I can think of no reason for one end of a fuse to be different than the other and have never heard any suggestion that they are directional. The quote sounds like gibberish to me. How does the current know anything about the orientation of the fuse? There would have to be an "arrow" on the fuse itself as well as the fuse holder if they were directional, I have never seen one on either. |
You money will follow that "arrow" right down the drain!! |
I think the quote was someone's joke. Fuses complete the continuity of a single wire. There no reason at all fro them to be directional. I've never seen a directional fuse or fuse holder. |
Your question has crossed into the Zenist territory which is way over my head. But I am eager to learn. Please post update when you come to any conclusion. |
I have read, (here in this forum and elsewhere) that the "Audiophile" fuses have a direction. I did finally try one in my preamp. I was the most skeptical of anyone about these fuses. While I did hear a marked improvement, the direction of the fuse made no difference at all. |
Stanwal, then why there is an arrow? and why it is said
that Audiophile fuses have directional? Why few said
their experiences as they could hear the difference in
sound when they change the direction of the fuse in the
holder?. |
Your components power supply fuse that is between the wall socket and your component's power supply conducts current in both direction during 1 cycle, because we are using alternating current
The current will flow from the wall through the fuse to the component's transformer ... reverse and then flow from the Transformer back through the fuse to the wall socket to complete 1 cycle
It appears that the current has to flow in and out and through the fuse in both direction to complete 1 cycle ... either 60hz/USA or 50hz/International
With a normal fast acting fuse I doubt that directionality matters or has an effect ... however
On a slow blow or time delay fuse with the springy thing in one end ... it may matter as the springy thing is meant to cushion the incoming current rush
|
I agree with MoFi in that the fuse does make a difference. Maybe not in all systems but I used the Furutech in my LS26 and noticed improvment. It makes sense, if the A/C cable is upgraded why would all that expense stop at a fuse? This is MHO of course and there are so many that would disagree. But have they tried it? |
I have never heard it said that Audiophile fuses have direction and I haven't seen arrows on them either. How are you suppose to know which way the arrow is to be pointed if there was one. Please explain why YOU think they are directional; "They" can say anything. They question wasn't whether fuses can make a difference but whether the orientation made a difference. Even in the unlikely event that it did I don't see how it could be predicted in advance if the construction of the fuse is symmetrical. |
A bit of info here, at least about Furutech and Hi-Fi Tuning fuses:(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/net/net.html) (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1261938237) |
I'm pretty sure I'm on the verge of looking for a new hobby. |
Another site of interest(especially beginning at the last paragraph of page 2): (http://www.xtremecables.com/PDFsMisc/Furutech_Fuses_User_Testimonials.pdf) |
Rhapsodi -- As you can gather from the preceding responses, whether or not the orientation of audiophile-oriented replacement fuses is sonically significant is a matter of, um, some controversy. Whatever the case may be, though, the statement you quoted is complete nonsense. You will not damage your equipment if the fuse is installed in the "wrong" direction.
Why not try it both ways yourself, and report your findings as to any sonic differences you may perceive?
Of course, for your assessment to be meaningful you'll have to be careful to allow enough time for the equipment to warm up properly following being shut down for the fuse reversal, while not allowing so much time that extraneous variables may come into play. Such as changes in ac line voltage or ac line noise conditions; changes in room temperature; changes in ambient emi/rfi conditions (perhaps caused by digital equipment elsewhere in the house being turned on or off); differences in volume control settings; on-going burn-in or aging of system components; the vagaries of aural recollection; the fact that additional detail may be perceived upon a subsequent listening to given source material that was not perceived during a previous listening, even when nothing has changed, etc., etc.
Best regards,
-- Al |
I'm pretty sure I'm on the verge of looking for a new hobby.
Rrog I feel exactly the same way when I read some of these posts. No offense to Davehrab, but things like the quote below can drive me to the edge [quote}On a slow blow or time delay fuse with the springy thing in one end ... it may matter as the springy thing is meant to cushion the incoming current rush{quote] |
Rhapsodi, about six years ago Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio, telephoned me to reverse the direction of the fuse in his speed controller for turn tables. I did as he said and he was right. Why? I had no idea. Much later when better fuse came out from IsoClean and Hi-Fi Tunning, the IsoClean fuses had clear markings with an arrow.
I knew the direction of my twist on fuse connectors, name with the arrow pointing into the component. I have repeatedly compared IsoClean fuses with the proper direction for the arrow and reversed. The proper direction always sounded better. I did the same thing with Hi-Fi Tuning fuses and they always sounded better one way than the other, although there was no consistent way to predict this. Since then Hi-Fi Tuning has conceded this and now marks their fuses.
Listening is always the best check and on many units one direction is quite superior. If you go into the unit and find the two ac leads to the transformer, you want the arrow pointing to the side where the resistance is lowest to the blade.
