Dear Quiddity, absolutely right. Furthermore - as T_bone has already noted, a long (spiral) spring of say 4-5 inch length will hardly alter its tension because of an increase of 1/1000 or less of its length.
Furthermore - while everybody is talking about small alternations due to record thickness, no one seems today to care about a VTA compliant to the cutting-angle of the groove of the record on the platter......
As for the dynamically balanced vs static balanced mode of tonearms, I would like to note, that every dynamically balanced tonearm is static balanced too.......
If I were Berlinta, I wouldn't use nor design a dynamically balanced tonearm too. This is hardly possible to incorporate into tonearms not featuring a fixed two-point bearing (i.e. gimbal or gimbal/knife). Hard to do at all with string, magnet or uni-pivot bearings.
Anyway - we will at least see one new dynamically balanced tonearm on the "market" within the next 12 months.
I am sure we'll have another very interesting thread then.
Most likely we'll see that tonearm at the RMAF in 2010 too. |
I've kept out of this thread but now that we are getting contributions from people who actually understand tonearm design I thought I might contribute a little.
Frank it is true that VTF will increase with record thickness but by my calculations the effect is very small indeed. Taking a dynamically balanced arm and assuming the VTF adjustment allows say 30mN range for a full 360 degree rotation gives us an effective compliance around 47,000 um/mN assuming 225 mm arm length. A typical record thickness differential of 1mm will cause a change of about 0.02mN which is around 0.1% of typical tracking force.
Mark Kelly
|
Frank (Berlinta),
Thanks for your detailed/clear explanation. Despite similar things being said earlier, it was quite clearly stated. Your comment about spring tension being altered based on record thickness is true for most short springs, but there is no reason why one could not make a longer spring. Also, if the spring mount was tied to the VTA-adjustment base, when you adjust for VTA it would keep spring tension constant across record thickness.
Separately, I'd be interested to hear what people thought about spring dampening materials. |
Aahh, sorry, please ignore my last post as its core content can be found in some of the earlier posts. I replied, not realizing that there were two more columns of posts to read.
Guess I should hit the sack...
Good night,
Frank |
Off the original topic, but hopefully answering a question posted here:
A straight tonearm or a tonearm that is s-shaped(but is in perfect lateral balance) that relies on the counterweight to be moved for setting VTF will NOT cause a VTF change when moved up or down because of differing record thickness, as long as a line connecting the center of gravity of the arm's mass behind the vertical pivot(endstub, counterweight...) and the center of gravity of the arm's mass in front of the vertical pivot(armwand, headshell cartridge...) goes right through the vertical pivot.
But, one can't overcome inertia, so on the up a warp, VTF increases, on the way down VTF will be below its nominal value, then, finally increase above it(think ski jumper when landing) before returning to the nominal value.
If the arm has a total COG below the pivot(due to a low slung counterweight on a unipivot arm or one used on, say, a Rega arm just because it is supposedly adding "stability"(which is what lots of aftermarket counterweight ads claim), the VTF changes are more pronounced due to the resulting restoring force(think pendulum).
A so-called "dynamically balanced" tonearm will not(!), contrary to what I've read here and elsewhere, maintain the same tracking force when used with records of different thickness. It makes no differences whether a coil or a flat spring is used, VTF must increase when the arm's front is raised(spring tension is altered). This is true irrespective of the mass distribution(see above).
The advantage of using a spring is that, while the VTF will increase more strongly on the way up the warp, it will not fall (much)below its nominal value when the arm is on the way down. Mistracking as a result of too low a VTF is less likely to occur.
This was mostly an issue with very high compliance carts(70s and early 80s). Other theoretical advantages are the reduced inertia on arms with reversed tension springs(Rega: zero = - VTF), constant VTF despite a non-level tt platform(not really an argument as any turntable should be perfectly level(but Dual loved to display their cardanically suspended decks with dynamically balanced ULM arms back then...) and the more reliable VTF setting on (European)broadcast turntables(no tools, scales or gauges required for exchanging the cartridge).
Lastly, a dynamically balanced arm with an undamped spring is something I'd stay away from....
Have fun,
Frank |
Dear T bone: The best we can do in a forum like the Agon one is try to learn ( while are there. Over the time, if no one " use/post " on it, the threads disappear/delete in automatic. ) and make a personal archive of what is interesting for each one of us and in the mid-time try to have fun as you can get.
The opinion differences are what make a forum comes " alive " and learning one. In the analog audio world that is full of imperfections/errors/mistakes there is no absolute rules as there is no absolute opinions only relative/flavored ones due to those audio imperfections and different each one experiences: there is no " Bible " .
