live music is my ultimate reference. But of course there is a continuum of quality and scale even with live sound. Live music consists of players venues and listeners just like home audio. All good sound have two things in common low noise and distortion. Other than that anything is possible. One either enjoys or not. The most useful metric for how good something sounds to an audiophile is probably hours listened. If one spends a lot of time listening and even goes out of ones way to and comes away satisfied. That is all one can hope for. Then there is always to what extreme one chooses or feels compelled to go in order to be satisfied. No right or wrong there. The best never comes easy. |
Phd,
Just to be clear, I'm as far from a PhD as can be. I also make frequent spelling and grammatical errors. I think that I am overly sensitive to the frequent misuse of "there" and "their".
If you take notice, many posters use the two words incorrectly every day, most commonly using "there" when they mean "their". It's surprising how often it happens, even in printed reviews!
It's equally surprising that the error is most often made by posters whose first language is obviously English. |
Roxy54, it is perfectly fine to notice writing errors as I have in the past with other members. In addition it is difficult to be taken seriously under these circumstances but I think sometimes we get careless. If anyone should have a PHD, that person should be yourself, great minds do think alike. |
I recall a letter to Stereophile, way back when they were a small paperback book format. A reader claimed he owned some 24,000 records! And according to him, this made him the ultimate audiophile, and anyone with less than 10,000 albums should not be allowed to voice an opinion. They printed his letter, with no rebuttals. I was flabbergasted! That anyone could have such a snobbish attitude about stereo! I did the math, and it would be impossible for him to listen to even half of his records in his whole life. If he played 10 albums a night, every night without fail, and never played the same one twice, it would take nearly 7 years! While my measly collection consisted of around 500 at that time, I thought to myself, if you owned but one album that you truly enjoyed, that moved your soul, then you had a right to own a nice system to hear it on! Now maybe one album is an exaggeration, but you get my point. My collection swelled to nearly a thousand, at one time, but I took all the ones that I didn't like and sold them, spent the money on more gear! Perhaps that makes me a gear head? Talking about the different kinds of Audiophiles, I do think there are ones who are more about their collection, and others who are more about the gear, even though they do go hand in hand.
I do like some classical, a little jazz, but am a rock fan most of all, and have been to hundreds of rock concerts. And believe me, no one wants to reproduce a rock concert! Very few that I would ever say sounded good. But! When I am critically listening to my music I am hearing the studio venue, and a good recording from a good engineer can take me to that place. That I feel like I was in that room where the music was recorded, in the studio with those musicians. And being a musician, I know what that sounds like. And perhaps therein lies the difference between regular people and audiophiles? Do normal people analyze music? Do they critically listen for those minute details?
Especially when young people are in the room, I will ask them, "Do you know what instrument that is?", "What instrument is making that sound?", and I am often amazed that they have no idea! They aren't even listening. They are singing along to the words, but are paying no attention to the actual music at all. And I also see that is an issue with modern pop music, it's all about the style and personality of the singer, and their accompaniment is a Casio keyboard. If Audiophilia is on the decline, perhaps it's partially due to the fact that modern music does not benefit from a good system? Perhaps if youngsters were exposed to better music then it would increase their interest in better reproduction? When I say youngster, I'm referring to those under 30, younger than me, let's say. |
Alpha_gt, thanks for sharing, I found your post both interesting and refreshing. |
e more music you listen to the more you need a good hifi. It's that simple. |
That's very true Mapman, very true indeed. I just don't see why one should preclude the other. In other words, I may actually listen to more hours of music with my humble collection than he who owns more records than he could ever listen to. I have noticed that my frequent listening stack of records, about 20 to 30 albums I keep to the front, hasn't changed all that much. While half of them my be newer albums, or old gems I am revisiting, the other half are old favorites that I find myself reaching for again and again. A true classic never gets old.
