Why no interest in reel to reel if you're looking for the ultimate sound?

@rrcpa is correct. Open reel can be a PITA, but when its up and running, holy cow....its the  best audiophile elixir you can get your hands on.

@cd318

Digital is measurably better than analogue by any known yardstick

This is known as ostentatious ignorance.

Expense, Pain in the a-- factor, Availability of recordings. Expense. Service & Support. Expense... but if you’ve really got the HiFi bug, they are the pinnacle.

A good cassette from the mid 80s to mid 90s, on naked Grado SR-60 headphones sounds very close to electrostatic speakers in terms of dynamics and speed. Awesome, dude! Get the ones on Capitol, Elektra, Virgin, Atlantic, I.R.S., Reprise, MCA, and others. 

Turntables are for real audiophiles,

My dealer who has both a great quarter inch reel to reel tape machine and also a great turntable claims that his 45 rpm jazz records sound very close to his tape machine jazz recordings.   With classic music, I myself have at least fifteen 45 rpm lp's that were transferred from 35 mm magnetic film tape which is over five times larger than the quarter inch tape that audiophiles are using.   Initially the costs for a great turntable set up are quite high, but with the right amplification, speakers, and lp's you can recreate a live performance in your own home.

@cd318

Digital is measurably better than analogue by any known yardstick

speak for yourself. Analog is measurably superior to digital by the account of many audiophiles. 

I don't have a problem with digital recordings if recorded using proper techniques.  (In classical music, too many distantly miked recordings have huge ambiance space but insufficient direct sound).  I prefer a more immediate sound, as heard from about the 10th row of a concert hall or jazz club.  I don't have a problem with digital music reproduction with high end DACs.  I am a confirmed analog lover.   I do have all tube pre-amp and amplification stages in both my audio systems for over 40 years.  I tried some higher end SS amps and hybrid tube/SS amps in the past but prefer my all tube gear.

For me, it's more about transistors versus tubes as amplification than it is "digital".  The PC can reproduce analog quite well; it's the SS amplification that's my primary problem in reproducing music.

It seems that only a real music lover can hear the difference between SS and tube amplification.

rauliruegas, orpheus10,

Interesting exchanges going on there. Ultimately I think you’re both right!

Digital is measurably better than analogue by any known yardstick, and ss amps distort way less than tube ones.

Yet for all its superiority digital has failed to win the hearts of audiophiles worldwide. For whatever reason it has not been able to establish itself as a perfected version of analogue. Certainly not with audiophiles.

This suggests one of two things, either it isn’t better than analogue in the areas it matters most, or we still don’t know how (or can’t be bothered) to get the best out of it. I strongly suspect it’s the latter, especially reading the first hand testimony of earlier posters such as topoxforddoc. The accuracy of digital is not in dispute but the implementation certainly is.

Perhaps it’s because of this industry inability (or sheer unwillingness) to maximise the implementation of digital, (prob due to a lack of correlation between fidelity and profit) many audiophiles might still prefer the impressionistic tone of analogue and tube amps to the photo clarity of digital.

Maybe it’s because that even a precise snapshot will always fall short of the real thing, whereas an impressionist depiction might get the essentials right, some prefer the latter.

Same goes for r2r. It’s the big brother of the cassette deck and the daddy of all pre 80s vinyl. Analogue at its finest.

Digital recording must be better
intrinsically as all the evidence suggests, but it just hasn’t proved it yet, not on a mass scale. In fact you could argue that most modern recordings are themselves only an impressionistic attempt to create a palateable musical concoction with zero effort towards capturing anything like an accurate audio snapshot of an event. Case in point, the Giles Martin Beatles remixes/reimaginings of those 50+ year old recordings.

This sort of audio trickery started with mono but really took off as we moved into 4 track and beyond. Today almost all digital content is recorded, or shall we say assembled, in this manner.

So unless the recording industry begins to take digital recording seriously again (ie higher fidelity as opposed to merely a different means of concoction) on a large scale, there’s no risk of r2r, vinyl or tube amps disappearing anytime soon yet.

@orpheus10 

The point of entry to reel to reel is so much more affordable than getting into vinyl.

For me, the point of entry is getting a machine capable of playing the new 15 IPS master tape dub. A Tascam BR-20, Otari MX5050 BII, or Technics RS-1520 playing an Opus 3 sampler tape would be a good entry point to where the new owner can really appreciate how good tape can sound and superior to many vinyl setups.

As much as we tout R2R, I don't think this is the time for someone new to get in.

I did some recording at 15 IPS and considered it to be a waste of tape for recording LP's; 7 1/2 is quite sufficient.

