Because debunking certain aftermarket accessories might affect Audiogon’s revenue? I don’t get it. There were points to be made. It was just getting "good."
OP, You're very good law maker, but I'm very good common sense maker and do not like when laws replace common sense which does not make any sense paaal.
Frankly, I thought the OP was a troll trying to pull our chain. Clearly that was not the case. I have weighed the evidence presented by both sides of the argument, and come down on the sides of Kosst, Georgehi, and Teo_Audio. No bricks rest on top of my electronics, nor silly dots stuck on my wall, nor crystals taped to my myriad cabling. I am quite fascinated with the Dunning-Kruger Effect --- news to me, but Tyversky and Kahneman, in a similar vein of awareness, have extensively documented the cognitive bases for common errors in judgement and their work is completely germane to this discussion of snake oil audio products. The degree to which we allow ourselves to be deluded, about foolish audio gear and lots of other consumer purchases we make, is endless. I think the aims and objectives of the snake oil deniers are quite noble... trying to add some rational thinking to the subject so that the devotees of these very often senseless tweaks can hold on to their hard-earned cash. Yet if you, for example, choose to purchase one or a dozen of GK's tweaks and find them to enhance to a considerable degree your listening pleasure, then by all means do so and don't give a thought to the snake oil deniers. But don't get your nose out of joint when these folks provide contrary rational responses to those perceptions you are having.
” Yet if you, for example, choose to purchase one or a dozen of GK’s tweaks and find them to enhance to a considerable degree your listening pleasure, then by all means do so and don’t give a thought to the snake oil deniers. But don’t get your nose out of joint when these folks provide contrary rational responses to those perceptions you are having.”
Huh? That’s pretty weird since you are one of the most vociferous of the anti tweakers. This is just another excellent example of the new Do What I Say not What I Do style of naysayers and tweakaphobes, pretending to seek the high ground. Pretending to be open minded.
Some examples of Whitestix not so moderate posting,
“Kosst is my audio muse and tells it like it is. GK espouses nothing but nonsense as usual. I certainly get the notion of run-in of gear -- speakers for darn sure, and tubes and electronics to a lesser degree, as well as wire.”
“High anxiety and OCD runs rampant in society, with sellers guilting folks into buying products of little or no utility. It is nowhere worse than among audio-fools. The "fuse-heads" have got the syndrome to a greater degree than most others. I think for some folks, the propensity for self-delusion is rather unbridled. At any rate, I like the way you think. “
“Geoff has as comrade in arms with Teo weighing in on the question raised by the OP. I hear nothing but pablum from the two of them. Kooky nonsense, really. However, if there is some benefit from elevating speaker cable, then get a saw and cut u...”
“Geoff, regardless of the SR tweaks I have auditioned and returned, I have never lost my senses to the degree that would motivate me to try a single one of your idiotic tweaks. Your stuff takes the cake for getting audio-fools to part with their c...”
You can always tell a losing proposition in any area when the purveyor instinctively turns to personal attacks and namecalling when challenged on a topic.
What tweaks purportedly do cannot be quantitated or otherwise objectively measured. They are by their very nature elusive. That can cause problems for certain personality types.
We have all invested in our setups, financially and emotionally. Some then go the extra step and invest in tweaks. What we crave is certainty as to what these devices are doing to our listening experience. When clear answers are not forthcoming, we tend to force the issue, by forming fixed opinions and ideaologies, partially based on what we want to hear rather than what we are really hearing. When challenged, some of us become angry, i.e., defensive at the suggestion that we might have fallen victim to the snake oil salesman.
I have had several costly tweaks in my system for some years now. Were I to suddenly toss them all, I seriously doubt that I would miss them. Maybe someday I'll try it, if I can find the time and motivation to do so.
psag What tweaks purportedly do cannot be quantitated or otherwise objectively measured. They are by their very nature elusive. That can cause problems for certain personality types.
>>>>>>I’m not sure I totally agree with your detective work. I divide tweaks up into two groups. One group can be quantitated and objectively measured, assuming someone actually did measure them, which as I’ve pointed out previously no one ever does, or rarely does. Tweaks I put into this group are vibration isolation devices, tiny little bowl resonators, even crystals in some applications (Room Acoustics), Helmholtz resonators. Audiophiles often assume certain tweaks like crystals can’t be measured or quantified.
OK, so the second group is the one that gets audiophiles’ panties in a bunch. This is the group of tweaks that includes but is not limited to things that go bump in the night, OR things that would be very difficult to measure even though they sort of make sense. This group includes of course the Peter Belt foils and pens and message labels, Machina Dynamica’s Clock and the Teleportation Tweak (duh!), the Tice Clock, contact enhancers, but also more mundane tweaks such as cones and other footers, CD treatments, CD demagnetizers, power cords, power conditioners, fuses, and cryogenics in general, and of course wire directionality.
