Funny... If I am not mistaken, not one person, has
really explained "What they don't like about horn speakers"?
Just said, "hate, loathe,", oh and this is rich...
a violin sounding like a horn? And a comment regarding a distortion figure.
As far as noise? I squashed that notion, as I said,
even with your ear next to the Horn, it is QUIET!
Knowledge, is Power, stay in school.
The more you read, the more informed you will be.
Then perhaps, we may All benefit from actual "responses".
The Horn speaker, is as a "microphone", what ever is
recorded, will be played back, JUST as it was heard.
What specifically, is the problem?
I dislike Volkswagen "Things", because they look ugly.
They are slugs, get the idea?
"Hate, loathe" etc... why? be specific...
Because they sound Better than ANYTHING else!
Because they make your non-horn speakers sound like junk.
Because now your CD's sound "Alive!"
Okay?
I don't really care, I am just making a point.
Horns Sound "REAL", if You don't like "REAL"
Music, buy Bose.
I Love Music! |
I do not have extensive experience with horns, but I do have some. I had heard several sets of horns and found them to be ok, but not great. The last three years I have gone to the Audiokarma show in Detroit and listened to every speaker I could. I paid particular attention to the horns. Granted, many of the rooms were not optimal. However, the room for Classic Audio Reproductions had people that should have known how to set them up. Each year they had speaker systems of 20k and higher with the set this year at 36k. The mids and treble were very nice but the bass was just plain bad. There was a resonance in the upper bass that made them not listenable for me. I am not sure what was causing it, but it sure sounded like a lively cabinet. I could not believe that a speaker of that price was producing it. Every year I have left their room thinking that if this is the best that horns have to offer, I could not do it. It certainly was not because of cheap electronics on any occasion.
Despite all of that, I purchased a new pair of the Emerald Physics CS2's. The decision was based partly on buzz the product had been receiving and partly because I really like open baffle bass. I burned them in for about 500 hours. At that time I was using a Classe CP60 pre, an Upgrade Company modified Denon 3910. Amplification was a pair of Aragon Palladium 2 monos on the bass section and a Pass Aleph 30 on the tweeter. Ridge Street Audio cables were used through out. I could never warm up to the sound of them. There was a resonance in the mids that would occur that sounded like talking thru a megaphone. It did not happen all of the time, but it was enough to be musically distracting and I found it to be unacceptable. Another thing I did not like about them was that the soundstage was 2 dimensional. That could have been due to my set up, but they were set up per manufaturer instructions even including phone conversations with Clayton Shaw. The 2 dimensional aspect also contributed to the fact that they sounded like a very good PA system, but not what I am looking for when I listen at home. I did listen to the CS3's at AK fest 2009 and found them to be an improvement, but not enough for me to buy them. With my somewhat limited experience, it will take some major convincing to get me to go down that path again. |
There is this device called a,
"SUB-WOOFER"
It is an amazing addition, and improves the sound in more
ways than you would expect.
Properly implemented, not ONLY is the "3d effect" THERE!
But, taking the load off of the mains, the mains can
do what they where made to do.
The Bass, is NO LONGER an issue.
The sheer speed, and visceral effects of the Velodynes,
in addition to the smoothness in the highs and midrange,
IMHO, it just does not get any better.
I Love Music! |
I love horn speakers, and agree with just about everything said by those who like them on this thread. One thing is interesting to me though. A couple of posters mentioned that horns have to be perfectly set up and placed, and I am wondering why, since this should not true in theory, and has not been true IME. You can pretty much put horns anywhere and they will sound pretty good (for instance, Cornwalls). Yes, there is of course an optimum placement, but they are generally much less finicky with regards to placement than just about any other speaker type. And yes, horns are directional, but the shape of the horn not only helps direct the sound to where you want it to go, but also helps keep it away from where you don't want it to go. So some types of room problems are either eliminated or are not nearly as bad. Also, though there is an optimum "sweet spot," if you have larger horns such as Altec A7's or Klipschorns, this "sweet spot" can be a pretty large area (depending on the size of the specific room), certainly a bigger area than most other speaker types. And if you are outside this "sweet spot," the sound is still much better than many other types (I have heard some others where if you move your head even an inch there is a radical change in sound quality - why anyone would deliberately design such a speaker is beyond me). In fact, ease of placement is usually given as an argument in favor of horn speakers, so I was surprised to see some posters imply otherwise. |
There is this device called a,
"SUB-WOOFER"
It is an amazing addition, and improves the sound in more
ways than you would expect.