This thread is a little stale, but I’ll add my bit. To enjoy reel to reel, you don’t *need* 15ips half track master tapes. 7.5ips and even 3.75ips quarter track give you a landslide more dynamic range than vinyl and very little noise. As someone else said, reel to reel is like a treat to the ears, not the most practical thing for every day listening. Even 40 and 50 year old pre-recorded tapes still sound terrific. 

Music has always been very important to me, when I was in high school it helped to visualize my fantasies about this girl or that girl, or how marvelous my life would be when I became an adult.

Now I just enjoy the music without the fantasies. My music is sounding better than ever because of "the quiet grid", I'm also listening more intently as a result of "the lock-down". Before I became an "Audiophile, combination Musiophile"; I had to add that music bit, because music is still more important than the equipment. The purpose of the equipment is to faithfully reproduce the music, not recreate it.

BTW, I've been to numerous electronics schools as part of earning a living, I mention this because when I got into audio it was all about the "specifications" for me; I was always curious as to why those "dumb audiophiles" were paying so much for inferior equipment, when according to specifications my SS was far superior.

It was not until my most prized SS preamp bit the dust, and I wandered into a high end emporium did I discover why those "dumb audiophiles" were spending so much money. "Specifications" be damned, it's all about what it sounds like. As a music lover, I quickly discovered "tubes" were what's happening regardless how much some pay for their SS equipment; SS may reproduce beguiling sounds, but not music.

As far as I'm concerned, people who spend tons of money on SS equipment are hooked on beguiling sounds as opposed to the music that the artist created. As a matter of fact, I am of the opinion that most of the people on this forum are equipment lovers as opposed to music lovers; consequently, "if" I had the money to audition the ultra expensive equipment they review, I would probably be most satisfied with what I have.

@orpheus10    +2 on agreement with @sdrsdrsdr.

look no further than all the prized tube microphones, tube mic preamps and tube playback electronics on the recording side.

"The point of entry to reel to reel is so much more affordable than getting into vinyl."


That sentence is about as ambiguous as a sentence can get; entry level to vinyl is a waste of money, and although I've been into reel since the 70's, I don't have a clue as to what "entry level" is now.

Due to present shipping problems, I don't recommend getting into R2R.


As someone who is as addicted to R2R as a junky is to his stuff, I will comment on my present problems. I was working on my reel, and due to pre-occupation with COVID 19 problems, I goofed and caused major problems; now I have to find parts, and that's where I am now.

I never thought about the AC being cleaner. No wonder my system has sounded so good the last couple of months. 

Some people have the ability to hear but not the ability to "listen". I've noticed that my rig is sounding extra special; that's because of "the quiet grid". This means that almost everyone else's rig is sounding better, they just haven't noticed.

This "lock-down" has produced what might be the quietest grid in history. All that activity that's normally on everyone's AC outlet diminishes a "black background" and holographic imaging. Those are two very expensive items that are produced to a great extent by the expensive power supply on high end equipment, and now you're getting the end result of all that expense for free.

If I'm getting all this improvement, I feel certain you are too, because of the decrease in activity on your electrical grid.

Do some critical listening and tell me if you notice an improvement in your rig?

I have a SONY  KA3ES that I like, they come with exceptional headphone outputs.

My professional portable SONY cassette player with naked Grado SR-60 headphones provides a surprisingly high percentage of the sound of original master tapes. I find myself turning around, startled, thinking someone is standing behind me. So dynamic! Real, baby!

I’m still trying to figure out how I’m going to buy some NOS Telefunkens for my tube phono preamp.

You can go up the ladder, but it ain’t easy if you have to come back down; although I haven’t gone as far as that cartoon.

"As to amplification, if the speaker is a difficult load, I would choose high powered SS"

I would have no objection to that, but my speakers are 92 DB and are easily powered by 70 watt tube mono blocks.

It seems that connoisseurs  of good music, like connoisseurs of fine wine prefer tubes.

Funny story; I was with some connoisseurs of fine wines, and every time they opened a bottle they poured me a glass because 3 glasses came in each bottle.  While they were going all "Ga Ga" over the wine, all I knew was that it tasted better than Mogen David, or Rosy O Grady.  If it had been fine music I could have commented.

I perform and record with a symphony, chamber group and choirs at Disney hall, Royce Hall, Gindi auditorium, Ford theater, etc.   I know what live music sounds like.  I chose 100% tube amplification (phono, pre-amp, amps) but SS for a DAC and for my two video systems' audio.  I've heard great SS and tube gear at shows and salons.  As to amplification, if the speaker is a difficult load, I would choose high powered SS.  If it is an easier load, then tube.  That's my preference based on five decades of audiophile experience.   I do not have SOTA equipment but high end affordable gear.

