You Cant Buy It but you Can Build It

@mahlman , no I am not debating myself. Being the SOB that I am I am simply stating reality for what it is. If you want to cut yourself short for whatever reason that is your business but trying to convince people that you can have decent bass with woofers that do not move is another thing all together. Then you back that up by saying you do not like it (bass). If it does indeed hurt your ears that is awful and I do sympathize with you.

My subwoofers were designed for music not Star Wars although they do the Star Wars thing just fine. That was not the intension. 

Feeling like you are at a live concert requires low bass. There is no way around this. Without it you have a run of the mill Hi Fi. Might be a great run of the mill Hi Fi but, it will not be convincing in the least. Having said this rather harshly I have to admit that realistic sound is not everybody's goal for one reason or another but, nobody has ever told me this is not the ultimate target for the serious hobbyist and my point of reference when evaluating systems.  What other reference can you have?

Assiduous application of solipsism. Your reality not mine.

Back in 1999 I got the idea to build a DIY fully horn loaded system with folded corner horns back in the corners and wide range horns (Oris 150 horns with AER BD3 drivers) and Fostex t900a bullet tweeters out in the room where they would provide a better image. DSP would correct for the great difference of distance to the various drivers.  It was 2004 before I found a DSP that would accomplish everything I wanted.  That was a DEQX  HDP4 Preamp/DSP.  After I got everything together and playing I was less than thrilled with the results.  Since then I have changed woofers, bass horns, wide range drivers, all three power amplifiers and reprogrammed the DEQX a dozen or more times including one final reprogramming using the services of a factory trained DEQXpert.  The final results exceeds all my expectations.  My audiophile friends and I agree that they sound great.  In addition to beautiful music I am also rewarded with the tremendous satisfaction of having conceived of my ideal speakers and then building them.  A photo of my horns may be found in my profile.

@mahlman Lots of good effort there, but I don't understand the off the shelf computer. General service computer not quality server. If truly diy, why don't you build diy server, sure you could do much better than present. Really need lps with any server as well.

 

Most of my streaming chain is made up of off the shelf diy modified equipment, including server.  I can tell you first hand that computer isn't coming close to extracting full potential of your system.

@kingharold     That is an interesting looking system. Wish you had better pictures though.

 

@sns   I know that is the general consensus but way to many people have come through here, many with great systems, with praise for the setup for me to doubt the quality this particular PC produces. I am not clever enough to tell you why this one works so well I can only say it does. Remember that the hi def driver from the audio card maker Reaktek is what made it outstanding and not the box as it came from Dell.

  So what exactly are you using and why?

I'm using highly modded Macmini. Uptone MMK dc internal power supply, Uptone JS 2 lps, Stripped of virtually every service, including those only accessed via DOS command. No wifi, wifi antenna removed, upgraded RAM and SSD, shielding for RFI.

 

Lots of internal noise generated within computers, noise is enemy of resolution.

Bob Carver's The Cube sub was indeed 12" x12" x12" and went down to 2Ohz loud! Long excursion butyl surround and a 2000watt class D amp (the size of a chocolate bar) inside. Now that's innovative thinking! Ditto for his Amazing Speaker from 1990 - four high-Q 12" woofers mounted vertically on one side of a six-foot trapezoidal open baffle crossed over passively at 100hz to a 60" ribbon mid/tweeter! 20hz to 20khz for $3000. Why bother with big horn-loaded boxes and complex active crossovers with multiple amps? 

I had that little carver subwoofer and it pressurized the room good, but didn't sound very good. My friend has the carver amazings, they aren't built very good and his apogee's blow them away in sound quality.

@sns      I agree with noise and funny things can cause them. Going to all SSD hard drives eliminated some and my corded mouse was guilty of more when moved while the stereo system was on. Beyond that there was and is no hum or noise audible when everything is turned up and the room is dead quiet with no music on. If I can't hear anything under those conditions I don't worry about things and leave them alone. As small as that Macmini is I can see you having interference where the much bigger PC box my Dell Precision resides in has components far more spaced out.