Properly implemented, not ONLY is the "3d effect" THERE!
do what they where made to do.
The Bass, is NO LONGER an issue.
The sheer speed, and visceral effects of the Velodynes,
in addition to the smoothness in the highs and midrange>
If you look at my system, you will see that I have a Velodyne DD12 so I fully understand what a sub can do. The speakers I have are run full range with the sub crossed in to blend. They produce 3D imaging with or without the sub. Your comment makes absolutley no sense and is about as condescending as it gets. You state that noone is giving examples of why they don't use horns, then when someone does you imply that they have no idea what they are doing. The CS2's are designed to be flat to 20 hz and are meant to be used without a sub. That is from the designer. I suppose that you know better than him how his speakers should be set up. As far as a speaker that costs 36k requiring a sub to sound right, that is ridiculous as it gets. It better be able to do everything right for that kind of money. And while I said that the mids and highs were very nice, I did not say that they were great or revlatory. That is what I would expect at that price.
It seems that no matter the design, there is at least one person who feels that everyone else can't hear if they don't use the design they favor. It could be stats, planars, single driver, time and phase coherent with 1st order crossover, etc., or in this case, horns. Different people hear things differently. There is no such thing as a perfect speaker. Each person chooses what it is they are willing to live with that is not perfect. I have chosen to not use horns, but continue to be open to being convinced they are right for me. So far, that hasn't happened. One thing for sure, telling me I can't hear is not going to convince me of the superiority of horns.
As Learsfool states, I found the sweetspot to be very wide with the CS2's. This was also my experience with the other directivity controlled speakers that I have owned, the Legacy Audio Whisper. The Whisper was the reason I was so interested in the open baffle bass of the CS2's. In addition, both speakers were easy to place as Learsfool also mentions due to their controlled directivity and open panel bass. I have heard "head in a vice" speakers before and would never by one of them either. As I mentioned above, all of these are strictly my opinions and experiences. It is up to each person to choose what pleases them.
|
Herman... Sounding like trumpets is a quite precise description of what I find undesirable about horns. I think everyone will understand what I am saying, although they might disagree. As is often said on Audiogon, we couldn't care less about specs...it's how it sounds. |
Csm,
If you were trying to address my issue re: "hybrid horns" (i.e. almost any extended range horn design), I think that you may have missed my narrow point. Specifically, I was suggesting that horn loaded drivers increase their output more rapidly than non-horn loaded drivers (subwoofers included). That is, take a GREAT subwoofer (I use Rythmik) and adjust it so that the tonal balance is just right at your typical listening level. Then crank the volume. IME, ALL speakers change character at some point, but horn/hybrids do so more quickly and more audibly.
My explanation - that compression in the non-loaded driver (the subwoofer in this example) - audibly exceeds that in the horn loaded driver. That is, by the way, just a guess - but a guess that explains what I hear. I only hypothesized this after a couple of years living with horn/hybrids and only further tested it with a brief audition, so I can't swear that it's the issue at hand. However, I don know this:
In the systems to which I was referring, you'd need to reset the level of the subs as you increased/decreased volume level in order to maintain consistent tonal balance.
No shot at the subs (and I have used Velodynes, too), just observing the mismatch in dynamic behavior between horn and non-horn loaded drivers - with the acknowledgement that the sample size is too small to produce statistical significance. |
Csmgolf has provided a personal account of an honest attempt to make horn speakers work for him. It could be argued that his experience is not indicative of the best that horns can offer but that is not the purpose of this thread. I want people to overcome ignorance of what horns can do and he has certainly made to desired effort.
He says that he is keeping an open mind. What else can you ask of him?
My reach here is toward those who have closed their minds. I don't expect everyone to like what I like but since getting involved in horns myself I have come to learn that there are few areas of sound reproduction that embody misinformation and misunderstanding to the degree that horn loudspeakers do. Even the most prominent horn designers are sharply divided as the best approach. The pre-eminent horn authority at this point in time is probably Tom Danley but I'm sure you will hear arguments about that statement as well.