And thanks Phd, I wish I could have been a reviewer! |
What does good sound look like? People can see the difference between a supercar and a regular car. High end audio can be difficult to define as it is largely opinion based (IMHO) so how does someone know what to buy? It is not an easy task. As people have said here, just throwing money at the problem is no guarantee of success. It is not a project suited for today's microwave mentality.
As for not living without music, I enjoy reproduced sound like every one here. But has there ever been a time in history other than now when reproduced sound existed? What did people do before the last century to satisfy their craving for music? |
Well back in the 19th century many folks in this country purchased pianos which was a BIG purchase and it was more about enjoying music by actually playing it. Of course there were always live performances as well. The "piano in the home" trend continued well into the 20th century peaking in the first decade until sales gradually diminished with the introduction of reproduced music, the phonograph and later radio. |
The Hi-Fi "generations" (those music lovers who desire/d and are/were willing to pay for good sound, born no later than, say, the 1960's) were looking to get their recordings to sound as much like live music as possible. Music lovers born after that grew up hearing only non-acoustical live music, so Hi-Fi music reproduction doesn't have as much meaning or value to them. Something like that, anyway.
But even my contemporaries (we're in our 60's), both musicians and civilians ;-), don't seem to be able to sit still long enough to just listen to music. People will sit and watch a movie, but not just sit and listen to music---they get restless, fidgety even. They need to be doing something while music is playing, not give it their focused attention. The quality of currently made music could have something to do with it! |
Cdc, you're correct, unfortunately there is no user manual when it comes down to buying audio gear and or trying to assemble a good sounding system. But if you have been in the hobby long enough you just know when you have reached that point of perfection. You might say that's it! that's the sound I've been looking for. I have reached this point on several occasions with different components only to screw it up later because I couldn't leave well enough alone. I think I'm more disciplined now. |
This last bunch of July posts are wonderful, love the comments by Alpha_gt and those in response to his thoughts.
Also agree about the Piano, the large LP collection and Hi-Fi generation. Its nice to reflect on these ideas without regard to specific equipment brands. |
If marketed better your "rich friends" would be all about high end audio. |
Easy answer, have you read the cable threads lately? |
Per Albert's July entry, I went back and read the "July" posts, and I must say, I think some folks are 'overthinking' this subject!
When folks in our Western (or Western-ized) culture have discretionary time-and-money (not already reserved for other things -- including savings and/or philanthropy) they usually spend it on some kind of EXPERIENCE which they find STIMULATING.
"Stimulation" is for humans what sunlight is for plants: it leads to experience(s) that make us grow. And as we all know, living things will grow (and CHANGE!) -- because things that don't grow and change are usually dead!
The reason I became enthralled with high fidelity audio reproduction (about 60 years ago,) was because I was just blown away (stimulated!) by the experience of hearing a (seemingly) live performance without any performers! I realized how the wealthy and privileged (before technology) lived when they alone could have music or other live entertainment literally "on demand"!
I realized that with the "right" equipment, I could have the entire world of performance right there in my home. I was totally consumed by that particular form of stimulation; and the amazing personal growth it provided me, almost as an afterthought!
The thing is, when I tried to share my enthusiasm with others (after the smoke-filled 60's that is!) I was not finding many kindred spirits. And I too wondered "Why Don't more People Love Audio?" When I "forced the question" on certain friends, artists and others whose perception I trusted, I was basically told that although they were charmed and excited by MY enthusiasm, that they didn't find it STIMULATING enough to THEM, and would never put that much time/money/effort into creating an audio system like mine -- although they were VERY grateful for being able to bring a record or CD over to my house to listen to on my system from time to time!!
And I think if you will take a minute and reflect on your closest, most interesting or exciting friends who DON'T have even a modest playback system -- maybe a Bose? -- you will probably realize (if they REALLY are interesting and exciting!) that they are crazy/passionate about something else that they find endlessly stimulating! Maybe something you never even noticed, because you were trying so desperately to get them interested in your audio system!
