Just do it over and over for 30 times and you will fall out of your chair at the improvement. |
Sounds like the same results I get when I spin my chair around 180 degrees. |
Dmailer, I found this always to be the case, regardless of fuses or components. The proof is in what you hear, of course, but with the IsoClean fuses it is always with the prescribed and shown fuse direction.
It is just amazing to me that some will not even try it. |
I realize there are a lot of skeptics out there but I just tried a couple of furutech fuses in my amps and changing direction on the fuses is like listening to two totally different systems. One direction has a clearer more focused sound but seems to lack musicality being less involving and has a flatter soundstage. The other direction is less focused but has more depth and body to images and sounds more organic and musical to me. Has anyone else found similar results in their systems with the furutech fuses? Depending on ones system and preferences I could see one preferring either direction to the other. |
For those bringing down the curve, most likely operator error.
Geoffkait Brilliantly funny! |
My problem if you will is that I see two questions on all these products. 1) does it work? 2) does the vendor explanation make any sense?
for 1) I most often need to listen myself. FOr #2 I find if the explanation is BS I automatically form a negative opinion of the entire shebang. Not fair or even smart but personally I tend to lump everything from a source as BS once they hit me once with it.
Not saying I'm an expert on lots of this stuff but on some thing I dont really need to be. Example? Well to read many releases there is more cutting edge quantum physics going on in the audio world than in the physics world. Really gotta doubt that. ANother is the argument that vaccinations are bad for kids. I'm no immunologist but when the argument is so laded with errors and "read on the internet" stuff as opposed to years of boring science you gotta call BS. |
Tgb, with 100s of customers reporting, results with pebbles vary, with best results circa 50-200%.
For those bringing down the curve, most likely operator error. |
Bdgregory, I too find I am skeptical without some explanation for why a tweak might work, but I am also convinced by a demonstration. I have heard nothing that would explain why fuse direction would matter, nor why there might be differences between fuses except for the materials in fuses, etc. My experiences with tweaks run the gamut from worthless, such as copper tubing over the pc entering the IEC, to minimum value, such as the Brilliant Pebbles, to a great improvement, such as isolating the pcs from the floor and walls, and variable tweaks, such as quartz disks made by Acoustic Revive and others. In some placements, they do nothing, in other they do wonders, and yet in others they are terrible. |
Should be able to measure SOMETHING about the fuse's conductive differences, right? Those of you with means, and one of these exotic fuses in mention, O-scope the fuse's A.C.(60Hz) input and output (with your component powered up), then flip the fuse and measure again!
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I find it's harder to be skeptical if there is a rational hypothesis provided that's at least loosely grounded in the physics, acoustics, or material sciences.
How a fuse that's conducting AC, especially one that's not in the signal path, can have a real affect the sonics escapes me. |
Sid, my feeling is that a blind test would be unlikely to accomplish anything.
Most blind tests that have been reported in the past, involving things that would seem more likely to make a perceivable difference than fuse orientation (such as cables and even amplifiers), have resulted in a finding that no differences were perceivable.
Assuming that would be the outcome, the believers would allege that the skeptics did not hear a difference because of negative placebo effect (i.e., they did not expect to hear a difference so they did not). They would also claim, perhaps with some legitimacy, that they themselves did not hear a difference due to lack of familiarity with the sound of the system, or due to listener fatigue that might develop during the course of the tests, or due to other aspects of the test conditions.
Also, I would not characterize conducting such a test as "easy." Eliminating the possibility of differences being caused by extraneous variables, such as the ones I mentioned in my earlier post, would require very careful control of a lot of things. And at least several test subjects would have to be involved, to eliminate the possibility that the test result might be the result of guesswork (while not requiring any individual listener to go through an unreasonable number of trials, that might lead to listener fatigue). The inclusion of several test subjects again raising the issue of lack of adequate familiarity with the sound of the system.
Sebrof, yes we are talking about the ac mains fuse on the component. My suggestion would be that if you think you hear a difference, go back and forth a couple of times to confirm (allowing a few minutes for warmup between each reversal).