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear T_bone, the use of the term "occam's razor" seems to be en vogue among US-audiophiles right now........
As I am quite sceptical about the biblical Kain and Abel-picture as a whole, I would rather favour the equal well known picture of the old, lazy and used to enjoy wide homage because of his presence lion all a sudden facing a new competitor showing up in "his" territory.
Even if we were living next door, I doubt that we would see a "keeping up with the Johnsons" situation.
In fact, I am sure that our concepts in the way we want to hear reproduced music are very dissimilar. As are our backgrounds and taste.
I am certainly no philantrophist and I make no secret about this.
Questioning things again and again till you get to the core and being critical about what people really have to show behind their mere words is a lesson I have learned from history - not only of my home country and not only from days past.
But to get to the core and to give your post the answer it deserves.
You are right that the exchange of personal posts between Raul and me does indeed do no good to this thread (although I know that the "oldskool tonearm"-thread - which was MUCH more informative than this one here - was eliminated because of the direct insults exchanged between Bob and Raul).
I do a favour to you, the other Audiogoners, Raul and last but not least me: - I will ignore all posts by Raul from now on.
Will continue to post, but will do so as if he doesn't post at all.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi T_Bone,
let me pick a small _bone, say Chicken_ not a T_bone :-)
>>> Occam's Razor would suggest...<<<
"One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"
I think your scenario is already too conspiracy flavoured for Ockham.
So, what we have here, are two VERY competitive individuals that just can't contain themselves?
I'd got at times to the point, were it passed some others' natural comfort-zone.
In deed, pushing past comfort-zones can be at times educational of sorts. Opening Pandora's box ('can of worms') and then only looking into the same 'can' over-and-over, alas looks a bit more like compulsive-obsessive. Also sometimes called 'over-motivation'.
I do hope your conspiracy theory is not the case, and that Ockham once more got it right :-)
A. |
Because of many threads in the past, some now deleted, most of us know that in these analog threads there are two people who are much more alike than not...
a) One person loves music, enjoys analog more than digital, has acquired a bunch of interesting knowledge over the years, has tried (and still owns) a bunch of turntables, tonearms, carts, has helped build a phono/line-stage, is designing/building a tonearm, has ambitions to design/build other stuff, occasionally sells on Audiogon stuff he has talked about in the past, and does NOT think the FR-60 series tonearms are good tonearms.
b) The other loves music, enjoys analog more than digital, has acquired a bunch of knowledge over the years, has tried (and probably still owns) a bunch of tonearms, carts, has built a TT, is designing/building a tonearm, has designed/built/had built a line/phono stage, and a bunch of other equipment to go with it, has sold things he talks about on Audiogon in the past, and thinks the FR-60 tonearms are better than the other gives them credit for being...
I think there are three possibilities here:
1) it is a shadow conspiracy. There are two people out there with some decent knowledge who at times are polite and can actually virtually exist in the same space. They contribute to a thread which becomes informative, then almost without fail they suddenly turn on each other and do their utmost to kill off the thread and get it removed from the public space. The conspiracy is to remove the analog threads from the archives so that they can later publicly "make up", then release an expensive book called "R&D on Analog", effectively selling us back all the the knowledge that had accumulated in these fora, but making it available to us analog lovers for the low, low price of $100 a pop.
2) it is a biblical sign ("And Brother shall turn against Brother") of imminent unholy retribution being visited upon mankind for our accumulated sins against each other... or...
3) it is a couple of putzes who, if they were neighbors, would compete by having beautiful (but different) gardens which everyone could admire and talk to them about, and would do the rest of their neighbors the service of not talking to each other, but because this is the internet, can't seem to manage even that.
Hmmmm.... Occam's Razor would suggest... |
Dear Raul, tears are running down my cheeks ...........
What great display of humanity and earnest strive for the better in mankind.
Unbelieveable - I never thought I will ever (even not in virtual reality...) meet such an almost holy audiophile soul like you.
All those highly agressive emails directed at me coming under your pseudonym in the past must then be the expression of Mr Hyde sleeping in Dr.Raul-Jekyll ??
Almost unreal.
Almost.
I am sure you will give your "world's best tonearm" to the audiophile community for the mere parts cost and free shipping.
So we will be looking at a price tag below $1k for sure.
As you already do - if unsuccessful - with your "world's best preamplifier".
A pity that the world won't realize..
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dertonarm: I own several cartridges and tonearms ( vintage and today ones. ) not because I'm a collector but because is a learning subject where I need different tonearms and different cartridges too, I use it for enjoy the music and I use it like tools in some of my audio projects.
