Why is good, deep bass so difficult? - Myths and their Busters
For not a ton of money you can get the Behringer ultracurve and measurement mic. Then you can put the ultracurve between a digital source and DAC. This will give you all the digital equalization you could ever want. It also allows you to compare the digital signal from the source with the analog signal coming from the measurement mic. Get a tone generator and you can see the difference at every frequency. I did this many years back and it really helped me understand how the room, bass traps and equalization effect the sound. If you aren't willing to do this or similar and you are bothered by uneven bass then I agree that it's best to have a system that doesn't do deep bass. https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-DEQ2496-BEHRINGER-ULTRACURVE-PRO/dp/B000CCN152 |
Nah its not difficult - just requires some room :-) http://pbnaudio.com/speakers/montana-speakers/master-reference-loudspeakers Good Listening Peter |
I can be quite brave when I say I could not justify $12k on a subwoofer. :) Your wallet may be less prone to pain and suffering than mine however, and I welcome you to spend as much as you'd like. I will say that I have plenty of output and my HT has as much output at 16Hz as I want or need. My previous apartment was even better sounding than this one, but I'll survive. Best, E |
oh and here is an almost free tip download vandertones get the analog Radio Shack SPL meter...put meter at listening height at listening position, record what your speakers and the room are doing use the Vandersteen math based ( there is that damm science stuff again ) to consider placement changes...just download a Vandy manual for free and get out your tape measure... |
11 band analog EQ tunable for the listening sweet spot :-) an additional subwoofer if needed for ego or rooms with small hands push pull aluminum cone driver decent plots over time pistonic motion verified with a special laser system so that we know what the cone is really doing...knowing is the key to the scientific method disc or download 11 band signals, SPL meter to set EQ power factor corrected monoblock sub amp built into box stealth enclosure with autoclave bonded low resonant cabinet adjustable Q owner answers the phone, calls me during fishing season to make sure I am still alive... same basic technology available in the line for < $ 15 K i am happy |
I went through this bass problem and solution this year. I did investigate some. The DBA double-bass array did seem to solve a lot of the problems, but I just could not implement that many drivers in my room. Based on my experiences, there are actually a couple things that are required for good deep bass: - Power supply in source/preamp (and even amp) components. - Acoustics / standing waves problems. The power supply capability in source/DAC will absolutely contribute to deep/tight/strong bass. The dac/preamp may sound good, but unless it has a massively sized power supply, it will just not be able to push those very large waveforms. I have seen discrete Class A preamps that the manufacturer has just tossed a couple 3200uf caps in and called it a day. A good example is Krell KAV-280p and Bryston BDA-2. Both have undersized power supplies, in my opinion. You really need something like 20,000uf for Class A circuits. The Oppo BDP-105 has a decent power supply (2 x 6800uf), but remember it is using conventional op amps (not Class A). This is not the whole story however. Avoid gold-plated or silver-plated components if you want deep/tight/strong bass. This is where rhodium plated elements can be your friend (power cords, interconnects, even fuses when applied conservatively and properly). The other problem is, of course, problems with standing waves in small rooms. I went through a bass tuning exercise this year and I actually now have 14 (counted them) 2’ x 4’ bass panels. Six Owens 2" 703FRK, four 2" Roxul Rockboard 80, two GIK Monster Bass Traps with Flexrange Limiter, and two limp-mass bass panels tuned to 63 hz. All are covered with Guilford fabric except for the limp mass. I plan to add two more limp-bass bass panels tuned to 50Hz. The bass is significantly (night and day) deeper and stronger that it was before at my listening position. I also no longer feel like my ears are compressed in a vacuum (due to over pressure at some frequencies). It is a enormously better situation. I made all bass panels myself except for the GIK. I think I spent less than $1200 total. Acoustics is very important here. However, if the deep/tight bass is not there from the source/preamp, you are not going to get it by adding bass treatments. I will say that the GIK monster bass trap with the FlexRange limiter is an exceptional product if you are looking for a broad-band bass trap. The limiter panel increases bass absorption without sucking the life out of the mid/high frequencies. Positioning is important as this may work better in some areas. |
@erik_squires I haven’t read the articles in your initial post as you state "every audiophile who is dissatisfied with the bass in their room should read these free resources’ and I am not dissatisfied. Give a serious listen to a pair of Golden Ear Triton Reference and I think you would conclude that good, deep bass is *not* so difficult. |
Did a little searching on data-Bass.com At least on paper, the rotary woofers don't seem to do all that great compared to far less expensive solutions. Seem to be just as output and distortion limited as their coned counterparts, or at least close enough to make the $12k price tag questionable. Best, E |
I have seen a couple of takes on the fan as a woofer idea. Just FYI, as Dr. Leach was fond of saying, 0 Hz isn’t a sound, it is wind. Another was kind of a corkscrew in a tube. Seems to be long disontinued, the Phoenix Gold Cyclone by BNIB. Another way to use a rotating motor is converting the rotation to linear travel with a flapper, like the Devialet. Neither method really resolves room mode issues and trades motor strength for effective surface area. As a signal drops an octave, displacement must increase by a factor of 10 for any given driver, so 1mm at 40 Hz becomes 10mm at 20 Hz, and so on. Fans, assuming they can spin fast enough, eliminate the excursion issue. No idea about distortion figures. I can say that with a Hsu VTF 15 I can get monstrous output in room at 16 Hz, so not really a problem I need to solve. |