Perhaps, if enough of us get interested, the forces that guide research will guide the horn. As a technology, simple as it seems,we appear to be dealing with an option that has remained an infant for 50 years.
For those who tak about sweet spots, do some reading about the JBL Everest. Maybe some investigation of B&O experiments with sound directivity and room correction will provide inspiration or spark some imagining. Geddes has a Circle on Audio Circle that is heavily trafficked. Romy has a following. Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill is utterly retro and cutting edge in the same stroke. His designs challenge the best of everything yet stick with horns and single tubes. Bruce Edgar may be the guy who got us all started. Klipsch holds a dedicated following. Jadis created one of the most sought after speakers of all time, all horn. Usher makes a horn speaker that looks very interesting. Bert Doppenberg has been stirring souls and stirring the pot for a couple of decades. Classic Audio Design makes the speaker that Atma-Sphere uses and adores. Field coil drivers are in use there and in the minds of many an entrepreneur. For those who don't know, a field coil uses an electromagnet the way your speakers use permanent magnets.
Have I forgotten anyone? Probably. I'm no expert and I imagine some of what I just wrote contains minor factual errors. I'm too lazy to bolster my recollections with back research for the purpose of this thread. I'd just like to get more people talking and more designers working on horns. I'm sure that tapped horns hold huge potential and I bet that designers can make horns more living room friendly if sufficiently motivated. I understand that the laws of physics are more than just suggestions but I also know that the audiophile community is infinitely resourceful. Our problems lie in the area of media misdirection. The audio press might better be called the audio suppress.
Horns have unexploited potential. Lets get busy harvesting their potential. Most other options seem to have reached their limits long ago. |
Dartford, I accept your assessment of what you heard. I am curious what horns you have heard. I realize that might be an extensive list and not worth the bother of recalling but given our diametrically opposed experiences it might help understand where you are coming from. Macrojack, I would add Jeffrey Jackson and Dave Slagle to your list of cutting edge horn designers. Jeffrey is distributing a line of wood horns and they are collaborating on field coil designs. Check out the Hi Fi Heroin blog at this link to get an idea of how consumed these guys are with it. http://www.jeffreywjackson.com/. |
Lots of personal bias, limited experience, a passing listen now your an expert. Why forum response can be a true waist of time if real info is desired. I can have any loudspeaker design I want I choose horns. And no they do not honk have audible distortions that are problematic for all loudspeakers distort. Yes they image and bass is world class. You get far less thermo compression out of horn designs. After you hear what thermo compression does to musical dynamics hard to enjoy a non horn speaker after. Conventional loudspeakers to me sound like they are working hard to produce signal. A horn system sounds at ease never forced. To me proper horn loudspeakers do most performance aspects better than conventional designs, except, cost, size, maybe WAF. Still to me many with lesser systems who could never afford or get proper horns or loudspeakers past she who must be obeyed of coarse could never except the fact that horns are just better for music. Since this fact hurts to much to except they must make themselves happy with far lesser designs. ;) |
Marty, my comments were not addressing your post, but thanks for the follow up. What you say makes sense and may help explain issues that some have with horns. Macro, thanks for keeping an open mind about my personal experience. I, like many others use these forums to learn about differing technologies and how they are best applied. Horns are no exception. They have many desirable virtues, such as those I mentioned in my previous post. But before I would ever consider restructuring my entire system around a set of horns, I would have to hear a set do the things I find important to musical enjoyment. |
Johnk, Looking at your system it raises an interesting question, what is a horn loudspeaker? In my mind you have a hybrid system that uses some principles of true horn design with more conventional non-horn characteristics, like the bass module and the super tweeter. Not that there's anything wrong with that. BTW, what's the tweeter. Is there a horn in that box?
To be a true horn IMHO the horn must be long enough to actually load the driver. Having a flared opening does not make it a horn. An example is what Avantgarde calls a Bass horn. It is really a woofer with a flared opening. The length of the flare is way too short to have much impact on the driver. Another hybrid would be a Lowther in folded horn cabinet where the vast majority of the frequencies are produced directly from the driver and just the bass comes from the folded horn.
Wonder how many who dismiss horns have never really heard a true horn?
. |
Its a good question.
Also lots of good answers that seem to help substantiate why horn loaded designs are a distinct minority.