So I took my 6 foot California King out of his cage today. I didn’t get any oil , but he deficated on my shirt . And I’ve stood toe to toe with Charles Manson . He is ( was ) a skinny, whiny little Ditch Bank Okie . He spent his life in protective custody ( called SENSATIVE NEEDS in the Ca. System) . He was a Window Warrior , that’s a loud mouth that hides behind something safe . Does it really matter wether someone wears a pocket protector or drags their knuckles ? It’s Audiogon. So here’s an unrelated SNAKE OIL STORY - My brother in law is a chiropractor, a very good one . So I’m watching him work on a patient using “ MUSCLE REFLEX TESTING “. Basically , he puts a patient in a position of poor leverage and asks them to push . Then he places a sample of a supplement under their tongue and repeats the process . If their strength to push does not increase , he tries a different supplement and repeats . When he concludes what works , he sells them that supplement . It looks phony . So now I decide to try it . Because I’m Family the treatment is free and supplements are at his cost . So we do the dance and it really works . I’ve done it many times over the years . But check this out . Just before a session I get a full blood panel done per my MD, like 6 vials of blood . Then he tests me and we write it all down . About 10 days later I get my labs back . Although the labs address significantly more items , the handful of deficiencies he notes coincide with my lab results . So my point is I BELIEVE in his testing . But I don’t need to make you believe or get offended if you don’t ! I Suggest things to others , but their experience my be different . Some tweaks are free , like putting a blanket over my 50” glass TV screen . Or listening to my stereo in the middle of the night when “ The Electricity is Quiet “. Some things work and some things don’t , that’s the fun . Some of you guys are way over my head intellectually , that’s cool . But it’s ALL ABOUT LOVE AND RESPECT ! So if anybody can loan me a little snake oil , I’d appreciate it . Now I have to go change my shirt . PS , I LOVE ALL OF YOU AND YOU CANT DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT ! Mike. Hey Wolfie, I went to Foo Fighters last night , it was fantastic!
Its a good idea to separate measurable and non measurable tweaks. I'm pretty certain that equipment isolation is fast becoming practice and will soon lose its tweak status.
And then there's unnecessary engineering, eg where should you stop at, 20kHz, 40kHz, or 80kHz or not at all?
We cannot move forwards without science, otherwise we could call in a Witch Doctor to cast a magic spell on our Hi-Fi. It'd probably work wonders for some....
”We have all invested in our setups, financially and emotionally. Some then go the extra step and invest in tweaks. What we crave is certainty as to what these devices are doing to our listening experience. When clear answers are not forthcoming, we tend to force the issue, by forming fixed opinions and ideaologies, partially based on what we want to hear rather than what we are really hearing. When challenged, some of us become angry, i.e., defensive at the suggestion that we might have fallen victim to the snake oil salesman.
I have had several costly tweaks in my system for some years now. Were I to suddenly toss them all, I seriously doubt that I would miss them. Maybe someday I’ll try it, if I can find the time and motivation to do so.
>>>>>>>That sounds like an operator error. No offense. Since most tweaks, especially expensive ones, have a 30 day money back guarantee you should have established whether the expensive tweaks you invested in worked in the first place. Think of tweaks like components, you’ll be better off in the long run. It’s a little silly to express buyer’s remorse when you didn’t do your due diligence.
The only way forward left is through improvements in microphone, headphone and loudspeaker technology. Distortion figures for amps, CD players, DACs, cables etc are already vanishingly low. Even transducers are pretty good outside the bass region which naturally enough imparts greater stresses on equipment materials and structure. Loudspeakers also have still to get rid of the crossover and remain full bandwidth.
As for recording quality, its out there but perhaps just not in the genres we all listen to. If it becomes profitable for the industry to do so then we might see a huge jump in recording quality. If.
After all, if they could do it in the 1950s, then they should be able to do it far better now that 'bouncing down' in digital is infinitely less harmful. I'm guessing that the consumers back in the early days wanted better sound and the industry wanted to give it to them.
After Beatlemania, everything changed. Or maybe it was already going that way already. The era of the voice was coming to an end. Bing, Louis, Frank, Nat, Judy, Doris, Peggy etc were all on the way out. Their recordings will remain forever.
Mikado and Nonoise said it all. Actually, believe or not, despite the technical & information evolution in so many ways, the world is much worse than fifty-sixty years ago. Remember it ? Back in the swirling sixties Manking had some hope (people like Beatles sang about it), the seventies saw its slow journey to depression, cynicism it was to be exact culminating not only in politics but namely in punk rock and all that rubbish in pop culture. I call it lazy and negative attitude to almost anything so in many ways really. And now finally in the brave new Millenium Mankind has given the power to those who deeply hate democracy, practically everywhere around the globe. Mankind has learned nothing, unfortunately.
The fate of Mankind is in the hands of fools. Quite literally.
The wall on which the prophets wrote Is cracking at the seams. Upon the instruments of death The sunlight brightly gleams. When every man is torn apart With nightmares and dreams. Will no one lay the laurel wreath As silence drowns the screams.
Between the iron gates of fate The seeds of time were sown. And watered by the deeds of those Who know and who are known; Knowledge is a deadly friend When no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see Is in the hands of fools.
Confusion will be my epitaph. As I crawl a cracked and broken path. If we make it we can all sit back and laugh. But I fear tomorrow I´ll be crying. Yes I fear tomorrow I´ll be crying.
A Professor I know at a major American university told me recently that is the norm for students to graduate without ever reading a book outside their major and oft not even that .
Your Prof is right. Universities have become big profit centers with large marketing departments. The cost of books and tuition and salaries of those in the administration have sky rocketed in the last three decades. Student debt is at an all time high. After food and lodging I doubt students have money for much in the way of books or anything.
Kindle should have made thngs cheaper but that never happened as corporate greed took the lower distribution costs as profit.
The much maligned Trump University is symptomatic and not an exception.
Ha, buncha funny guys! Tweaks are just experiments, some of which maybe marginal, some profound, but experimental science none the less. Some become accepted practices, which are used in the industry. Why all of the hubbub bub? If it makes no sense to you then fine, if it does then look for an answer as to why, but the name calling and insulting, mostly by the naysayers does not a rebuttal make.
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