Why no interest in reel to reel if you're looking for the ultimate sound?

Dear @roberttdid : I think it’s useless for you follow the geo game. You don’t have to prove nothing, all we know in Agon who really is geo and he is " all what he think he is ".

I don’t care any more about.

R.

Dear @cd318 : """  For whatever reason it has not been able to establish itself as a perfected version of analogue.    Certainly not with audiophiles """

That's not the purpose/target of digital media. Why should be that way when both mediums are way different?

Are those audiophiles true expert audiophiles or only LP lovers accustomed to?

@rrcpa : """  Music (sound) is analog and by changing that signal to digital something is lost. Something is lost once again when you change it back to analog so your ears can understand it.  """

First about that lost in digital. The lost of information during LP playback exist at the cartridge stylus tip when ridding the groove modulations because that tiny stylus tip can't pick-up all the information recorded in those LP grooves and not only that but at that micro level the stylus tip jumps between grooves modulations, very tiny and microscopic level jumps: this is that the stylus tip momentaneous lost direct contact with the vinyl surface. Additional to that exist all what  @roberttdid posted:

"""  let's talk vinyl. RIAA equalization and de-equalization coupled with potential for imperfect cartridge loading, tracking error, etc. throws away level information, and the limited channel seperation throws away a ton of data w.r.t. what should have been coming out of each channel ..."""

and that losted information never can be recovered, is lost for ever.

In the other side of your statement the human been ears listen not in " analog " but digital. Yes in the inner ear part we have an ADC mechanism for we can listen the sound as we know it. No we can't hear anlog information, we have to convert it in digital. Here we can read about:

................................................................................................................


"" 

By now, the audio signal has reached the inner ear, and that means the cochlea. This snail‑shaped organ is filled with liquid. Logically enough, it must be waterproof, in order to prevent any fluid leaking. This explains the purpose of the round window, a small, elastic membrane on the surface of the cochlea. Its purpose is to allow movement of the fluid inside the cochlea. Liquids are incompressible, and without this membrane, the fluid enclosed inside the cochlea would completely block the ossicle movements. Indeed, stiffening of the oval window can lead to hearing losses of about 60dB.

Inside the cochlean we find the tectorial membrane, which moves along with the pressure variations of the cochlear fluid. As shown in Figure 3, above, this membrane is in contact with the cilia on the top of the hair cells. There are two kinds of hair cells. The outer hair cells are the actual receptors. When the tectorial membrane moves, so does the hair on the the outer cells. This movement is then encoded into electrical digital signals and goes to the brain through the cochlear nerve. The inner cells have a different role: when the audio signal gets louder, they stick themselves to the tectorial membrane in order to limit its movements, playing the role of another dynamic compressor.Figure 3: Inside the cochlea.

This tectorial membrane exhibits a clever design. Its stiffness is variable, and decreases gradually towards the center of the 'snail'. This is a way of tuning the membrane to different frequencies. In order to understand the phenomenon, consider guitar tuning. When you want pitch of a string to be higher, you stretch it so it gets more tense, and stiffer. Generally speaking, stiffer materials are able to vibrate at higher frequencies. This makes the tectorial membrane a bank of filters, with an important result: outer cells are frequency‑specific, each group of cells being dedicated to particular frequencies. Also consider the inner cells, and their ability to attenuate the tectorial membrane's movement. They function as a frequency‑specific compressor — in other words, a multi‑band compressor!

The tectorial membrane's decreasing stiffness towards its end serves another important purpose, which is frequency tracking. A particular audio frequency will set the membrane in motion at a particular position, and that vibration will be sensed by a specific set of outer cells. A comparatively lower frequency will set the membrane in motion closer to the centre of the 'snail', and that vibration will be sensed by another set of outer cells. The brain, by analysing which set of outer cells was put in motion, will then be able to tell that the second frequency was the lower one. Notice how, during this process, the tectorial membrane really acts in the manner of a filter bank, performing an actual spectral analysis of the input signal. Figure 4, below, illustrates the rough position of a few key frequencies on the cochlea.Figure 4: Filter bank frequencies on the cochlea.

Harmonic sounds come as a set of regularly spaced pure tones: if the fundamental frequency is 100Hz, the harmonic frequencies will be 200Hz, 300Hz, 400Hz and so on. As shown in Figure 5, each one of those frequencies will correspond to a particular area of the tectorial membrane. Suppose a given harmonic sound comes with its fundamental frequency plus nine harmonics. In this case, no fewer than 10 distinct areas of the tectorial membrane will be set in vibration: this provides an abundance of coherent information to the brain, which will have no difficulty in quickly and easily finding the right pitch. This is what makes the human ear so powerful for pitch identification.Figure 5: Pitch tracking inside the cochlea.

With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they're digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters.  """"

Btw, @cleeds  very good link you posted.

A true audiophile, at least, try to understand the whole digiatl medium and how it works and at the same time try to undersant the analog/LP/R2R medium and how it works and only then we audiophiles can understand the why's of its differences, advantages and disadvantages but at the end what it matters is the MUSIC and we true audiophiles must be aimed to listen digital medium along the analog one: not this or the other.

Exist a superiority of one of those mediums over the other? certainly yes but who cares about when we can enjoy MUSIC in both mediums: we have two alternatives about ! !

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@orpheus10  : MUSIC has no name: tube, SS, digital, analog, etc, etc.
MUSIC has the unique characteristic to " move " any one no matters what, MUSIC always has LIFE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG0vH4WYChQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2

R.

Dear @orpheus10  : ""  I borrowed a high end ARC SS preamp for audition, and me and my audiophile friend listened for only a few minutes before we decided to return i ...""