It always amazes me that people will not just try changing the direction and seeing if it makes a difference. But you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.
There are two other things that I do with all my fuses, but you didn't ask about that. |
Tbg, thanks for your response. What are the other two
things that you do with all your fuses? Now I am asking,
please share with me. Is there any identical sides for
front and rear of a fuse holder as universal? Thank you.
Regards,
Rhapsodi. |
"It always amazes me that people will not just try changing the direction and seeing if it makes a difference."
It always amazes me that people are amazed that other people won't try every little trick they read on the internet. |
I just spent $1,000 to have an electrician reverse the house power line from the pole. wow, what an improvement! well worth it.
The electrician said that very few electricians install AC wiring with any regard to proper directionality of the wire.
I suspect the wiring from my breaker panel to various outlets could be incorrect as well. |
Ray,
You should totally gut your house and redo the wiring.You might as well use some of that expensive cryoed romex(at least 10 gauge) while you are at it.Plus you could put those high-dollar outlets in the entire house and all your electrical thingies(fridge,microwave,tv,lamps,hairdryers,etc.) could reap the benefits. |
Absolutely, if you're going to do something, best to do it right.
My electrician told me that food from the fridge will taste better if that cryoed, polarized romex is used to power the fridge! Soon I'll be able to enjoy harmonically rich food while listening to my more tasty hi-fi, or was it tasty food with harmonically rich hi-fi, I forget what he said exactly.
'anyone recommend a good sheet-rock repair person? |
Rhapsodi, I don't think their is any convention. Most the holder is just two sets of clips.
Take the fuse out and use a meter with one lead on one of the clips and the other on one of the ac IEC blades. You want to identify the clip with the least resistance to the blade. The arrow of the directional fuse should go from that clip to the other.
Sebrof, I certainly don't try everything that people come with, but this was so easy. Incidentally, many were strongly suggesting using copper tubing over the chassis IEC plug. There was even a video showing its effectiveness. I tried it and found it worthless. I guess it would depend on how well ones power cords are designed and made. |
Most manufacturers do not put an arrow on the fuse holder because the polarity of the sine wave coming out of the wall socket depends on (1) whether you are above or below the equator and (2) the position of the planets at the time that you change the fuse. For example, when Saturn is in quadrature with Mars, the fuse should point toward the component but the reverse is true when in Uranus. These facts must be considered or you would only be guessing at the polarity of the sine wave coming out of the wall. Then there is chaos theory which can only be dealt with via control theory and of course the principle points of interest there are at 86 and 99 Hz, with the first being most important and often referred to as the MAXWELL equation SMART point. Audiophilology is extremely complex, much more than anything that NASA ever deals with. Hope this helps. |
I searched long and hard for the source of the quote in the original post and finally found it. It is on page 963 of THE FENG SHUI OF FUSE HOLDERS by Hugh G. Lyar [sec. ed.]. Seriously, I have known audiophiles to obsess over fuses; a friend substitutes MAGNETS for his fuses, others use lengths of exotic wire. Of course these give no protection but that is life on the cutting edge. I defected to the blunt side years ago myself. |
Stanwal, I had a guy send me the magnets to try. I did and heard no benefit. I assume you tried changing directions before you went over to the blunt side? |
I don't know how some of you guys sleep at night knowing full well that statistically 50% of your resistors were installed backwards at the factory. |
Sebrof, could be that resistors don't matter that much. It also could be that some companies check wire pull direction and resistor direction before assembly. Resistors would be easy to do consistently given their markings.
I don't know how some stick with the limited understanding of EE so close-mindly. I still remember in EE classes that engineering faculty want to "stick with the formulas regardless. |
Tbg I don't know how some stick with the limited understanding of EE so close-mindly. It's fine to be open-minded, but not so open-minded your brains end up sloshing out onto the floor. And that's the sort of open-mindedness fuse directionality demands. |
Sebrof, could be that resistors don't matter that much. It also could be that some companies check wire pull direction and resistor direction before assembly. Resistors would be easy to do consistently given their markings. TGB, this presumes the resistors were line up properly prior to the paint application? |
No, Simply_q, yours is the close-mindedness I am talking about. Just try it, if you hear nothing, I will apologize and add this to my list of things like music absolute phase that some just don't hear.
Timrhu, I expect that the painting is done while they are still connected one to another, but there is of course the possibility that all are wrong, just consistent. |
Timrhu TGB, this presumes the resistors were line up properly prior to the paint application? Or that the cores were lined up properly before the end caps were attached. :) |
Tbg No, Simply_q, yours is the close-mindedness I am talking about. Just try it, if you hear nothing, I will apologize and add this to my list of things like music absolute phase that some just don't hear. What has my trying it have to do with anything? My trying it would bring absolutely nothing new to the table. By the way, it's absolute polarity, not absolute phase. |
The point of trying? If you haven't heard it, or tried it, YOU HAVE NO OPINION. It's amazing how so many, that know so little, find so much to type about. OH- and FYI, "absolute phase" is also a correct term: (http://www.omegamikro.com/Absolute_Phase.html) |
the problem with resistors, and other components manufactured in batches, is Quantum Entanglement. AKA action at a distance.