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/download/file.php?id=69313&mode=view

Cheers

@orpheus10  : MUSIC has no name: tube, SS, digital, analog, etc, etc.
MUSIC has the unique characteristic to " move " any one no matters what, MUSIC always has LIFE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG0vH4WYChQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2

R.

Before I gave a thought to tubes or transistors, when I was in high school in the 50's, I listened to the radio. During this time the music sounded special. In the 60's, after tubes were replaced by transistors, it didn't seem to sound as good.

The most dramatic change was when juke boxes in lounges went all SS plus digital; people quit playing the jukebox, it was flat, no life.

You got it Schubert!

 Those who do not listen OFTEN to LIVE acoustic music aka , jazz or symphonic, have not given their brain a tract that understands what music really sounds like.
Those who have tend to use tubes because they alone sound like a room
with air in it .

Raul, what you don't understand is the fact that for all of my life, I never listened to anything else but SS. My audio education was with Julian Hirsch and "Stereo Review", and neither him nor the magazine was into tubes; as a matter of fact, I don't recall anything but SS.

When we (my audiophile friend and I) auditioned that CJ tube preamp (loaner) that was obviously defective, with both noise and distortion, but the music sounded better; that SS preamp that I owned at that time was certainly the last SS preamp I will ever own. His ears were so keen that he could tell when I replaced interconnects.

I have a Technics 2 Track 1500 that has been modified with Black Gate capacitors when such things were available, that I'm quite satisfied with.

My speakers are custom built to have 0 sound of their own. An "eccentric" speaker design engineer designed the crossover, and I picked out the drivers. They're so neutral, that you can immediately tell the difference between interconnects.

I've listened to many beguiling speakers that had a sound of their own, such as Klipsch La Scala, and many others that sound very appealing, but my speakers simply put out what you put in, meaning I get nothing but what the artist intended.

I have often wanted to compare my speakers to other speakers, but that's no longer an option since brick and mortar stores no longer exist in my area. If and when I get excess funds, I will buy some very expensive speakers that I have picked out and finally compare.

Dear @orpheus10  : ""  I borrowed a high end ARC SS preamp for audition, and me and my audiophile friend listened for only a few minutes before we decided to return i ...""

Seems to me that you don't read what I posted to you:

" In the other side normally when a gentleman accustomed to years of tubes designs makes a comparison with SS units he is waiting that what he will listening it comes with similar colorations that tubes he is accustom to and this is the trouble for him because SS just can't sounds/performs like tube in almost any way, SS is faithful to the recording adding the less and losting the less when tubes are the other way around. "


But your experiencewith SS gone further when you say: " a few minutes ".

I can't understand what you and your friends were waiting/expected to listen after " minutes " when all where accustomed to tubes for YEARS?.
Your mind/brain does not " permit " other kind of sound but the one developed by tube electronics.

Your experience means almost nothing and useless.

MUSIC is not sweet or or heavy colored, gentle,  and the like. MUSIC is agresive, brigthness, powerful, with natural colorations, fully dunamic, great rythm, up-front, full emotive, etc, etc.

You and your friendsd need to have several experiences to listen live MUSIC seated at nearfield position like recording microphones and then you will understand why tube experiences are so wrong and SS is truer to the recording.


Please tell us how many minutes or hours can you listen a horn  player playing at real SPL seated at say 3m.?
Your ears can't " resist " a half a hour with out severe permanent damage when a recording microphones can take signal over 120db SPL for hours.

I think that you and @johnss  need that kind of near field live MUSIC experiences before what both posted.

We are talking of different " things ". I'm talking about stay truer to the recording and you are talking of the love you have for those heavy colorations/distortions tubes generates and that the result is that are far away from the recording. Yes I know that that is what you like but your targets are way different from mine.

With out those near field experinces you can't understand what I posted here. Do it, is a learning lesson and helps any one to really appreciate his room/system experience.

R.

Tubes reproduce the inner essence of the music, while SS reproduces a facsimile of the music which can be silent and noise free "sound" that many find quite appealing.

Homer has PrimaLuna integrated, while I have PrimaLuna Mono Blocks, and Audible Illusions Preamp; both are silent without distortion. Tube gear can be brought up a long way with careful selection of NOS tubes as well.


I borrowed a high end ARC SS preamp for audition, and me and my audiophile friend listened for only a few minutes before we decided to return it. That was the end of SS preamps for me.