+++++ " I do not think that any toenarm designer starts the project on designing a new contender for the state of the art because he is "not satisfied" with the current available. " +++++
What you think on the subject has no relevance. I start the tonearm design project because what I already posted, I don't start the tonearm project for " a new contender " but to achieve our targets that can't be reached/fullfill with what are on the market.
+++++ " we're only in it for the money. " +++++
fortunately not all of us are like you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Audiofeil, you're right - it was Frank !
Cheers,
D. |
>>(to quote the Rolling Stones...): we're only in it for the money.......<<
Wrong band.
Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention
1968 |
Dear Axel, ..."The man has the best tonearm, best woman, best system, best ears, best education, best audio knowledge, best superlatives... well."
Well - the tonearm/cartridge combination which gives the best result so far - yes.
Best woman - in my eyes and regarding all significant parameters - yes, of course (as it should be with every happy married man).
Best system - maybe.
Best ears - a full pair of useable ones, with a lot of training.
Best education - a good one.
Best audio knowledge - well, enough.
Best superlatives - no - you and your buddy in middle-america outdo me in this regard.
After we have settled this now - any chance you might come back to this thread with some true input other than euclid geometry and Lurne's concept (which he didn't discover nor were the first one to bring it to audio...) of matching inertia and gravity center and worshipping my taste, audio knowledge and education?
While I am certainly enjoying this it is a bit boring for the others and does not bring any useable input to the topic.
But maybe this thread has already reached its end, as the inital question has long been answered.
Is my impression wrong?
Cheers,
D.
|
Dear Raul, sorry - I can see little to no answers in your system set-up. Owning and mounting dozens of mostly vintage tonearms and cartridges doesn't imply answers.
It looks rather like collecting for the joy of it.
Which is perfectly fine.
I do not think that any toenarm designer starts the project on designing a new contender for the state of the art because he is "not satisfied" with the current available.
This particular phrase is used by most, but in the end it is always the same (to quote the Rolling Stones...): we're only in it for the money.......
Which is perfectly fine too.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Daniel: +++++ " by the way Raul.... how about Syntax's question some posts back whether you can give some input on modern tonearms.... "
do you think that we start our self tonearm design because we are satisfied with the vintage and today tonearms?, please grow-up the answers are in front of you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I sincerely think, that todays prices for the top-flight tonearms aren't so bad. I was browsing through the price lists of the early 1980ies and we had several tonearms back then who demanded a very serious price tag too.
In adjusted buying power we were looking at several (4-6) tonearms in the price range of todays US$8k to 12k.
Serious - it isn't much worse today.
So it hasn't really changed - we had the same game 25 years back.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Raul, the one depressing thing is, that it is no fun to pull someones leg and then you see you still have to explain the sense to him.
Cheers,
D.
P.S.: by the way Raul.... how about Syntax's question some posts back whether you can give some input on modern tonearms to (which was the inital question on this thread - glad to find a way back to it!)?
None at hand ?
You should - since you are working on a tonearm, you should aware of the current state of art (even if you ignore VTA.....). |
Btw, I forgot to tell you that in our ( till today ) two audio design teams we believe that one " route " to follow to improve " things " or to achieve the targets can do it through join/put togeter different target related talents.
Guess what?, it is working with a marvelous/great audio products and this is something that give us a real satisfaction because we are reaching almost all our audio targets, nothing more nothing less.
I understand that you can't live with our modest "sucess " but our targets are different from yours.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: Well there is no doubt that you " fight " and promote in ( just from your very first ever Agon post, ) almost any single Agon thread that FR tonearms trying ( at least ) that its price does not go down against your commercial bussiness and like you say almost everyone knows that: " even me ", of course that through your posts you are trying that the price goes up.
I'm not against your commercial bussiness due that the Agon " moderators " are the only ones that decide about but don't try ( like always ) to distract the attention to a different " road " that your main target: to sale those FR tonearms, making use of the people non know-how.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul, sure - I have 2001 NOS samples of FR-66s on stock and am just waiting for the day their used-market price meets the US$10.000.- mark.
In the meantime I restrict myself to sell off only 4-5 units each month through Audiogon.
How did you know - god man! - you are so clever I can hardly believe it!
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dertonarm: Not really, we are two design teams: José and I for some design items and Guillermo and I for other audio devices.
Well you are your own marketing/advertiser manager at least with the FR tonearms that is your main target and commercial bussiness through Agon.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul, sorry - my mistake - so far I mistook the situation. I always thought the ideas behind the tonearm project were yours, now I realize, that you are the one of your team responsible for public relations.