Personally, I think I would like the sound of a good, pure horn design set up correctly, but I doubt it is something that I will ever have the incentive or motivation to pursue.
In general, I am not a fan of mixing distinctly different sounding driver designs into a speaker system.
My ideal driver would be a robust, high efficiency, full range, field coil based Walsh driver, but no such thing exists today TTBOMK, and if it ever does, it will probably be quite expensive and out of my realm. |
Take some time to examine this design.
http://www.techfx.us/web/insubnia/Exodus%20Anarchy%2025hz%20TH.pdf
It is said to provide horn bass down to 25 Hz. in room. I would suppose that means upward extension to about 125 Hz. These are small enough and cheap enough to build for many of us to consider using them in a distributed bass arrangement. I've been thinking about it and wondering about how it sounds. Anybody here able to answer that question? |
Horns have unexploited potential. Lets get busy harvesting their potential. Most other options seem to have reached their limits long ago Horns are great. They are the BEST solution for many applications. However, you cannot dismiss other options so summarily. You are generalizing too much. A good horn in the right setup can be the optimal solution, just as a conventional dynamic driver can be optimal in another situation. For example: What about the midrange. Most horn designs crossover around 800 to 1000 Hz. Many people believe this is not a good region to have a crossover, as it is right bang square center in the sweetspot of all music. All designs involve trade offs. Horns have some extremely useful characteristics for live audio and stadium audio. In fact they are probably the best #1 choice in most large venue live applications - as the narrow dispersion allows better control of the sound field so each listener gets an optimal experience. Line arrays are another powerful tool for live venues. However, these advantages do not always translate to making these designs the #1 choice in the home or in a studio. Horses for courses. |
Shadorne, Classic Audio Loudspeakers makes a horn that crosses over at 250Hz, owing to the kapton surrounds on the beryllium-domed drivers. The tweeter rolls in at 12KHz.
Only a few years ago, he used a TAD maple-machined horn, but it turned out to have an artifact (even with the TAD drivers) due to an error in the throat design. He had Bruce Edgar design a new horn, and no more artifact. The new horn is also a maple machined design.
This is what I mean by proper setup- a properly-designed horn with a a decent driver. Many of the horn systems I have heard lack these two elements, and so while being loud, are not particularly pleasant nor are they accurate. Once this proper setup is achieved, actually setting up the speaker in a room is quite easy, although I have to say that some of the larger rooms I've used in the last few years at shows have been problematic due to reverb in the room. But that is not really a speaker problem- that's just a room treatment issue.
The main issue that I have run into with horns is that they do poorly in a near-field situation. You have to have about 8-10 feet to make them work, so that you get proper correct blend between drivers. If you are that close to The Classic Audio speakers, you have to be sitting down or the tweeter output is missing. This works OK for me at home, despite a slightly smaller than average room, as my listening chair is at about 11 feet. Further back, in the dining room, I can be standing or seated and it makes no difference.
John Wolfe does wind his own field coils. |
They sound like a PA system. Go figger. |
I have found this to be a very educational thread. Well done to those making positive contributions.
I too heard the CAR setup at Akfest and thought it sounded quite good. But as a point of comparison, for substantially less money and far smaller physically, two non-horn speakers, the Audio Note and the Tom Evans setup were better. Different strokes...
Macrojack, you are proselytizing, but the true believer mark was over the top. My apologies. |
Ralph,
I would agree - they are at their very best in farfield applications (12 feet+). This allows the narrower dispersion to better integrate with the room. Horns are outstanding in larger rooms and large venues - in these applications they can outperform conventional dynamic designs both in low distortion and in sound quality. As you get to really big spaces, conventional designs just can't cut the mustard in terms of dynamics, overall SPL whilst maintaining low distortion).
Movie theaters sound absolutely awesome and they almost ALL uses horns. |
"Why don't you use horns?"
Well you asked, so I'm going to tell you even if this post does not offer any glamorous contribution to this thread.
I have no quarrel with people who love their horns. More power to them. But for those of us who are very happy with their systems that use more traditional cone/dome-type drivers, why should we be interested in them?
If I were starting over, it might be fascinating to experiment with horns. But at this point I am not seeking some new (for me) speaker paradigm that offers supposedly "better sound." That's why I don't use horns. Very pragmatic, if somewhat boring, answer.