Best regards,
-- Al |
Geoffkait: "The subject matters to the "skeptics" only to the extent that it's another opportunity to suggest that blind tests would *prove* the damned thing doesn't work."
Actually, in my case I'm looking for proof that it does work. There's nothing that I have seen to suggest to me that changing the direction of a fuse will change the sound. Based on that I think it makes perfect sense for me to automatically assume that "the damned thing doesn't work" as you put it.
My integrated has a fuse holder at the back, so I can access the fuse without opening the case. Tonight I'll swap the fuse around and see if I hear a difference.
Are you guys talking about the AC mains fuse? |
The subject matters to the "skeptics" only to the extent that it's another opportunity to suggest that blind tests would *prove* the damned thing doesn't work. "Skeptics" automatically assume the damned thing doesn't work. How scientific is that? |
If neither the skeptics nor the believers are willing or able to confirm with a easy blind test, then, does the subject discussed really matter at all?
Just a thought. But it seems so many topics in this hobby fall into this kind of elusive category. |
"But people who say they hear a difference never confirm with a blind test. It's so easy to pull the fuse, toss it up in the air so you don't know which way it's facing, install and listen. Nobody seems to do this, and based on what we know about the way we perceive the world around us this amazes me."
You will probably also be amazed to know that none of the 'skeptics" ever confirms that changing the direction of the fuse does not make a difference using a blind test. It's so easy. |
>>Simply_q: "Because I'm a human being. And like all other human beings, I'm just as susceptible to perceiving differences even when none exist in any actual physical sense."
Yup, pretty well documented that the human mind is real good at tricking its owner. No mystery at all. In fact, hearing a difference or not hearing a difference is pretty much what is supposed to happen, depending on your POV going in, whether there is a change or not.
>>tbg: "It always amazes me that people will not just try changing the direction and seeing if it makes a difference."
But people who say they hear a difference never confirm with a blind test. It's so easy to pull the fuse, toss it up in the air so you don't know which way it's facing, install and listen. Nobody seems to do this, and based on what we know about the way we perceive the world around us this amazes me.
You guys who say that those who have never tried do not know. I agree. But those of you who have tried and have heard do not know either...just my opinion. |
Rrog Is there really anyone here that believes the direction of the fuse is going make their system more musically satisfying? It would seem so, yes. |
Simply_q, I taught the scientific method for 47 years and did much scientific research. You use such stupid notions that I am inclined to just drop the discussion. You seem to think that scientific observation avoids the human senses. My point is entirely that you will do no observation. I am fine with your mindlessly avoiding a possible improvement in your sound reproduction. That is fine with me, but your suggesting that anyone trying changing fuse direction is an idiot and unscientific or "physical" as you say. You, sir, are the unscientific one. But alas, I am bored with you and your mindless ilk.
Rhapsodi asked and I have given my best experiences. The end. |
I'm glad to see we are all getting along here. To begin with, the topic is a joke. Is there really anyone here that believes the direction of the fuse is going make their system more musically satisfying?