I would agree with @orpheus10 , In  general modern tube gear is usually more realistic than modern SS gear. On older SS and Tube gear, they both impart their own sonic signature on any signal they pass through.

I do live to 2 track acoustic recordings both to analog and hi rez digital on a regular basis. Have used both high end SS and tube gear and on both analogue and digital recordings.

The tube gear is usually a bit more natural sounding than the SS gear, even though the SS gear can sound very clean. 
Too bad this site does not support any file attachments. I have a number of high rez file that would offer a good comparison.

Dear @orpheus10  : For years I used tubes electronics and owned or listened in my system almost anytubes out there from the one you name it ( CJ. ) to the Audio Note Ongaku-On. I was with tubes because that's what the corrupted AHEE teachs to aLL OF US.

Then and step by step I learned that tubes were and are wrong and can't fully honor MUSIC: noise,distortions, coloratuions and the like impedes that can do it.

So I switch to SS till I found out the " rigth " answers and even was part of the design and manufacture of my phonolinepreamp Essential 3150/3160 that even today is a challenge for any other phonolinepreamp.

I started to learn about when I started to attend more often to live MUSIC events seated at near field position very similar as where normally the recording microphones are " seated ". Before that I always attend at least one time a week to listen live MUSIC.

So, I have some experiences on what to look for in any room/system.

Now, there are SS designs and SS very well designed items and your experiences will depends of the design quality levels and the excecution quality levels of those SS designs.

In the other side normally when a gentleman accustomed to years of tubes designs makes a comparison with SS units he is waiting that what he will listening it comes with similar colorations that tubes he is accustom to and this is the trouble for him because SS just can't sounds/performs like tube in almost any way,  SS is faithful to the recording adding the less and losting the less when tubes are the other way around.

This is not what I like it but what is rigth or wrong. Normally we like what is wrongs thank's to that corrupted AHEE and that's all.

R.

@johnss "You should hear Revox with the internal playback electronics by passed with tube playback. really spectacular!!"

Oh, I have hear that this is the way to go for sure! Arian Jansen who modified my ReVox and whom I also purchased it from does that tubed pre mod in his more expensive decks.  Arian also makes GREAT tapes!  Dana

completely agree with @homer_skins.........tubes are the way to go with tape or vinyl.....more realistic sounding. have owned 5 figure SS and tube phono stages; even the best SS has a dryness to it. tubes do not.

You should hear Revox with the internal playback electronics by passed with tube playback. really spectacular!!

Tubes all the way baby! I run my VPI Prime Sig Rosewood through a Bob's Device SUT, then an Aric Audio Transcend tubed phono stage with a separate chassis for the tubed power supply, and then into a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier. Phenomenal and dead quiet. My ReVox PR99 MKI is the same way - super silent into the Primaluna and an auditory delight!

Raul, I'm an electronics technician, that's how I earned a living. There was a time when I lived by specifications, and SS was always the best.

When my highly rated SS preamp bit the dust, I decided to try tubes. A dealer sent me a a CJ tube loaner, it was a PV10. This preamp had "apparent" distortion, there was no mistake about it, but the music sounded better.

I invited an audiophile friend over to evaluate who hears better than me. He immediately noted that although there was both noise and distortion, the music came through all of that, and it sounded better "musically".



Some people like the "sound" of things while others distinguish how close whatever it is to live music; it's possible that the sound they like is not the closest to live music.


I believe what I say is "true", while you believe what you say is true. In the end, it's not about the truth, but what you prefer.

Dear @orpheus10  : ""  while SS makes a facsimile of the signal..""

exactly as tubes or any reproduction medium.

Btw, first than all I'm a music lover and the hardware is a necessity for we can reproduce the software at home and I always try to optimize that hardware to achieve the best I can through my room/system in order to put the MUSIC enjoyment as high is posible. Tha's all.

R.

For me it is another very expensive rabbit hole.  If you have the cash and inclination, so be it.  Most that I have encountered chasing this Nirvana reserve bragging rights and usually that's all they want to talk about.  I've heard a few mega expensive setups at audio shows and I just came to the conclusion that it's just not practical for those who aren't well heeled or willing to spend that much to receive the diminished return.  FWIW.

@topoxforddoc 
Yeah, I thought long and hard before passing that Sony up. I'm good with my Ampex ATR-102 and two Studers. There's some work I need to put into the rest of my equipment and have them all working at an optimal level is my focus.