Happy listening (no matter why type of system you like). |
Proselytizing? Me? Well, perhaps I am. But I'm not twisting arms or pushing anyone. I don't care if you don't like horns. I just notice that there are people out there who would argue passionately about the enormous difference between power cords but dismiss all horns with a single flippant comment about honk. Plainly they do not all sound like PA systems.
These devices are badly undervalued and misunderstood. They hold a lot of potential and have realized much of it. But some of the responses we've read here demonstrate that I am correct about the confusion surrounding horn based loudspeakers. The real purpose of this thread was to get people talking and to get the record straight. I think there has been some success. |
Generalizations about horn systems tend to short-change models that are exceptions to the "rules", and in high-end audio it is the exceptions that are usually the most interesting.
I started out with as strong a prejudice against horns as you'd ever be likely to find. Over the years my perception has changed (with John Wolff's designs acting as the catalyst), and I now believe that the downsides can be overcome while the upsides offer worthwhile improvements, particularly in radiation pattern uniformity and dynamic contrast.
Recently I received an e-mail from a manufacturer of high-end solid state components, and referring to a horn system he said this: "I have not heard speakers that were more 'relaxing'. Honestly they were so damn smooth."
I have every reason to believe Macrojack's perception of his horn system, as I'm somewhat familiar with the work of its designer and he certainly qualifies as "exceptional".
Duke
dealer/manufacturer |
There is a saying in Zen,
If you are off by an inch, you are off by a million miles.
This particularly applies to horn loudspeakers.
Horn speaker design is either on, or its not, and if its not on, by virtue of its greater dynamics and higher overall efficiency, horn speakers which are not well designed (most) are rather more awful than their direct radiator brethren.
The conical horns you are now enjoying and find worth remarking on are a notable deviation from everything that has come before in commercial horn design. It's not something that people on Audiogon will be likely to discern, but I am glad that this thread may bring horn speakers to the attention of a larger public on this site.
Jonathan Weiss
Oswaldsmill Audio (OMA) |
The above two posts come from two of the leading lights in American loudspeaker development. Both refer to Bill Woods of Acoustic Horn Company in Hastings, Ontario. Even though I own and love his horns I was unaware that Bill stands alone in horn design as they both suggest. While very impressed with what I own, I was a bit naive, I guess, in that I did not realize that my horns are not so typical of better horn design. Duke and Jonathan are very well traveled and accomplished manufacturers of small scale cutting edge loudspeakers so praise from them carries the weight of validation. For my part, I don't get out much. I don't go to shows and there are no interesting dealers anywhere near here. Hence, I approached this thread with a belief that my horns were somewhat more typical than these guys seem to think. OOPS!!!
Bill has been my guide in pursuit of owning quality horns. Now I learn that he may be the world leader. How nice. But how foolish I must look. Maybe other horns do honk. Maybe they all fall apart when playing loud. Mine sure don't. |
I just read my above post and discovered some very poor wording. I said that Duke and Jonathan are manufacturers of small scale loudspeakers. What I should have indicated is that they are limited production, not small scale. From what I've read, they both are well regarded, well received and quite popular state of the art options. |
You can have my horns when you pry my cold, dead hands off of them. :-)
So many generalized statements about horns, kind of like the ones we horn guys make about monkey coffins and other boxes.
Maybe someone should start a thread about why people settle for cone and dome boxes. |
Let's not be adversarial about this. Any speaker is a legitimate option. Horns are being rediscovered after years in P.A. oblivion. The process has been slow because of bias born of popular myth and actual poor performance. Now there are legitimate contenders for best available sound honors to be found in the horn community. My effort here is to open the door to consideration for horn designs among the broader audiophile membership. Those who choose to ignore the invitation to consider horns have their reasons. That's fine. Some of them may reconsider, however, if they see intelligent conversation endorsing the choice. That is what I hope we are doing with our comments.
Did I mention that horns will bring a level of excitement to movies that conventional audiophile speaker designs cannot ever match? It's true. That's why movie theaters still use horns even though they have the technology and budget available to install any other type they might want.
If you are getting a little bit bored these days, if your last few system changes just haven't lit you up, then maybe you are tired of your speakers' limitations. That's what I've heard from several guys I've talked with recently. It happened to me too. Check out the horn speakers a lot more carefully next time you attend an audio show. Maybe you're fun will come back to you through a megaphone. |
Herman... My thoughts are along the lines cited by Apollo66.
