuit to get the variable line level (the pore-amp signal) separated out before final amplification. Truly should not be that difficult.
|
midareff1. I have a Finale Audio 300B integrated amp. No pre out on it, just two sets of RCA inputs. So to use a sub I would have to do a speaker level hook up. As mentioned in the manual the SWT-X will not function when wired this way. I assume what you mean by splitting is, splitting the signal from pre to amp? That may work, if one had separates. |
@charliee I suspect you mean receiver? Which probably has tape outputs which will do the same thing. If you are using a stand alone amplifier you may be able to split the line level input signal.. where there is a will there is a way.
|
In reading this thread I thought I had discovered the perfect sub for me, the Martin Logan Dynamo 800X. But sadly it isn't. My amp has no pre outs, so I have to use the speaker level connections. But the SWT-X wireless system is not compatible with that configuration. Bummer, the search continues. |
Your making me laugh now..... that's the heavy bass stuff Heebie and Jeebie listened too in the low rider cruising the hood to check on their ladies to make sure they out street workin'...
I have both the Anthem app and the Anthem that seems built in to the ML app. Keeping in mind that my specific application is nothing like full scale for the sub I surmise it will work fine. OTOH, I'm in a fully treated room and expect the sub to perform from maybe 40 hz (+/-) to 22hz or so that feature does not really apply to my application.
I'm getting close.. both rooms now. AFAIC, very capable sub I could easily recommend (as Stereophile did) and a winner most certainly in it's price range. I suspect it will be even better with a better power cord and interconnects up on it's spikes.
Stay tuned.
|
"
urbane thug tunes"...that got me laughing. I don't even know what that is!
I forgot to ask will you be using the built in Anthem Room Correction? Curious how well that works. |
@doctors11 had a long paragraph about tuning the NHTs using the CMAs I recorded Sunday + some passages from Fear The Walking Dead. Real PIA having to move a chair and plant to get to the back of one and the other from the balcony but it is what it is. Too much stuff is recorded with such miserable mastering there is great variation from movie to movie and such.They will get there.
The ML sub is slowly coming along.. much friendlier on the back and knees since everything is Bluetooth adjust. Should have my Audioquest Z3 power cord, Audioquest power cord adapter and RCA 90 degree adapters and some heavily copper braid shielded 3M RCA cables in by COB Friday. Then I can get it on it's spikes and see how it likes urbane thug tunes compared to jazz blues and such while I figure out what interconnects it will finally get. Stay tuned.
|
Sorry about losing the write up, that hurts! Thanks for the short version, sounds like they might be a keeper. Looking forward to your final thoughts. |
@doctors11 I wrote you about three pages of exactly what and where and clicked a wrong spot and it all went away. I’ll juts rewrite this very briefly... the controls mount under the sub when front firing so to use a real power cord I need an Audioquest IEC 90 degree adaptor and 90 degree RCA adaptors. Both ordered as well as some double shielded 3 meter interconnects for the run. All should be in before the end of the week and at that point I can get it down on it’s spikes through the carpet instead of the rubber floor savers. Have about 7 hours on it towards a 50 hour break in per ML. The Flying Pigs album is not useful for dialing it in but the Patricia Barber I cited is near perfect. I can follow a bass fiddle riff all the way down the scale to a Korg type organ ultra low warble note for volume, definition and interaction with the woofer modules of the Acoustats. Playing with settings now in the -24 db overall, +2 db 20 - 30hz, 45 hz 4th order cut out filtering, no phase adjustment. Probably wing up lower of the filtering, need cables, more break in hours and to be on the spikes to get further. Stay tuned.
|
@midareff1 How's it going with the new subs? |
Boy can I relate to that. These 62 year old knees will absolutely love not getting on the floor, getting up...over and over to get the sound right!
Good luck with the unboxing and set up. Pics would be nice. |
@doctors11 ... I've been getting a lesson on how valuable adjustments from the listening position can be for setting subs Been trying to dial in the two 10" powered subs in the living room video system. Test tones, sound pressure meters.. back and forth endless times. I think I'm getting close... I have them crossing over before they start to "bloom" low male vocals and I can still hear the warp engines on the Enterprise. Have to spend some more time testing different movies and programs but at least I'm in the ball park now. ML sub die in late tomorrow.... so it starts again.