@cd318
1) Yes, a high quality digital transfer of a 15 ips tape is pretty much the same as the tape original. Prism Sound have had a good reputation for their A2D converters, and they sound very natural with plenty of air.
2) Most distribution masters sent to pressing plants across the world were flat zero level copies without any vinyl EQ. EQ was applied by the local mastering engineer, when the local lacquer was cut for that domestic market.
3) The music industry is now more focused on people listening on their phones. High quality audio listening is the preserve of the few now.
4) A 30 IPS 1/2 inch tape is even better, but they are few and far between.
Charlie

topoxforddoc,

"I can testify to that, having archived many 15IPS master tapes in my collection in a straight zero level transfer with a professional Prism Sound A2D converter. The digital file sounds pretty much indistinguishable."


Wow, is digital really that close to capturing original studio sound quality? Can you do level transfers for those tapes that were intended for vinyl?

Do you think this would also be the case for 30IPS recordings? A lot of questions I know, but the closest I ever got to play with something like a Studer was to walk past one parked outside the studio where I did some voluntary work.


"The problem is that many modern digital files are not just transferred, but remastered from the tape, and are often made worse. This is particularly true if compression is added after the transfer to make the sound "better" on a phone, rather than on an audio system."


Yes, and it’s these remastering alterations that usually cause the headaches for some of us audiophiles.

There seem to be an awful lot of problems preventing what was recorded (on tape destined for vinyl) to make its way to digital with the same end result. In a perfect world a CD/download would be (could be?) an identical copy of the original vinyl release without any of its issues.

Yet this seems to be beyond the efforts (or most likely wishes = $$) of all those involved.

A good case in point, amongst far too many to mention, has been the failure to deliver a copy of the classic The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society album that would make us forget all previous releases.

Or maybe I’m getting all this remastering business confused by assuming it’s intended for those in pursuit of a better sound.

Obviously, despite what they may suggest, it isn’t is it?

Wow, first time I've seen a Sony AVR R2R on YouTube.  Very nice, looks professional.  I wonder about why teflon/delrin wasn't use instead of steel along the tape path.  It would be magnetically neutral to the tape and just as smooth.  Steel paths require demagnetization (at least my R2Rs get demagnitized along with the heads).   Any answers?

Raul, I agree with almost everything on your most recent post, but it's impossible to have 0 distortion, plus 0 noise and good "music" reproduction with SS; that's because of the way SS amplifies signals as opposed to tubes. Pure music can only be amplified by class A tubes, while SS makes a facsimile of the signal that may sound ever so pleasing to many ears because it can be 100% noise and distortion free (according to measurements)

The big question is, "Are audiophiles equipment lovers or music lovers"? From most of the comments, I believe they're equipment lovers, but that's just fine with me.

The sony APR machines are really nice.

I would not worry too much about missing out on the 1/2 inch parts.

I had a 1/2 inch MTR-20 14 inch reel capable machine, for many years. finally sold it when I realized it had not been used for some time.

half inch masters are really tough to find, unless you have your own you can play.

best

@scar972 

You should have bought the Sony APR5003. It's the real sleeper in the R2R world. Spares are a problem, unlike Studer and Otari. The multi-pin connector for the headblock is totally unobtanium.

But the Sony has a really lovely transport and is really kind to tape. OK, it's a forced guidance transport, as opposed to the precision guidance on the A820 and A80. But the Sony is a superb design.

The calibration is all software driven with 3 store settings for each of 3 tape speeds. It will work at 3.75, 7.5, 15 and 30 IPS; you can run 3 speeds at any one time (the change down to include 3.75 is done with dip switches in the removable headblock).

The stock electronics sound really clean, and I wouldn't be interested at all in external tape repro preamps.

Finally, you can switch from 1/4 to 1/2 inch very easily. I missed out on a 1/2 inch headlock and rollers about 4 years ago. I still regret not buying that.

Charlie

Dear @orpheus10  : ""   always commenting on distortion and noise. ""

Look, for me the main differences between any two room/systems quality levels resides/belongs to which comes with lower levels of any kind of distortions/noises/resonances/vibrations generated by that room/system.

Main target in a room system: put all kind of those distortions at minimum and this permit us to listen more and better MUSIC signal information that was hidden behind those every kind of developed system distortions.

Maybe all those doe not have sense to you but that is always my take and that's why I post so often about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

topoxforddoc

https://i.vgy.me/Rye2Pf.jpghttps://i.vgy.me/OfKMvT.jpg
https://i.vgy.me/0tcXOh.jpg ...
https://i.vgy.me/xvuxdA.jpg

Holy S&@*&!
Sweet!

@topoxforddoc Very nice collection of professional equipment you have there! I had a chance to pick up a Sony APR 5003 at a good price but had to pass it up, how does it compare to the others you have? I have no room left for another large piece of equipment.