Sorry, I can't give you a list of all the horns I have heard. And, since 1958 I never owned one. (It was then that I discovered their performance with horn music Dixieland Jazz). Based on what I did hear along the way I never saw any reason to do further investigation of horns.
Perhaps the new generation of horns are different. However they are too expensive. A technology that requires such cost is inferior.
To cover the full spectrum...
I can't stand horns.
Ported box speakers make good bird houses.
Acoustic suspension speakers are OK.
Line array speakers are good
Planar speakers are the best.
Have I failed to insult anyone out there? :-)
|
"To cover the full spectrum...
I can't stand horns.
Ported box speakers make good bird houses.
Acoustic suspension speakers are OK.
Line array speakers are good
Planar speakers are the best."
Just for fun, I'll add fuel to the fire and assert that omni Walsh drivers are the best.
I've owned planars and various box designs. Never horns. Horns are new territory I might explore someday. |
Wow what responses;get out the bullet proof vests. |
Eldartford, and Appollo66, I remember back in the early 90s Harry Pearson said about horns: "they aren't high end". He turned out to be wrong about that, even back then. Since then of course horns have continued to improve.
I enjoy mine not simply for volume. They are faster, more resolving and more cohesive than the best magnetic and ES planars I have heard. The same comparison holds true against regular cone systems; price is really no object either. I enjoy a good stereo, and I try not to be so snooty that I will not allow a good sounding system to be discredited just because the owner did not do it the way I would have- I try to keep an open mind.
So when I say I prefer the horns I do, its over mbls, Wilsons, Sound Labs, Quads, Magnaplanars, Appogees (and their current clones, which are quite good), Avalons, Dalis and many other excellent speakers too numerous to mention. Further, I don't expect horns to always be on top; all technologies improve and one has to be ready to pick up and move if you want to stay on top :)
Right now an excellent example of technology on the move is the High Emotion Audio loudspeaker, the same people that were behind the Pipedreams from 10-15 years ago. They have a new tweeter technology that, if described in a nutshell, is a cross between a planar and a horn, literally its a planar with the shape of a horn and so its about 112db 1 watt/1 meter. Just like the best horns, its also very very fast and super detailed- maybe the fastest I have ever heard (although not bright at all). Although it is not a traditional horn, at the same time it should not be excluded from this conversation, although the actual applications I have heard it in have only been about 92-93 db efficient monitors.
So in a nutshell, the reason one might choose a horn is that the right ones most definitely do work quite well, regardless of one's prior preconceptions. I know this because this is where I started from too- thinking that horns don't work for high end applications. They won me over, kicking and screaming. |
Watch out Ralph I think there could be a few daggers coming your way. |
Atmasphere:Okay...very well put. Big thumbs up.
Mapman: new Discoveries, are the Best.
Shadorne: great comments, and useful information. Thanks.
Oh, I Love that brown Leather! Beautiful listening room.
Csmgolf:Sorry, I never intend to be cruel at all; some people
do not know what a "subwoofer" is, visitors very often ask what they are.
No doubt the Horn speakers, have come a long way, and IMHO,
I think they will always be popular, to Music lovers.
I. Love Music! |
Atmasphere,
I could not have put it better myself. I spent many years with magnepans, apogees etc. So I hope you understand that I could never have a colored speaker. Especially with the "honk" people keep mentioning.
I now have 110db horns and could not be happier. In fact in some ways the electrostat has some things in common sonically with a good horn. Where it gets left behind is the dynamic freedom, weight and ease a horn has.
When I hear other highend speakers these days they tend to sound distant,unresolved and flat compared to my horns. Not to say all horns are great of course.