|
I'm new here so I probably need a few more posts before I can do PM's...thanks for trying. Really looking forward to your thoughts on the sub. Keep us posted. |
@doctors11 Thanks for the kind words. I repeated a PM, hopefully this will get to you. I feel the same way about ARC and whether or not it works just the ability to fully control.the sub in small increments from the listening position rather than back and forth making minor adjustments for what seems like weeks is a huge plus. I already have .75 of a db control over the woofers in the Acoustats via a 47 step Goldpoint passive attenuator in the circuit that handles the bass amplification so control over slopes and finite volume steps will be very useful in getting things dialed in just right. You can download the Martin Logan app and set it on demo and see what you have control over. ... All the way to the right in the photo you see a black box immediately to the right of the right Acoustat... that was the NHT B10 d sub that's now part of the living room system and where the replacement will go..
|
Wow, that's a beautiful room! My room is much smaller and could do with an even smaller sub but this one checks all the boxes. I'm intrigued by the inclusion of ARC, and the ability to customize the set up with your particular phone's internal mic. Seems well thought out.
I didn't see the PM. |
|
@m-db Thanks for writing back. It's not so much the smartphone to calibrate anything. It is, and always will be my ears. OTOH, being able to adjust volume by +/- a db, slope, and eq it in three places within it's response band from my listening chair should be terrific. I'm trying to dial in a pair of 10's in the living room system (5.2) now and to get to one it's move the chair and slide over the plant to get to it and the other has to be accessed from the rear which means open the sliding doors to get to the back from the balcony. I'll probably never get them exactly where I want them due to the PIA factor.
@boxer12 Thanks for writing back. Perhaps I could dress them up as a totem poles? ... LOL, in reality there are already tower traps, bass traps and studio traps in place at the front of the room in addition to side and rear panels. A couple of 45.5" high sub towers just won't fit, even if I wanted them too. I'll place my order tomorrow AM with MD if they don't collect Florida sales tax, if they have started it will be Bezosed and be here Friday.
|
That Martin Logan sub is also available at Crutchfield which has a generous return policy (check for specifics on subs) and a reputation for great customer service as does Music Direct. Martin Logan products go on sale about twice a year for a considerable discount, might be worth the wait.
I'm seriously considering this sub for a small music only system so I'll be following this closely. |
OP:
They are rather intimidating to look, but "brute force" isn't something I'm hearing (although they could be adjusted that way... like any other sub) while listening to them. The nice thing about having eight 10" woofers is they don't have to move much & as such, are very fast. I completely understand not wanting to wait however. |
A smartphone to calibrate extra low frequency seems questionable but way better than no EQ and remote control.
I've owned six Velodyne Acoustics subwoofer's beginning with the ULD and currently two DD Plus' for the past eleven years.
A failed remote receiver in my early DD was replaced for free well out of warranty but prior to the sale of the company.
I don't think there's anything out there that provides the convenience of the Velodyne Parametric Filter Frequency and Level drag and drop adjustment for eight individual frequency bands not to mention Velodyne's other features that I use often.
By the way DD-10 Plus measures 13"W x 14.2"H x 16.5"D.
Good luck with your search.
|
@ artemus_5 thanks for the response. The 9i is listed at -6 db at 29 hz. That's really not the direction I want to go and prefer a product more advanced on the phone control technology side.
@ oldhvymec thanks for the response. There is one in every crowd, isn't there?!
@ m-db Thanks for the response. I am aware they are alive and well and producing and selling new product. What I don't see is any advances in phone app control tech. The NHT C doesn't even have a damping setting (movie, music) so beyond the really nice NHT black piano lacquer finish I think I can do considerable better. . I made a conscious decision to upgrade both rooms low frequency response rather than try and get something repaired in Miami. Boxing and shipping a 15 year old sub for repairs didn't seem to make much sense to me either and I have already given it to a friend who likes to try to do repairs like this would most likely entail.. It's already been picked up......I kept the screw in spikes and power cord.I like NHT gear.... I have a bedroom system which has their original video tower 5.1 set with their 12 sub which I bought after two Velodyne's failed right after their warranty expired. I think 3 NHT powered subs in one house may be enough. :-)..