Since these components were manufactured at the same time, installing one resistor backwards in one piece of equipment causes all other entangled resistors to be affected.
This effect is not affected by distance, and the entanglement occurs faster than the speed of light.
Another serious problem to deal with is if one of the entangled resistors is destroyed, this adversely affects other resistors in the same entangled group.
This is one of the reasons that very old stereo components begin to sound bad, it's because many of the entangled component groups manufactured have been destroyed, thus adversely affecting the components still in use. |
Quantum Entanglement, faster than the speed of light.
Niels Bohr could have never thought of audio application of his theory. And Albert Einstein could never imagine something could indeed travel faster than the speed of light.
I always want to keep an open mind but I think I better close it for this one. Quantum mechanics for audio application is way over my head. If this hobby has advanced to such a degree that we need to understand quantum mechanics in order to enjoy music, I am afraid it won't last very long. I hope this isn't a trend. |
Simply_q, it is irrational to refuse scientific observation and to claim something is scientifically impossible. You are right that it really is absolute polarity, but many call it phase.
If you reject out of hand, there is no basis for anyone heeding you. |
Rodman99999 The point of trying? If you haven't heard it, or tried it, YOU HAVE NO OPINION. Nonsense. When someone makes claims with the implication that there is actually something physical behind it, I don't need to have "heard it" or "tried it" to have a valid opinion on the matter, nor would my having "heard it" or "tried it" bring anything new to the table. It's amazing how so many, that know so little, find so much to type about. So where are those who know so much more? Who might be able to actually expand our knowledge on the issue? They seem to be conspicuously absent. How about you? Obviously you would have to know so much more in order to rightfully claim that I know so little. What enlightenment and expansion of our knowledge do you have to offer on the subject? OH- and FYI, "absolute phase" is also a correct term: (www.omegamikro) No, it's not. Phase is a relative term, relating to one or more waveforms with respect to time. The issue at hand has nothing to do with time. It's about compression versus rarefaction, or positive versus negative. It is decidedly an issue of polarity, not of phase. The proper term is "absolute polarity," not "absolute phase." It was first coined by Clark Johnsen in his 1988 book, The Wood Effect. It has since been perverted into "absolute phase" by those who don't know what they're talking about. |
Simply_q, simply put, you don't know what you are talking about. You say, "there is actually something physical behind it." This is just nonsense. How would you know there is nothing "physical" behind it? As I said there is no merit in heeding anything you say. |
Things can travel faster than light, EPR effects are instantaneous as noted above. Space can expand much faster than light as well. The Special Theory forbids the sending of SIGNALS faster than light. Quantum entanglement applies only to certain types of particle pairs where the values are indeterminant and the causing of one to take a value causes the other to take the other no matter the distance between them. The full implication of quantum theory are far from clear but I somehow doubt if the ability to tune up your stereo system over the phone, whether or not it is on, is one of them. This service is actually offered buy an Audiogon advertiser. |
Tbg Simply_q, it is irrational to refuse scientific observation... Scientific observation? Exactly what scientific observation is that? You are right that it really is absolute polarity, but many call it phase. Then they should call it what it really is. |
Try a little education(though I doubt you're interested), and read the fourth section of this article(relating to harmonics): (http://www.arbiter.com/files/product-attachments/absolute_phase.pdf) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_phase) (http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/absolutephase.html) (http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--AbsolutePhase) OH, THAT'S RIGHT: None of those people know what they're talking about(ROTF/LMAO). Actually, I was quoting Ivor Tiefenbrun(founder of Linn Products Ltd), whose view of those that make statements concerning things they haven't heard, or tried, many respect and agree with. |
Tbg Simply_q, simply put, you don't know what you are talking about. Then instead of saying "you don't know what you're talking about" set me straight. Offer up something to expand one's knowledge on the underlying phenomenon. You say, "there is actually something physical behind it." This is just nonsense. How would you know there is nothing "physical" behind it? Why don't you quote the entirety of what I said? Which was: "When someone makes claims with the implication that there is actually something physical behind it, I don't need to have "heard it" or "tried it" to have a valid opinion on the matter..." The only opinion I expressed on the matter was that for one to accept prima facie that fuses are directional is to have one's mind so open as to allow their brains to slosh out on the floor. I feel that's a quite sound and rational opinion. How would you know there is nothing "physical" behind it? That's not what I said. Essentially what I said was that there's no obvious reason for that to be the case and so far no one has offered up even a plausible theory for it to be the case and to believe that it is the case is to go beyond being open-minded. |
Simply, let me see what does observation mean? Watching, listening, measuring, ie. using ones senses. What does scientific mean? Being as objective, seeking scientifically transmissible data, measuring with valid instrumentation, ie. being as open to what one is focusing on as possible.