  @jasonbourne52  I know deep bass can be had that way but I still believe that a single fold horn with a cloth pleated woofer that hardly has excursion visible at fairly loud levels generates the cleanest sound. It would have been far easier to go the way you went as there are many DIY plans out there for these little box subs. At the end of the day precise sound was the main consideration for my build after getting to the wanted bass notes. There is a superior presence to lower notes that the club thump large excursion boxes just can't do, in my opinion. I know some of my friends really like the club thump though and build or buy just for that. Your small sub in my world would do Star Wars good but not pipe organ music.

Noise you can hear is not the problem, its internally generated noise raising noise floor, supressing signal/info/resolving power. Noise floors that aren't heard at idle do exist, you'll never understand until you experience.

 

Surprised a diy doesn't understand or experienced this.

@sns  OK I will bite. So how do you know this has existed on your setup and what did you do to stop it. I would also point out that just because you have had problems in this area does not mean I have thus experiences may differ.

  I guess part of my verification process involves people bringing their favorite music with them when they visit and telling me what they hear. Of course one could say that there is too much time between when they listen at home and when they listen here for the comparison to be valid. Over time though and with differing ears I reach a conclusion about my work and none complain about fidelity. 

  At some point in time even if others have found a way to tweak output to be better in their eyes that does not mean the next person will like it. I am really close to not looking for further improvements as I am quite happy with what I have and any fiddling is for academic purposes without much hope for real improvements. You come up with good suggestions and specifics that would apply to my system, and not be MacMini specific, I just might try them. My suspicions right now are that your tiny little PC has issues with interference mine won't have due to extreme overcrowding of components.

@jasonbourne52 , Bob Carver does things just because he can. The cube has to take such long excursions its distortion increases dramatically at volume and sometimes you can even hear the driver moving. His best item in it's day was the Phase Linear 700, the first decent sounding high power transistor amp.

@mahlman , put on anything with a little low bass in it and turn it up to your usual listening level. Put your hand on the bass horn say just inside the mouth. Feel that vibration? Any vibration you feel is audible distortion. Getting any large structure not to vibrate at bass frequencies is extraordinarily difficult. This is the problem with bass horns. They add way too much coloration. You would literally have to make the horn out of concrete. Getting a small enclosure not to resonate is difficult enough but a horn is virtually impossible. There are very few horns that make it below 30 Hz. The K horn is already down 4 dB at 33 Hz. A horn that makes it down to 18 Hz would be huge and even more difficult to control. The driver is happy as a clam, the horn itself is an audiophile nightmare which is why you do not see or hear many of them. 

I don't know why you infer I'm having issues, on the contrary. I know from experience that general use computer not good for server, I used laptop prior to present solution.

 

I'll just touch on a couple issues with laptop, all those needless processes, noise, switching power supply, noise.

 

I think you need to do some research on what specialized servers actually do in improving sq. Do you seriously believe the many audiophiles purchasing and/or diy specialized audio system servers are all delusional? Or could it be they actually heard real improvements. Go over to audiophilestyle, many computer/streaming experts over there.

 

I have nephew, new to streaming, just like you he insisted his laptop sufficient for audiophile usage. I mentioned to him same issues, he's done his research, now prepared to upgrade server. He's realized perhaps he was wrong, willing to open up to new experience.

 

I always thought diy most open minded and experiential learners, sounds like you've made up your mind.

@sns   Oh I do have an open mind I just assumed with all your PC warnings you had troubles to solve. You mention a list of things you did to make your MacMini right so I figured you felt there was a need too.

 

  I agree on the laptops can be a problem and the Dell precision laptop I have does not sound as good as the  Dell Precision workstation I use as a music server does. I am not sure where you get the idea I am using a laptop from.

  If you are talking about internet or wifi music streaming I don't do that. I have not been impressed with streaming I have heard being any better at best than what I do on my own.

 Yes I do believe many "audiophiles" do waste money and have all sorts of gear to fix their problems that resulted from the choices they made. I think there is a common mindset that exists that determines x number of boxes or pieces of gear and special wires are needed to have fidelity because peer opinion research says so. I thought that with two way speakers for years and believed three ways were the only way to go until I got a set of serious Klipsch Pro two ways.