Read Almarg's post. It makes more sense than anything else writting here. |
Your semantic gymnastics are what's irrelevant. Like so many; you block out any truth that does not conform to YOUR definition, or understanding of an issue. Further: It's obvious you are VERY CHALLENGED in the comprehension department, or simply not reading the articles, the last three of which ALL mention polarity, as it relates to phase(but then- no one knows anything but you)! Help yourself to the last word(I'm certain you can't help yourself). It seems we've entered into a battle of wits, with an unarmed man(a total waste of time). |
Tbg Simply, let me see what does observation mean? Watching, listening, measuring, ie. using ones senses. What does scientific mean? Being as objective, seeking scientifically transmissible data, measuring with valid instrumentation, ie. being as open to what one is focusing on as possible. Great. So now where does the "scientific" part factor in here with regard to directional fuses and your claim of "scientific observation"? If all you're doing is listening, then by definition you're not being objective. Listening on its own is a decidedly subjective matter. I repeat my earlier statement. You are close-minded and apparently fearful that you will hear something, although the nocebo complex, hearing nothing because you believe you won't may affect you. Not at all. You're not getting it. Even if I tried it and did perceive a difference (please note I did not say "hear"), it would prove nothing one way or the other. Why? Because I'm a human being. And like all other human beings, I'm just as susceptible to perceiving differences even when none exist in any actual physical sense. And until that ambiguity can be adequately controlled for (and it can't be controlled for by way of vanity and ego), my trying it for myself is pointless. |
Rodman99999 Try a little education(though I doubt you're interested), and read the fourth section of this article(relating to harmonics): (www.arbiter) (en.wikipedia) (www.gcaudio) (www.sweetwater) OH, THAT'S RIGHT: None of those people know what they're talking about(ROTF/LMAO). The first article is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with absolute polarity in the context being discussed here, i.e. acoustic polarity. The part on harmonics is just as irrelevant. The Wikipedia article isn't referring to absolute polarity, nor is the Sweetwater article. Absolute polarity refers to the acoustic polarity of the acoustic waves produced at the original acoustical event. There is no "phase" to this. It is compression vs. rarefaction. Which is polarity, not phase. Again, phase is relative. There's nothing relative about the original acoustical event. It is the reference itself. |
Simply, let me see what does observation mean? Watching, listening, measuring, ie. using ones senses. What does scientific mean? Being as objective, seeking scientifically transmissible data, measuring with valid instrumentation, ie. being as open to what one is focusing on as possible.
Johnsen coined the word. I can see where it is more valid than phase that is most commonly used by those interested in acoustics. Clark has been in my room and he is a madman about this.
I repeat my earlier statement. You are close-minded and apparently fearful that you will hear something, although the nocebo complex, hearing nothing because you believe you won't may affect you. |
Tbg Simply_q, simply put, you don't know what you are talking about. Then instead of saying "you don't know what you're talking about" set me straight. Offer up something to expand one's knowledge on the underlying phenomenon. You say, "there is actually something physical behind it." This is just nonsense. How would you know there is nothing "physical" behind it? Why don't you quote the entirety of what I said? Which was: "When someone makes claims with the implication that there is actually something physical behind it, I don't need to have "heard it" or "tried it" to have a valid opinion on the matter..." The only opinion I expressed on the matter was that for one to accept prima facie that fuses are directional is to have one's mind so open as to allow their brains to slosh out on the floor. I feel that's a quite sound and rational opinion. How would you know there is nothing "physical" behind it? That's not what I said. Essentially what I said was that there's no obvious reason for that to be the case and so far no one has offered up even a plausible theory for it to be the case and to believe that it is the case is to go beyond being open-minded. |
Try a little education(though I doubt you're interested), and read the fourth section of this article(relating to harmonics): (http://www.arbiter.com/files/product-attachments/absolute_phase.pdf) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_phase) (http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/absolutephase.html) (http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--AbsolutePhase) OH, THAT'S RIGHT: None of those people know what they're talking about(ROTF/LMAO). Actually, I was quoting Ivor Tiefenbrun(founder of Linn Products Ltd), whose view of those that make statements concerning things they haven't heard, or tried, many respect and agree with. |
Tbg Simply_q, it is irrational to refuse scientific observation... Scientific observation? Exactly what scientific observation is that? You are right that it really is absolute polarity, but many call it phase. Then they should call it what it really is. |
Things can travel faster than light, EPR effects are instantaneous as noted above. Space can expand much faster than light as well. The Special Theory forbids the sending of SIGNALS faster than light. Quantum entanglement applies only to certain types of particle pairs where the values are indeterminant and the causing of one to take a value causes the other to take the other no matter the distance between them. The full implication of quantum theory are far from clear but I somehow doubt if the ability to tune up your stereo system over the phone, whether or not it is on, is one of them. This service is actually offered buy an Audiogon advertiser. |
Simply_q, simply put, you don't know what you are talking about. You say, "there is actually something physical behind it." This is just nonsense. How would you know there is nothing "physical" behind it? As I said there is no merit in heeding anything you say. |
Rodman99999 The point of trying? If you haven't heard it, or tried it, YOU HAVE NO OPINION. Nonsense. When someone makes claims with the implication that there is actually something physical behind it, I don't need to have "heard it" or "tried it" to have a valid opinion on the matter, nor would my having "heard it" or "tried it" bring anything new to the table. It's amazing how so many, that know so little, find so much to type about. So where are those who know so much more? Who might be able to actually expand our knowledge on the issue? They seem to be conspicuously absent. How about you? Obviously you would have to know so much more in order to rightfully claim that I know so little. What enlightenment and expansion of our knowledge do you have to offer on the subject? OH- and FYI, "absolute phase" is also a correct term: (www.omegamikro) No, it's not. Phase is a relative term, relating to one or more waveforms with respect to time. The issue at hand has nothing to do with time. It's about compression versus rarefaction, or positive versus negative. It is decidedly an issue of polarity, not of phase. The proper term is "absolute polarity," not "absolute phase." It was first coined by Clark Johnsen in his 1988 book, The Wood Effect. It has since been perverted into "absolute phase" by those who don't know what they're talking about. |
Simply_q, it is irrational to refuse scientific observation and to claim something is scientifically impossible. You are right that it really is absolute polarity, but many call it phase.