Some audiogoners should try to invest some time in listening to a good horn set up. Half the reason this hobby can get confusing is because so many have great opinions without doing any real listening or having experience to go with the strong opinion... There is a lot out there to hear but not much worth keeping. |
Many people today are unable to differentiate between what they actually know and what they have chosen to believe. Experience draws a bright line between these two opposites. |
Horns are music and instrument selective. No speakers can reproduce the sound of a sax better than a horn. All speakers are music selective to some degree. |
"Horns have unexploited potential. Lets get busy harvesting their potential. Most other options seem to have reached their limits long ago"
Well said and I agree 100%. I will add that the progression of horn technology is the single best hope for getting closer to the dynamics of the live music experience. Lot's of problems getting it right as outlined above including the small market. This technology is not getting R&D funds of the larger speaker manufacturers and is progressing on the backs of a few dedicated small companies and the DIY enthusiasts.
|
Herman, The tweeters a horn Fostex t500amk2 , mids horn, midbass horn and the bass system is a 8ft tall back loaded bass horn. If you want full front loading of bass into infra sound as this horn does it would be 25ft l by 25 w. |
Horns were the dominant speaker technology for many years, probably due to the unavailability of reasonably priced high out-put amplification. Once reasonably priced high-out-put amplification became available, horns became less popular. Now that there has been a resurgence in the popularity of low powered amplification, the popularity of horns has increased. IMHO, the recent popularity of horns has more to do with accommodating certain amplification choices, than with any inherent superiority horns might have unto themselves. |
Horns can be designed to work great at less than 10ft sitting distance depends on design. |
|
Johnk - Since you know what you are talking about, it would be helpful if you would explain your points rather than just issuing pronouncements that people like me cannot understand. Why would a front loaded bass horn need to be 25 x 25? Why is this not true of a rear loaded horn? How is it that horns can be designed to operate at less than 10 ft. listening distance? Would this horn be front loaded?
Part of the reason I started this thread was a hope that doing so might clear up a lot of the confusion and misunderstanding surrounding horns. |
Great questions. John and Ralph are way ahead of me with horns but I think we are now getting to the reason why more horn systems are not found. Horns do some things similar to boxes but they also many things differently than boxes. There is simply a lot to learn about how horns work when one attempts to setup a horn system. This is especially true when one is doing a multi-driver system. The size of the mouth opening, the size of the horn opening, the flare rate, etc, all impact the freq. response and sound. And we should be considering whether the horn uses a full range driver, or if the horn is front or back loaded.
I listen rougly 11' from my horns. Ralph hit all of the reasons why we hornies like what we like about horns. It is NOT about volume as so many of the uninitiated think. I rarely listen about 90dB even with rock. I don't need to because I can hear very far into the background which I believe is indicative of a very low system noise floor.
And I chose to build a horn system long before I figured out what amps I would use. In the end, I am triamping. One 50+ watt/ch, PP amp for the mid-bass bins, another 50 watt PP amp for the mid and tweeter, and the bass horns are powered by a pro-audio SS amp. This is all controlled by a Marchand active xover.
So you can see that it can go from very simple to very complicated when we talk horns. Most peoples' eyes, especially those here at A'gon, start to glaze over very quickly. :-) |
As Herman pointed out back loaded horns really are not horns at all. But this has been debated to death in other forums so most agree that a BLH design is a horn. Most as is mine is a combo or large ported cabinet firing into flared TL. Thus able to produce far lower frequency than equal size front horn. To reproduce 15hz a front horn needs to be near the size I mentioned. Most horns for monitoring or closer seating are hybrid designs horn tweeters horn mid standard woofers. I use a massive horn system in my office. I took much care with driver, horn integration, time alignments thus I can sit about 6ft from such. Hard to answer your questions for I'm not a technical writer just a designer. Some can do both not me sorry. I'm lucky I can write at all not my strong point. I does bother me a wee bit that so many in this thread say what I do and listen too can not be done but hey I know it can maybe thats all I need. I think herman was thinking my rigs a bit smaller than it is. |
Mapman, that system looks impressive but that big white "bass horn" with the big driver is not a true bass horn. My bass horn is 16 feet long and gets down below 40 Hz. That is simply a woofer with a flared opening.
Jhonk, I realize how physically large your woofer cabinet is but I am one of those who would not call it a horn. You are correct though that there is no need to debate that. It's yours, you can call it whatever you wish. You are also correct that to go down to 15 Hz a basshorn like mine would have to be much, much longer so if you want to go that low you have made what I would call a good compromise. Getting down close to 30 is low enough for me so I don't have bass envy.
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I was hoping to solicit input from people who know and understand the parameters of horn design. Since we aren't hearing from them, I'll stick my neck out and mention a few things I think I know about the subject. If nothing else maybe we'll learn from the people who correct me.