 "I always thought diy most open minded and experiential learners, sounds like you've made up your mind."

  Indeed I have until someone shows me something better. I have a question for you. Why are you so sure what I have done is not as good or better than what you have done? How can you be so certain you have the best answers and that mine are not when we have never heard each others systems to be able to judge that? Fairly bold final answer assertions on your part.

 

@mijostyn  No actually I feel no vibration as it is made out of 25MM Baltic Birch. I am aware of cabinet resonance problems. If you are ever near southern middle Tennessee I invite you to stop in and hear for yourself. Until you have your comments are just assertions of what you think my horns have to be doing. I will grant you the large size of  horn to sound good and go down below 30hz is not something dainty and petite. Yes very few are out there for size considerations as most are not willing to go large. Does not mean a horn can't sound really good. I believe an all horn system done right is unbeatable.

@mijostyn --

"... put on anything with a little low bass in it and turn it up to your usual listening level. Put your hand on the bass horn say just inside the mouth. Feel that vibration? Any vibration you feel is audible distortion. Getting any large structure not to vibrate at bass frequencies is extraordinarily difficult. This is the problem with bass horns. They add way too much coloration."

This is grossly incorrect and an assertion that clearly doesn’t rest in experience - period. My counter reply here would apply even at SPL’s where most typical commercial subs would’ve left the building, but you’re talking "usual listening levels"? Come on. I’ve you have ever listened to a pair horn subs in a home environment, which VERY few people ever have, you would know that they - properly implemented (and this goes for any sub principle) - produce a smooth, effortless and enveloping bass, quite different even from direct radiating designs. They may be big structures, but made of high quality plywood or even MDF they're sufficiently sturdy as the internal horn path acts as effective bracing, which is furthermore reinforced with additional bracing to support the horn path itself. Moreover the horn acts as a low-pass filter and thus filters out harmonics and driver induced noise that would otherwise be readily exposed from direct radiators which are working much harder being much less sensitive. Horn subs produce "way too much coloration"? No, sir, it’s the other way ’round.

"You would literally have to make the horn out of concrete. Getting a small enclosure not to resonate is difficult enough but a horn is virtually impossible. There are very few horns that make it below 30 Hz. The K horn is already down 4 dB at 33 Hz. A horn that makes it down to 18 Hz would be huge and even more difficult to control. The driver is happy as a clam, the horn itself is an audiophile nightmare which is why you do not see or hear many of them."

The predominant reason you don’t see horn subs in home environments is because so very few are available and that they’re very big. Oh, and the few that are are typically very expensive. Please name me a couple of commercially available, non-DIY horn subs that not only you but audiophiles at large are actually aware of. Horn subs aren’t disregarded by audiophiles for some speculated flaws of theirs, but because by and large they’re simply not part of the audiophile narrative.

Great bass requires big size, and proper implementation here is automatically assumed. 20Hz honest reproduction from a horn sub necessitates roughly 20 cubic feet of enclosure volume. Sure, that’s a lot, but it is manageable if you set your mind to it. As Arnold (and Nike) would’ve said: Just do it!! ;)

 

@mahlman This isn't you vs I thing. Whether laptop or tower, there are better servers than general service computer. You don't have to take my word for it, again, do the research. Better yet, try a server engineered for audio only, nothing beats the experience of trial and error.

 

The experienced diy understands there are many things still to learn and experience. The curious desire experience, not afraid to admit they may not know everything. I listen and learn from those with experience beyond my own. I'm not trying to teach you anything, just telling you what I learned and experienced first hand, all credit goes to experts further along learning curve. All my diy work based on this philosophy.

 

 

@phusis  "produce a smooth, effortless and enveloping bass, quite different even from direct radiating designs."

 You bet they do. Hard to convey the impact they make to people who have not heard good horns. One of my favorite sound effects to play as a demo for people is Japanese Fireworks. Just like real life and the sound is so precise and quick and if you want to turn it up there is even a concussive wave that will hit you. And drums and stringed instruments with none of the lag time moving massive cones with large excursion create. Closest to real life as I have ever heard.