If you reject out of hand, there is no basis for anyone heeding you. |
Quantum Entanglement, faster than the speed of light.
Niels Bohr could have never thought of audio application of his theory. And Albert Einstein could never imagine something could indeed travel faster than the speed of light.
I always want to keep an open mind but I think I better close it for this one. Quantum mechanics for audio application is way over my head. If this hobby has advanced to such a degree that we need to understand quantum mechanics in order to enjoy music, I am afraid it won't last very long. I hope this isn't a trend. |
the problem with resistors, and other components manufactured in batches, is Quantum Entanglement. AKA action at a distance.
Since these components were manufactured at the same time, installing one resistor backwards in one piece of equipment causes all other entangled resistors to be affected.
This effect is not affected by distance, and the entanglement occurs faster than the speed of light.
Another serious problem to deal with is if one of the entangled resistors is destroyed, this adversely affects other resistors in the same entangled group.
This is one of the reasons that very old stereo components begin to sound bad, it's because many of the entangled component groups manufactured have been destroyed, thus adversely affecting the components still in use. |
The point of trying? If you haven't heard it, or tried it, YOU HAVE NO OPINION. It's amazing how so many, that know so little, find so much to type about. OH- and FYI, "absolute phase" is also a correct term: (http://www.omegamikro.com/Absolute_Phase.html) |
Tbg No, Simply_q, yours is the close-mindedness I am talking about. Just try it, if you hear nothing, I will apologize and add this to my list of things like music absolute phase that some just don't hear. What has my trying it have to do with anything? My trying it would bring absolutely nothing new to the table. By the way, it's absolute polarity, not absolute phase. |
Timrhu TGB, this presumes the resistors were line up properly prior to the paint application? Or that the cores were lined up properly before the end caps were attached. :) |
No, Simply_q, yours is the close-mindedness I am talking about. Just try it, if you hear nothing, I will apologize and add this to my list of things like music absolute phase that some just don't hear.
Timrhu, I expect that the painting is done while they are still connected one to another, but there is of course the possibility that all are wrong, just consistent. |
Sebrof, could be that resistors don't matter that much. It also could be that some companies check wire pull direction and resistor direction before assembly. Resistors would be easy to do consistently given their markings. TGB, this presumes the resistors were line up properly prior to the paint application? |
Tbg I don't know how some stick with the limited understanding of EE so close-mindly. It's fine to be open-minded, but not so open-minded your brains end up sloshing out onto the floor. And that's the sort of open-mindedness fuse directionality demands. |
Sebrof, could be that resistors don't matter that much. It also could be that some companies check wire pull direction and resistor direction before assembly. Resistors would be easy to do consistently given their markings.