Horns work for speaker drivers just as a megaphone works for Al Jolson or a cheerleader. It was used as a mechanical microphone, amplifier and speaker before we had electronic ones. I believe the idea is one of focus. The energy generated by your lungs or your driver is channeled through a narrow opening and allowed to disburse gradually, just like reducing the diameter of a water pipe increases the pressure.
The lower the frequency being reproduced, the longer the wavelength and the bigger the horn required. This is why bass horns need to be large. I don't know exact numbers but the mouth has be enormous and the throat may need to be like 35 feet long.
Because the mid and lower horns need to large, you need to be some distance back from them so that their presentation can blend sufficiently before the combined wavefront reaches you.
The aforementioned mechanical amplification also explains why horns are so efficient.
Some reasons why horns you have heard in the past were not very pleasant could be poor design, lousy amplification, too damn loud, poor driver integration, cabinet or horn resonance and placement. On this last point, I should stress that, while placement in a high end sound system isn't terribly critical, having the speakers fire at you from similar distances and the same direction could prove very important but be ignored completely by the company who was merely installing "reinforcement". Another matter to reflect upon is the source employed when you heard the horns. It could well have been an 8-track or a beat up record played with a broken stylus. In general horns have been misused far more often than they have been optimally installed.
Metal horns often ring. Many Klipsch owners have taken steps to deaden their horn bodies. Passive crossovers in horn designs of the past were quite rudimentary and cheaply executed. Woofer cabinets in hybrid horn systems have sometimes been constructed of broad pieces of plywood with little or no bracing and no dampening.
My horns are made of 12 one inch thick cherry wood petals. They are conical in shape, meaning the flare is perfectly straight with no elliptical contours. The throat is made of cast aluminum. No ringing, no resonance. I used a pair of JBL L-200 cabinets for my bottom end and mounted the horns with a simple pair of rudimentary brackets bolted to the back of the woofer cabinet. I completely bypassed the native horn and passive crossover and hardwired my amps to their assigned drivers. Then I bought a dbx Drive Rack PA to serve as active crossover, EQ, time delay and level matcher. Because of the extreme efficiency I am able to use excellent sounding low power amps for small money ($300 each) to drive this system and I must say that it will make you swallow your gum. Total outlay 18 months ago was under $5K for everything from the DBX to your ears. The preamp admittedly wasn't cheap. It's a Parasound JC-2.
So I hope this offers some clarification about product, price, placement, performance and pleasure.
Comments? Questions? |
Ah, there is another interesting issue with horns. The question of whether or not to do digital xovers. Digital xovers do make it possible to time align even when the horns themselves are not. However, I am on of those who prefers vinyl source to CD. Naturally I am against ANY digital device in the chain so I chose not to use a digital crossover.
Instead I have the voice coils of the drivers, except the bass horns, physically aligned. (There is a bit more to it, but that is basically how they stack.) So I have a little more work to do with regards to reflections off of the other horns, but there is no digital xover I have found that sounds like I want. |
"the throat may need to be like 35 feet long"
I can see the converts lining up now..... |
Dan - I can hardly fault you for being an analogue purist but please keep in mind that everything in audio demands compromise. To my way of thinking the benefits and convenience introduced by digital processing outweigh the theoretical advantages held in place by analog austerity. Two equally valid approaches. Everybody is happy; nobody is wrong.
Mapman- Your cynical asides are not helping me any. Do they enhance your situation in some way? Do you suppose 32 foot organ pipes are used where a 3 footer would do just as well? Yes, bass horns must be that long if the frequency you strive to reproduce is low enough to require that length. Sometimes this is accomplished by folding the horn. Whatever you are using is a poor substitute for horn bass because you don't know the difference or because you can't accommodate the real deal. I don't have the room or the budget either. The photo link you provided is an example of someone who has the knowledge, dedication and wherewithal to do it right. Do you admire his system or not? |
"Do you admire his system or not?"
Yes.
I just think it it a bit ironic to ask the question "why not horns" and then assert that a 35 foot throat is needed for full range bass. It may well be true but that fact does not support an argument that people should go the horn route.
Also I applaud those who strive to do anything right, but frankly this thread is scaring me further away from horns personally than when I started. Sorry. |