@sns  I suppose it is possible. I have people who stop in on occasion to hear the big horns that tell me the same thing. I encourage them to bring that gear they think so highly of with them next time and lets see. No one has brought gear with them but they have come back to listen again. Right now I am not dumping a bunch of cash on things that might work better when peer review plus my ears and curves tell me what I have does work.

 

@phusis, sorry lad, it would appear your experience is lacking. I have heard and built Horn subwoofers. Mahlmans's sense of vibration is not good. I hope he is not diabetic. The other answer would be that his horns do not go very low which is in keeping with his other posts.  Yes, horns are very efficient but, bass is bass and it is very powerful and hard to contain. Any subwoofer, horn or otherwise putting out 20 Hz at 85 dB is going to shake and it is going to shake the entire house. Making one that does not vibrate with just the distortion produced by the driver is virtually impossible. There are examples that come close, Magico's Q subs come to mind. I might be able to do better. We shall see. I have been designing and building subwoofers for almost 40 years.

As for horns being the best type of driver, they have their advantages. I am waiting to hear a horn system that is not colored. They also require crossovers. IMHO the best type of system is a one way driver crossed to a subwoofer below 125 Hz where digital bass management is easy to apply. The only one way driver that is truly one way is an ESL. With horns you are also stuck with a point source system. It does not matter how big they get.  Line sources project power better particularly in the bass and are more capable of generating the visceral sensations of a live concert.  

How in the world is it that audio seems to draw those who know everything and also know the singular best way? I listen to what others say and incorporate good things I find into what I build and do. My list of those I listen to though grows fairly small over time and the ones I take seriously were vetted through the results they delivered in either their advice to me or their personal work I CAN VERIFY by putting my hands on it.

  I see @mijostyn that you have many opinions and I disagree with many of them as my real world experience sitting in my shop right now says you like to throw stuff out there and sound authoritative, but you are not. You have passed today into the read for amusement but not for info category.

  You seem quite stuck on subs but remember my big horn set is roughly -5db at 27hz and drops off quick after that and is not a sub but part of a two way system for 27hz to 18.5khz sound.

 Do you honestly think I will take you seriously when the evidence, the physical evidence that is, is in my shop and you say it can't be done. It's a shame you have never had a chance to hear good horns in that 40 years of experience you tout.

@mijostyn --

"... sorry lad, it would appear your experience is lacking. I have heard and built Horn subwoofers. Mahlmans’s sense of vibration is not good. I hope he is not diabetic. The other answer would be that his horns do not go very low which is in keeping with his other posts. Yes, horns are very efficient but, bass is bass and it is very powerful and hard to contain. Any subwoofer, horn or otherwise putting out 20 Hz at 85 dB is going to shake and it is going to shake the entire house. Making one that does not vibrate with just the distortion produced by the driver is virtually impossible. There are examples that come close, Magico’s Q subs come to mind. I might be able to do better. We shall see. I have been designing and building subwoofers for almost 40 years."

Forest for the trees, as they say. Not to impugn your decades of experience, I hope they’ve done you some good, but it seems to me you’re chasing an aspect in subwoofer design that’s really the lesser evil compared to, in my mind, more primary goals. You’re a line source guy on the main speaker front, one terminated at both the floor and ceiling no less, so why haven’t you gone to length ensuring two bass columns, loosening a wee bit on the vibration control, placed in each corner behind the mains to meet the challenges faced here with both headroom and acoustic coupling? No, because you’re hellbent on killing vibrations as that which has precedence, thus limiting yourself to a smaller sub design. It’s all a matter of degree and measuring its importance relative to other aspects, and to you vibration/resonance control comes first with all that entails - fair enough. I’d have gone differently, as you imagine, letting physics more readily have their say - vibrations to some degree be damned.