I don't know how some stick with the limited understanding of EE so close-mindly. I still remember in EE classes that engineering faculty want to "stick with the formulas regardless. |
I don't know how some of you guys sleep at night knowing full well that statistically 50% of your resistors were installed backwards at the factory. |
Stanwal, I had a guy send me the magnets to try. I did and heard no benefit. I assume you tried changing directions before you went over to the blunt side? |
I searched long and hard for the source of the quote in the original post and finally found it. It is on page 963 of THE FENG SHUI OF FUSE HOLDERS by Hugh G. Lyar [sec. ed.]. Seriously, I have known audiophiles to obsess over fuses; a friend substitutes MAGNETS for his fuses, others use lengths of exotic wire. Of course these give no protection but that is life on the cutting edge. I defected to the blunt side years ago myself. |
Most manufacturers do not put an arrow on the fuse holder because the polarity of the sine wave coming out of the wall socket depends on (1) whether you are above or below the equator and (2) the position of the planets at the time that you change the fuse. For example, when Saturn is in quadrature with Mars, the fuse should point toward the component but the reverse is true when in Uranus. These facts must be considered or you would only be guessing at the polarity of the sine wave coming out of the wall. Then there is chaos theory which can only be dealt with via control theory and of course the principle points of interest there are at 86 and 99 Hz, with the first being most important and often referred to as the MAXWELL equation SMART point. Audiophilology is extremely complex, much more than anything that NASA ever deals with. Hope this helps. |
Rhapsodi, I don't think their is any convention. Most the holder is just two sets of clips.
Take the fuse out and use a meter with one lead on one of the clips and the other on one of the ac IEC blades. You want to identify the clip with the least resistance to the blade. The arrow of the directional fuse should go from that clip to the other.
Sebrof, I certainly don't try everything that people come with, but this was so easy. Incidentally, many were strongly suggesting using copper tubing over the chassis IEC plug. There was even a video showing its effectiveness. I tried it and found it worthless. I guess it would depend on how well ones power cords are designed and made. |
Absolutely, if you're going to do something, best to do it right.
My electrician told me that food from the fridge will taste better if that cryoed, polarized romex is used to power the fridge! Soon I'll be able to enjoy harmonically rich food while listening to my more tasty hi-fi, or was it tasty food with harmonically rich hi-fi, I forget what he said exactly.
'anyone recommend a good sheet-rock repair person? |
Ray,
You should totally gut your house and redo the wiring.You might as well use some of that expensive cryoed romex(at least 10 gauge) while you are at it.Plus you could put those high-dollar outlets in the entire house and all your electrical thingies(fridge,microwave,tv,lamps,hairdryers,etc.) could reap the benefits. |
I just spent $1,000 to have an electrician reverse the house power line from the pole. wow, what an improvement! well worth it.
The electrician said that very few electricians install AC wiring with any regard to proper directionality of the wire.
I suspect the wiring from my breaker panel to various outlets could be incorrect as well. |
"It always amazes me that people will not just try changing the direction and seeing if it makes a difference."
It always amazes me that people are amazed that other people won't try every little trick they read on the internet. |
Tbg, thanks for your response. What are the other two
things that you do with all your fuses? Now I am asking,
please share with me. Is there any identical sides for
front and rear of a fuse holder as universal? Thank you.
Regards,
Rhapsodi. |
Rhapsodi, about six years ago Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio, telephoned me to reverse the direction of the fuse in his speed controller for turn tables. I did as he said and he was right. Why? I had no idea. Much later when better fuse came out from IsoClean and Hi-Fi Tunning, the IsoClean fuses had clear markings with an arrow.
I knew the direction of my twist on fuse connectors, name with the arrow pointing into the component. I have repeatedly compared IsoClean fuses with the proper direction for the arrow and reversed. The proper direction always sounded better. I did the same thing with Hi-Fi Tuning fuses and they always sounded better one way than the other, although there was no consistent way to predict this. Since then Hi-Fi Tuning has conceded this and now marks their fuses.
Listening is always the best check and on many units one direction is quite superior. If you go into the unit and find the two ac leads to the transformer, you want the arrow pointing to the side where the resistance is lowest to the blade.
It always amazes me that people will not just try changing the direction and seeing if it makes a difference. But you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.
There are two other things that I do with all my fuses, but you didn't ask about that. |