Seems to me that you don't read what I posted to you:

" In the other side normally when a gentleman accustomed to years of tubes designs makes a comparison with SS units he is waiting that what he will listening it comes with similar colorations that tubes he is accustom to and this is the trouble for him because SS just can't sounds/performs like tube in almost any way, SS is faithful to the recording adding the less and losting the less when tubes are the other way around. "


But your experiencewith SS gone further when you say: " a few minutes ".

I can't understand what you and your friends were waiting/expected to listen after " minutes " when all where accustomed to tubes for YEARS?.
Your mind/brain does not " permit " other kind of sound but the one developed by tube electronics.

Your experience means almost nothing and useless.

MUSIC is not sweet or or heavy colored, gentle,  and the like. MUSIC is agresive, brigthness, powerful, with natural colorations, fully dunamic, great rythm, up-front, full emotive, etc, etc.

You and your friendsd need to have several experiences to listen live MUSIC seated at nearfield position like recording microphones and then you will understand why tube experiences are so wrong and SS is truer to the recording.


Please tell us how many minutes or hours can you listen a horn  player playing at real SPL seated at say 3m.?
Your ears can't " resist " a half a hour with out severe permanent damage when a recording microphones can take signal over 120db SPL for hours.

I think that you and @johnss  need that kind of near field live MUSIC experiences before what both posted.

We are talking of different " things ". I'm talking about stay truer to the recording and you are talking of the love you have for those heavy colorations/distortions tubes generates and that the result is that are far away from the recording. Yes I know that that is what you like but your targets are way different from mine.

With out those near field experinces you can't understand what I posted here. Do it, is a learning lesson and helps any one to really appreciate his room/system experience.

R.

Dear @orpheus10  : For years I used tubes electronics and owned or listened in my system almost anytubes out there from the one you name it ( CJ. ) to the Audio Note Ongaku-On. I was with tubes because that's what the corrupted AHEE teachs to aLL OF US.

Then and step by step I learned that tubes were and are wrong and can't fully honor MUSIC: noise,distortions, coloratuions and the like impedes that can do it.

So I switch to SS till I found out the " rigth " answers and even was part of the design and manufacture of my phonolinepreamp Essential 3150/3160 that even today is a challenge for any other phonolinepreamp.

I started to learn about when I started to attend more often to live MUSIC events seated at near field position very similar as where normally the recording microphones are " seated ". Before that I always attend at least one time a week to listen live MUSIC.

So, I have some experiences on what to look for in any room/system.

Now, there are SS designs and SS very well designed items and your experiences will depends of the design quality levels and the excecution quality levels of those SS designs.

In the other side normally when a gentleman accustomed to years of tubes designs makes a comparison with SS units he is waiting that what he will listening it comes with similar colorations that tubes he is accustom to and this is the trouble for him because SS just can't sounds/performs like tube in almost any way,  SS is faithful to the recording adding the less and losting the less when tubes are the other way around.

This is not what I like it but what is rigth or wrong. Normally we like what is wrongs thank's to that corrupted AHEE and that's all.

R.

Dear @orpheus10  : ""  while SS makes a facsimile of the signal..""

exactly as tubes or any reproduction medium.

Btw, first than all I'm a music lover and the hardware is a necessity for we can reproduce the software at home and I always try to optimize that hardware to achieve the best I can through my room/system in order to put the MUSIC enjoyment as high is posible. Tha's all.

R.

Dear @orpheus10  : ""   always commenting on distortion and noise. ""

Look, for me the main differences between any two room/systems quality levels resides/belongs to which comes with lower levels of any kind of distortions/noises/resonances/vibrations generated by that room/system.

Main target in a room system: put all kind of those distortions at minimum and this permit us to listen more and better MUSIC signal information that was hidden behind those every kind of developed system distortions.

Maybe all those doe not have sense to you but that is always my take and that's why I post so often about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @scar972  : ""  I'm more satisfied with my vinyl setup now than ever before and it performs at a high level. ""

Good, but that does not means that that same analog rig can performs way better that what you have rigth now and I'm not talking because those are my " preferences " no I'm talking because I know for sure that that will be when you pull the trigger about.

Anyway, only an opinion, the important one is yours.

R.

Dear @scar972  : I think that you can make some changes in your analog rig to improve the quality level of your analog experiences with.

As I posted that ZYX could be better served by a solid/gimball bearing tonearm as: Kuzma 4 point, Durand gimballed  ( not the unipivoted. ), Reed, VPI gimballed or SME and Triplanar.

In the other side try that the LP stays in direct contact inside the TT with no metal type of mats. If you can try to find out the vintage/out of production Sota Mat    that with out doubt is second to none in that place along the Basis Audio reflex clamp.

Thopse changes can gives you better quality overall performance levels.

My systyem main target is to put every kind of distortions / noises/resonances/etc at minimum and from this kind of way of think and no matters what I stay as far away I can from tube electronics ( any. ) that I experienced in the past till I learned.

R.

Dear @scar972  : First, even that I own 6k+ LP's I'm not looking for the ultimaTE ANALOG ALTERNATIVE.

I'm looking for the ultimate MUSIC enjoyment. My system is a good system with very high resolution and with every kind of distortions at minimum.

I enjoy analog as digital too and today digital alternative is hard to beat even by R2R and we can find out almost any recording through digital mediums.

I can see that you do not own digital audio items and that in the LP analog alternative your best cartridge is mounted in tha Moerch unstable tonearm, not the best approach.

Maybe that's why you like R2R alternative.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.