@mahlman’s horn subs (yes, in my understanding of the correct use of the word ’sub’ they qualify, being they’re able to reach honest 30Hz without any issues) as a classic single-fold front loaded horn, very high efficiency at that, will most likely deliver some of the most effortless, smooth and nuanced bass out there. I’m sure there’re some cabinet vibrations at elevated levels, but do they really matter in the bigger scheme of things, not least outweighed by the qualities of a horn sub design that has the woofer cone moving close to zilch at anything but earsplitting levels sans mechanical driver noise, where a direct radiating sub design like yours, almost 20dB’s less sensitive, will necessitate up to 100x the amount of power and prodigious excursion for the same SPL?

Shelling out $40k for a single(!) sealed, 15" loaded Magico sub is just dumb, sorry. That’s $80k for a pair of them, and it’s not like they cured polio or other.

"As for horns being the best type of driver, they have their advantages. I am waiting to hear a horn system that is not colored. They also require crossovers. IMHO the best type of system is a one way driver crossed to a subwoofer below 125 Hz where digital bass management is easy to apply. The only one way driver that is truly one way is an ESL. With horns you are also stuck with a point source system. It does not matter how big they get. Line sources project power better particularly in the bass and are more capable of generating the visceral sensations of a live concert."

I have no issues with ESL’s, really, other than they need to be big to really be worthwhile (and usually lack macro dynamics), certainly compared to big horn setups. And yes, an advantage of theirs is not needing a cross-over in most of the audio band, except crossing over to a pair of subs and the challenges this presents. Point source(s) as a design characteristics is not necessarily a flawed approach. A single point per channel is desirable and to my ears is most favorably realized through the Tom Danley invented Synergy horns, but they also need to be fairly big to do their best and maintain directivity control down low to the subs. The dispersion characteristics of my horn hybrid main speakers is quite uniform through their audio band, not least at their single cross-over point, and this is achieved via the big midrange/tweeter horn and how it couples to the twin vertically mounted 15" woofers. In that regard they’re sonically not wholly unlike big panel speakers.

not mean a horn can't sound really good. I believe an all horn system done right is unbeatable ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yeah at what price tag??

 

https://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/en/customer-galleries.html

My subwoofers were designed for music not Star Wars

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Ridiculous

Subs for blues, jazz, classical??

 

Lets get real here folks, None of these 3 genres require a sub. Subs are ONLY meant for movies and who knows what other uses. Grunge, metal rock, OK,.

Feeling like you are at a live concert requires low bass. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 99% of all music ever recorded is midrange. Not sure why are hooked on deep bass. Deep bass = 40 hz. The 20hz-30hz is a hoax, a myth, and a fantasy.

Oris 150 horns with AER BD3 drivers)

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just curious what is a **Oris 150 horn??** For bass? hz band width? You have the AER 3, very nice speaker,,,although have not heard it next to my DavidLouis VX8. can’t say if I would like it better, same or less so. and I don’t have $8k anyway... so what I did to make up for lack of a bass driver,, if add a 2nd FR, now i have really good bass 60hz-100hz, then over lap all the way through 12khz or whereever the 2 FR roll off at.. I have no idea. VX8 hits 40hz, VX6 60hz

Klipsch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My tech has heard Klipsch, He has issues with the Klipsche house sound. No thanks

They may be big structures,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Whenever I see a mnolithic horn cabinet,, I just have to chuckle Not only wife unfriendly, but just plain ugly, NEVER Even if it was the worlds best sounding speaker.

Eminence Kappa 12A. The really nice thing is it is one of the cheaper woofers also but at 12" I doubt you can use it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Here is how I addressed the bass response issue.

Instead of making a Single FR W8 + a massive 10 or 12 inch woofer + tweeter. I went this route

Dual FR, W8+W6, + tweeter. My Defy might take a woofer’s ohms, but why? For classical muisc, there is not much below 60hz, and blues, jazz, not much below 40 hz. Dual FR is nota heavy load on a SET amp, so I get double bass in the 50hz-100hz, band width, which makes up for the bass a 10 or 12 inch woofer would supply in that region. = a woofer has no use for my system. I’ve completely dumped the traditional woofer thingy. Now if you are into HT and heavy metal, yeah you need a woofer.