@kost_amojan. Well it should be easy for you to show me a link to a Stereophile or other measurement plot of a JM Labs high end speaker that does not have a bass boost, bass bump or hump? You should be looking for a flat response that gently rolls off in the bass with no increase in response below 120 Hz at all. I feel sure you can find this as you are extremely confident. |
http://www.eminent-tech.com/main.html Click on TRW-17 pic. Looks like a fan. Then "output comparison". Dave |
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ULF Bass is the most difficult to reproduce accurately. 99% of what is available is reflex extended resonant bass - B&W, Wilson, JM Labs and all the major audiophile brands do it. Most boutique brands do it too. You can easily identify this by the hump in the bass on a frequency plot and the one note bass sound of 99% of speakers. Clean bass needs a Q of 0.7 or less and two 15 inch woofers in most domestic settings. (4 x 12" woofers will be equivalently capable.) I rarely see this kind of setup on Audiogon so I don’t think many people are even aware of the issues raised by Erik. Sticking a good subwoofer with 99% of these reflex extended speakers is just not going to be able to correct the one note resonance. Hardly anyone builds speakers without the characteristic one note bass resonance as a low Q box sounds anemic in bass especially at low volumes and is therefire unlikely to sell in shop floor demos against competitors. |
Let me state unequivocally, deep bass is difficult for the average consumer. Most audiophiles are better off with bass limited speakers, or satellite/subwoofer systems. The former limits the danger you can get into. The latter has the most chance of success IF PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED.I couldn’t agree more. I made that mistake, of going for a big speaker as my first foray into this madness and it simply overloaded my room. The speakers were Legacy Classics. Having gone through several other speakers I’ve found the goldilocks speaker for my room: a monitor. I have no need for a sub as I get very tangible bass down to the mid 30s with the low 30s and upper 20s reasonably represented. It’s tight, tuneful and full of tone, and very well delineated. The only downside is that they’re rear ported so there’s that secondary piling on at certain frequencies but it’s easily tolerable and maybe I’ll look into something else to quell it but it’s not a deal breaker, in the least. Others don’t notice it until I point it out. All the best, Nonoise |
Erik, I agree that deep bass can be problematic. In my situation, in my large room (16.5' X 34', which includes the kitchen/dining room, w/cathedral ceilings in main living room area). I'm using two subs, a 15" passive Tannoy and 12" Velodyne that I converted into a ported sub with a plate amp and two 3" ports, and Eminence driver (can't remember the model). I guess you could say I avoided much of the room induced bass problems by using subs that don't go down that deep, not much lower than 30Hz, if that. The two subs are situated katty-corner from each other, the 15" Tannoy next to the L/H Tannoy HPD, the Eminence 14' away. Due to mostly dumb luck and patience, I was able to integrate these subs into my mostly-music oriented system without exciting any nasty room nodes. My room was very bass-friendly to my 12" Tannoys before the addition of the subs, with the subs, the bass response is nearly perfect to my ears. I do have a modest HT system included in the system, and it sounds great in that mode, but what I've done was all about the music. I hate boomy bass! There are no room treatments of any kind, nor do I feel the need for them. I consider myself very fortunate indeed. Best regards, Dan |
The issue with deep bass is that it requires sacrifice to implement. Remove every sacrifice, and you are left with two choices:
And while audiophiles are accustomed to sacrificing in some ways, the ways of deep bass require sacrifices a lot are unable or unwilling to make. For instance, adding an EQ. Well, you just spend $80,000 on a new dCS DAC stack, you are going to be really unwilling to put a new ADC/DSP/DAC in your chain. This is one good reason for using a sub, so the EQ stays out of the chain of your main speakers. Bass traps are another sacrifice. It’s not just money, GIK’s Soffit Traps are quite affordable, it is also floor space and WAF. I know of some audipohiles who refuse to do any room tuning at all, but will spend thousands on cables. UGH. Talk about badly balanced priorities! Then of course there is the amount of time it takes to learn and appreciate the integration a sub requires. It must integrate to the room and the speakers. In addition to finding the best location you are playing speaker designer when you do this, so a background in crossover design is a big help in configuring the EQ and crossover settings. This is a lot of work to develop a skill you will need once. Alternatives are subs with really good auto-EQ, like JL Audio. Overall too expensive, but really good auto-EQ. When shopping for a subwoofer the most important aspect is the quality of the auto-EQ features. Advice from owners is a big help here, as is an in-store demonstration. HT receivers have this feature as well, with wildly different results. For all these reasons, I think, an audiophile is right to be trepidatious and maybe even avoid really deep bass. The smaller speaker isn’t faster, it is easier to live with and less likely to bait the dragons that lie in the last 2 octaves. From an overall balance, a limited bass speaker is usually much more room friendly, and therefore, more satisfying to live with. |
Erik, +1 on this statement. "The idea that large drivers/subs are slow is a complete and utter myth. Same for bass reflex. The issue is not the speed of the drivers. The issue is usually that the deeper a speaker goes the more it excites room modes, which the audiophile is then loathe to address." Kenny. |