Now that makes sense.
I do no longer have to wonder about several of your sonic descriptions and technical statements.
My apologize for getting this wrong in the begining - I thought you were into design and technical aspects too, now I know that is not the case.
Cheers,
D. |
Raul, I applaude people that try to realize a vision!
Getting things finished, IMHO, takes calculated/projected time times 3.
So hopefully your arm will be out soon and I get to hear it. My analog voyage has just begun and I have yet to hear anything that can approach the rest of my system. So regards and enjoy life:-) |
Dear Perrew: +++++ " Any idea on the pricing... " +++++
Like in the Essential 3160 phonolinepreamp in this tonearm design we work with one and only one target: to achieve a top quality performance in every single part ( and overall ) of the item design with out any worry about price but only quality performance.
Till today ( that we are not totally finished the tonearm. I'm still making tests . ) we don't have the price not even something " around ".
We want to share this tonearm " new step " quality performance to the biggest people around. We are not audio " business " persons that mainly depend on audio money.
We ( Guillermo, José and I. ) made/make what we made/make because we like it, because we need to be/have better audio items that can help to improve the enjoyment of the pleasure to hear music in our each home, because we all share the same passion for the music and " perfection ". If through the time our designed/builded audio items could convert in an audio commercial bussiness then welcome but this is not our main target.
We already have on paper two other items: a TT and an amplifier, but these units will take a long time to see the " light ", maybe the shorter one could be a cartridge ( that we have on paper too ) that we don't have to build but only design it, we will see.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Ralph: Thank you for your suggestion, I agree.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Let's wait what happens
I guess, some of you will continue to learn and I'm afraid, D. will have a good time with his wife instead and after that, with his System.
Life is not fair. |
Perrew:
ain't blond, ain't Swedish, ain't qualifyin' my man :-)
An' than we havn't' been talking about dat geometry thing either yet.
It's all in dat geometrical here weight distribuition, man!
A. |
Come on guys, what woman do You have, isnt she the best? |
Axel: I read your post again and I can't stop laughin!!!!
Good.
R. |
Dear Axel: Seriously, yo make my day!!!! I'm laughin like a child, thak's for that.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul,
you more better watch it now.
The man has the best tonearm, best woman, best system, best ears, best education, best audio knowledge, best superlatives... well.
No questions asked, "dance like a butter fly, sting like a bee.." Rumble in the jungle next? :-)
Where can we set up the boxing ring?
A. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " And don't worry. " +++++
certainy not, fortunatelly I don't have your attitude: " I don't have audio questions " that put a lot of frustration when you are against a " new " audio topic and you are ignorant on that topic but don't ask because you already know everything but that topic so your " culture " is full of " holes " because you don't ask.
I'm different, I always try to sealed any audio " hole " that I have in my audio culture/audio learning curve.
Your audio life most be a boring one because you can't learn anything because you think you know everythng, well things happen that you don't know and even can't imagine how to achieve a NEUTRAL and UNIVERSAL tonarm, at least not ours.
I understand your deep frustration. Your close mind one way around goes against you and against your sane judge capacity. I'm dogmatic in some ways but at least in positive way and helping to others subjects.
The exciting ( for me ) and emotive factors in the audio world and in specific in the analog area is that there are several aspects on the main analog overall targets for " discover " and learn how to achieve it, I like this exciting " everyday learning " exercise, this put to my audio life a " motive " to go/run/design/build/modified, I don't envy your boring audio life: " I know everything ".
But, at least, on our NEUTRAL and UNIVERSAL tonearm here and today you are ignorant and in this regard we know something that you and your " scientists " don't even imagine, frustrating eh?
Daniel I like to try to be better everyday, maybe one day in the long feature I will stop but certainly not because I learn everything like you.
Btw, that road to rome ( the same straight line. ) you can cross it driving a cycle, driving a Ferrari or just walking, your call!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Perrew, really look forward to.
I am sure we'll have a real great audio and cultured day!
Cheers,
D. |
A. - no, I meant geometry as a way to describe 2 and 3-dimensional matters.
To what particular name you want to associate it is up to you and the history books.
Geometry is a principle of nature.
NOT a principle of man.
Man just try to file it, name it and to credit it to man ........ as you just showed.
Cheers,
D. |
Self-financing youre so right!
If you come Ill show you the good restaurants, and what really good digital sounds like:) Cheers |
D.
>>>there is no such thing ever as a "new geometry".<<<
Geometry in the going sense = Euclidean Geometry, yes?