Yes, music is a "universal language." But high fidelity music REPRODUCTION is NOT a universal language, and only a small percentage of the population finds it particularly stimulating -- which is why more people don't love audio ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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Insight from a retired Musician/Teacher/Audio restorer? Most people (over the age of 40 or so now, more than ever) have never been TAUGHT to listen critically. Don't believe me? Here's a non "My Brand's awesome and yours is pathetic" analogy: Old analog lines were hum prone, and (depending on moisture and changing ground potential issues/atmospheric conditions) could have static or some low level buzz. But you heard EVERY WORD in spite of it. (Similar cases have been made about vinyl surface noise or tape hiss as well.) Now think about the massively "detail" destroying compression algorithms and noise gates on Cell Phones. (I won't even go into texting......it turns out we've gone backwards there as well.....) I get the first and last words of sentences obliterated (both directions) constantly. We've been trained to NOT listen. We've been conditioned to accept what we're given, and we think it's AWESOME. (It ain't. Drop all the games and tomfoolery and give me a frikkin' phone that doesn't sound like a party line from the Pleiades, please.) Off soapbox. If I sound old, I am. But I remember seeing Soylent Green when I was about thirteen. I ain't going that quietly, lol....
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In Music programs (Public, Private, Parochial, it doesn't really matter, but if you're interested, the Parochial fared the best, and I take no pleasure in saying it, because those gigs are the ones that pay the most execrably) kids can't be bothered with learning how to listen (both to themselves and to the group) critically anymore. I have a small number who TRY and who GET IT. They get annoyed by the "too bored to care" crowd and retention levels drop. I tried to pitch towards the one's who "got it" but the other environmental "chaos generators" made it increasingly impossible. Anything past that gets seriously OT. But things (with respect to High Fidelity) are like they are for a reason. Frederick Fennell taught two or three generations of Youth what was what. And now, very few (if any) have any idea who he was or why they should care. The guy whom Reagan quoted about gamers being the fighter pilots of tomorrow came out and said "oops, I was wrong". It's contained in a Frontline series (regarding Education) and that subsection was called "Distracted By Everything". Multitasking is a post modern myth. One is great, two is doable and more than that are varying levels of "unremarkable". Studying (reading/performing/interpreting) Music is one of the VERY few things that swings that needle back in the direction we'd all like to see it go. (Kinesthetic learning is one area of research that bears this out....) Off soapbox. Sorry..... |
Wow, this is a great thread and an astonishing read.
Everything in here is factual. To add my pennies worth 18 years after the inception of this thread I may be a little late in the game. FWIW here are my experiences. I started my audiophile journey in my early 20s with the best I could afford. Akai, Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Adcom, B&K, Krell, and culminating with Lexicon. Along with the electronics speaker upgrades were a natural companion such as RS, Fisher, Boss 901, Polk etc finishing with B&W. My early stereo days lost their way and ended up in HT. I was satisfied. I remember distinctly before HT going to friends and LISTENING to albums and enjoying it. After HT, we were all tuned in, it was a concert feast at concert levels. Social interaction declined to just kicking back together since any kind of comment could not be heard. It was fun but missing something. As I was the oldest I retired and had more time to just relax and listen. And I did just that. And as I did just that on my satisfactory HT I exponentially felt that what I thought was great sounding was no longer satisfying. HT was missing someting. Never having experienced the Tube sound I saved and purchased a integrated tube. Wow what a incredible ear opener that was. I again LISTEN to the music. With time on my hands I sit alone, just me and my system and I hear and feel all the nuance, inflection and mood of the artist (s), instruments and band interaction. I regained my audiophile concience lost to HT. My friends come over and proclaim the tube sound superior but soon are tired of just LISTENING and up come the concert DVD with all the sensory input and volume levels at the expense of audio quality and it’s purity. HT on the best equipment made cannot equal the joy of musical reproduction in a properly set up HE stereo system and environment. Visits for just LISTENING as before HT are non existent. Such is the lot of the audiophile. Alone with the music......... and it’s all good.
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Maybe because most people don't want / use the classic stereo setup for music anymore?
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