|
NHT is still producing and selling products online from their Stone Road location in Benicia, California within view of the Carquinez Straits. I've be able to have a legacy product repaired. https://www.nhthifi.com/pages/contact |
|
FWIW, I have had Rel Subs for over 15 yrs with no reason to move elsewhere. Some talk about its lack of 20 hz bass and its expense. I just know it works for me, a drummer who LOVES a good bass line more than most. I can't say the others are inferior. But I KNOW how easily the Rel's integrate and how they add, not just bass but expand the whole musical range. The T7i or T9i will work, except for the depth which is 15". |
Thanks, @midareff1 - I will check out that Patricia Barber track. |
@ghosthouse4 thanks again... I have a test track for you as well. It has some lower guitar notes and an organ note the NHT B10 d could not handle, the C10 did better but not decently. It’s on a Patricia Barber album, "A Distortion of Love", 24 bit FLAC on Qobuzz, I suppose Tidal has it as well. I believe it’s on cut 1, "Summertime", but without a sub in the system today I can’t tell you where it is time wise in the cut as the 8" woofers in the Acoustat modules simply didn't acknowledge it’s existence. While they do a fabulous job fleshing out vocals and instruments below the panels range their ability to do bass fiddle and low organ notes is somewhat (LOL) compromised. They were rated -3db at 30 hz when new three decades ago and could use help down there now, especially with by a sub with contour controls. The ML is rated 24-200 hz with controls for +/- 10 db @ 20-30Hz Level. The B10 d was rated -3 db @ 29 hz and the C10 was rated @ -3db at 22 hz. I’m going to sleep on it tonight but I seem to be convincing myself that ML from MD is right for my application.
|
midareff1
Your "leaning" certainly makes sense to me. I’ve a high regard for Music Direct given several purchases from them and a couple no hassle returns. Don’t think you can go wrong buying there. Good luck! |
@donvito .. thanks for the info. Unfortunately there are no real "dealers" with retail stores in my area, just custom installer dealers, and they only deal through stores. It is a very interesting product and if this was for a home theater application it might be AOK and I would probably take a shot. I have a real concern about the response speed of this unit being able to match the response speed of the 8" woofers and panels. While the NHT B10 d could match the NHT C10 couldn't or I would have stayed with it. Instead they are both doing service in living room home theater..
@ghosthouse4 .... thanks for your response. 1) is certainly true. I recently upgraded a digital front end including power and digital cables and this hobby knows no limits. 2).. LOL, might be true but until it proves itself in my system is isn't true and many have marched in with gear and left with it. Setting a sub with a phone app and room correction software is a new world for me after correcting my room with ASC traps, tubes and panels. I wrote down the recommended test track and will try it. Stereophile shows a recommendation for several of their larger subs and that does count for something. I think I'm starting to lean to the Martin Logan unit due to 60 day satisfaction guarantee from MDirect and the similarity of designs in Martin Logan's brand with their electrostatic hybrids and my Acoustats. I tried their app in Demo mode and find it pretty amazing too, better than 70 trips to the back of the sub-woofer to turn dials. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
@boxer12 ... appreciate the response. 45.5" high sub-woofer tower is not what I had in mind. ... nor is a three month wait. This is more a story of speed, accuracy and sophistication instead of brute force.
|
+1 for the "test track" ghosthouse lists above.
FWIW, I'm very happy with the Tekton 4-10 subs. There was about a 3 month wait time for mine though. |
If it was movies only I'd think it might be perrfect.
@midareff1 If you were looking for an SVS product for movies, one of their ported subs would probably be the better option. The SB1000s are sealed as are (to the best of my knowledge) the 1000 Pro subs. I use mine exclusively for music with both Totem Forest and Silverline Prelude Plus speakers (6.5" mid-range/bass driver & 3.5" drivers, respectively). Both Forests and Preludes are ported. I run them full range. The Forests rarely need them. Subwoofer integration with either speaker brand is seamless. Crossover, Phase and Gain are continuously adjustable. Bass is fast and tight. Once properly set up, you don't know the subs are on until you turn them off (well, aside from the little blue diode in an upper corner). Of course, this is all my room, my ears, blah blah blah. Three rules of audio: 1) You can always spend more; 2) There's always something that'll sound better; 3) Pursuing #1 doesn't guarantee #2. Nice bass "test track": Bela Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hippo. Good luck with your decision. |
|
JL is expensive, but ... their auto room correction and integration software has great results.
|
Thanks for the response. I looked at the SVS and it does tick many of the right boxes, size, return-ability and remote app. I'm just not sure of the ability of a 12" sub at that price point to be able to run with the 8" woofers and panels on music. If it was movies only I'd think it might be perrfect. I do have more reviews to get into though, thanks for taking the time to respond.
|
Hello @midareff1 How important is a 10" driver vs, say, 12" if overall size is under 14"? The 1000 Pro Series Sub from SVS is under 14" in height and width, though a bit over 14" in length. From their website: - Dimensions | 13.5" (H) 13" (W) 14.76" (D)
The 1000 Pro series replaces the SB1000 series that I own and have been very happy with. SVS provides a 45 day in-home audition and will actually cover shipping both ways (i.e., including returns) to support an audition. Little to risk in auditioning them if they’ll fit your space. https://www.svsound.com/collections/1000-pro-series-subwoofers |