Johnsen coined the word. I can see where it is more valid than phase that is most commonly used by those interested in acoustics. Clark has been in my room and he is a madman about this.
I repeat my earlier statement. You are close-minded and apparently fearful that you will hear something, although the nocebo complex, hearing nothing because you believe you won't may affect you. |
Rodman99999 Try a little education(though I doubt you're interested), and read the fourth section of this article(relating to harmonics): (www.arbiter) (en.wikipedia) (www.gcaudio) (www.sweetwater) OH, THAT'S RIGHT: None of those people know what they're talking about(ROTF/LMAO). The first article is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with absolute polarity in the context being discussed here, i.e. acoustic polarity. The part on harmonics is just as irrelevant. The Wikipedia article isn't referring to absolute polarity, nor is the Sweetwater article. Absolute polarity refers to the acoustic polarity of the acoustic waves produced at the original acoustical event. There is no "phase" to this. It is compression vs. rarefaction. Which is polarity, not phase. Again, phase is relative. There's nothing relative about the original acoustical event. It is the reference itself. |
Tbg Simply, let me see what does observation mean? Watching, listening, measuring, ie. using ones senses. What does scientific mean? Being as objective, seeking scientifically transmissible data, measuring with valid instrumentation, ie. being as open to what one is focusing on as possible. Great. So now where does the "scientific" part factor in here with regard to directional fuses and your claim of "scientific observation"? If all you're doing is listening, then by definition you're not being objective. Listening on its own is a decidedly subjective matter. I repeat my earlier statement. You are close-minded and apparently fearful that you will hear something, although the nocebo complex, hearing nothing because you believe you won't may affect you. Not at all. You're not getting it. Even if I tried it and did perceive a difference (please note I did not say "hear"), it would prove nothing one way or the other. Why? Because I'm a human being. And like all other human beings, I'm just as susceptible to perceiving differences even when none exist in any actual physical sense. And until that ambiguity can be adequately controlled for (and it can't be controlled for by way of vanity and ego), my trying it for myself is pointless. |
Your semantic gymnastics are what's irrelevant. Like so many; you block out any truth that does not conform to YOUR definition, or understanding of an issue. Further: It's obvious you are VERY CHALLENGED in the comprehension department, or simply not reading the articles, the last three of which ALL mention polarity, as it relates to phase(but then- no one knows anything but you)! Help yourself to the last word(I'm certain you can't help yourself). It seems we've entered into a battle of wits, with an unarmed man(a total waste of time). |
I'm glad to see we are all getting along here. To begin with, the topic is a joke. Is there really anyone here that believes the direction of the fuse is going make their system more musically satisfying?
Read Almarg's post. It makes more sense than anything else writting here. |
Simply_q, I taught the scientific method for 47 years and did much scientific research. You use such stupid notions that I am inclined to just drop the discussion. You seem to think that scientific observation avoids the human senses. My point is entirely that you will do no observation. I am fine with your mindlessly avoiding a possible improvement in your sound reproduction. That is fine with me, but your suggesting that anyone trying changing fuse direction is an idiot and unscientific or "physical" as you say. You, sir, are the unscientific one. But alas, I am bored with you and your mindless ilk.
Rhapsodi asked and I have given my best experiences. The end. |
Rrog Is there really anyone here that believes the direction of the fuse is going make their system more musically satisfying? It would seem so, yes. |
>>Simply_q: "Because I'm a human being. And like all other human beings, I'm just as susceptible to perceiving differences even when none exist in any actual physical sense."
Yup, pretty well documented that the human mind is real good at tricking its owner. No mystery at all. In fact, hearing a difference or not hearing a difference is pretty much what is supposed to happen, depending on your POV going in, whether there is a change or not.
>>tbg: "It always amazes me that people will not just try changing the direction and seeing if it makes a difference."
But people who say they hear a difference never confirm with a blind test. It's so easy to pull the fuse, toss it up in the air so you don't know which way it's facing, install and listen. Nobody seems to do this, and based on what we know about the way we perceive the world around us this amazes me.
You guys who say that those who have never tried do not know. I agree. But those of you who have tried and have heard do not know either...just my opinion. |
"But people who say they hear a difference never confirm with a blind test. It's so easy to pull the fuse, toss it up in the air so you don't know which way it's facing, install and listen. Nobody seems to do this, and based on what we know about the way we perceive the world around us this amazes me."
You will probably also be amazed to know that none of the 'skeptics" ever confirms that changing the direction of the fuse does not make a difference using a blind test. It's so easy. |