Now, you just do like your absolutisms, don't you :-)
Nver heard of: János Bolyai, a Hungarian engineer and army officer, one of at least three inventors of non-Euclidean geometry...
Just for the record.
A. |
Dear Perrew, the very best women are self-financing......
Anyway - no, there is no tonearm on the market now or on the market in the future which would justify other than under marketing aspects a retail price of 20k.
The best can be made for far less.
I'll proof.
Lets see - maybe I made it to Sweden in the next 12 months.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Henry, no cryptic, full information ego but not dogmatic......
You may ask too much - you see, we can't have everything.
Cheers,
D. |
Well, then you have to charge 20k for your tonearm to afford all those women:)
If you ever want to meet the other 10 you can always visit here again youre most welcome. |
Dear Perrew, if you browse through Syntax's system it should be quite obvious what he is refering to.
Nice picture of the new raptor in tonearm territory....... black, lean, fast and beautiful.
Mr. Robert Graham - my respect!
And that is something not easy to come by.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Axel, there is no such thing ever as a "new geometry". I believe at least this should be clear to each and everybody.
Lurne's concept idea brings a very special aspect of sttice balance into focus.
His claim that this is the one very important key-stone is however off topic.
In fact - mother nature invented a similar concept/principle of self stabilizing balance as far back as the Carboniferous Period.
Well ahead of all tonearm designers.
It was somehow improved in later years, but the concept was put - dare I using that term... - to an absolute as far back as the late Creataceous.
I am really dissapointed if anyone do ask now what I am refering to.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Perrew,
I am regulary in Koblenz too - family affairs.... but there's no sound there.
Anyway - you are one of the few who will be welcome.
Still vividly remembering my visit to Stockholm in early September 1986.
10 of the 20 most beautiful women I ever saw - I saw that one day in Stockholm.
The best of the other 10 mentioned I married many years later.
Cheers,
D. |
Dertonarm, thank you very much for the invitation, always wanted to see Munich. I spent one summer working in Koblenz actually. |
Syntax, you can make that man a great favour by letting us all know. |
D.
y.s.:
>>As you know - I do not share Lurne's point of view.
Maybe Raul does.<<
Thank you making that quite clear. Must have missed that point last time round. Now what's THAT mean....?
A shortcut? A new geometry? A new ...?
I can go back to rest my case, yet another 'non-compliant' item.
Oh, well.
A. |
Dear Axel, well - why no let Raul comment on the Lurne hypothesis?
As you know - I do not share Lurne's point of view.
Maybe Raul does.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Perrew, I have already built the phono stage which closed the book for me (and for several others who before had all worth mentioning in the top-price region).
If you happen to come to Munich one day - let us know in advance and you are inivited for a nice session and a good coffee at the lakeside.
Cheers,
D. |
If a new Top-high-end tonearm is introduced and his price tag is half of the big Continuum, new DaVinci, Air Tangent (still around ?) etc. - no one will take it seriously.
In other words: you introduce the "best universal tonearm" ( NOT my words...) to the market and put a retail price tag on it of US$3890,-.
There are hundreds of potential buyers on this planet who won't take it seriously and will not even consider buying it to test.
No matter how fancy the cosmetics - no matter if its coming in a cherished antique finish wooden presentation box with gold plated dressings.
You put a price tag of US$20 000,- on the very same tonearm and you will sell 3 dozens to the far east market (and to Russia...) in the first 3 weeks.
Why ?
Because with this price tag the tonearm does transport a huge image, status and "face" to its buyer. This tonearm exists, I mean an actual one, made from a real clever man who tries to move the curtain for years, but from marketing aspects he is too good for this world. I made all comparisons and when I take as a standard a piece of wood with 2 strings and a magnet which is sold for 7k today and I do a Performance (coloration, true tone, Frequency response, Set up, Alignment etc.)/Price comparison, than this actual Arm is easily worth 20K. Easily. But you need a good System to get that result. |
Hi D. --- 201!
Will you be planning to stick to "Pierre Lurné on Analogue Thoughts" geometry inputs, I ask?
The one thing with ALL arms that I cannot recall, be ONE that actually would practice those apparently most important notions.
We spoke about it before, but all I recall was, - using my own words: "Got the cap, got the T-shirt..."
So, either those principals are geometrically correct, and by that token you would ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO apply them, or it be the first time you'd deviate from your path of the ultimate tonearm-truth --- "the Via Apia straight to the centre Rome.."
Would you care to comment, without subterfuges or other deflections, -- lest that whole discourse starts to smell a lot like new-style marketing (at least to me). |
