I suspect that there is more innovation in A/V gear because there is more demand thus more competition for the consumer dollar. Hi-End doesn't innovate because there isn't enough wide band interest. It seems many of the large hi-end firms have taken the marketing approach over real innovation. My take is audiophiles are as prone to marketing hoopla as the rest of the populace, I don't see much difference other than our interest is music and the A/V crowd is racous, bonerattling sensory meltdown. Remember that Opera was originally played to the masses 400 years ago. Times change, tastes change and the fringes left behind are always lamenting for the good ole days. Problem today is things are changing soooo fast that it is hard to imagine what the fallout will be. That is the scary part to me. Life in the chaos lane.
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Wehamilton, interesting post and your analysis of our popular culture is spot-on. But to varying degrees, hasn't the popular culture of any era been mired in the banal? Is ours at the extreme in this regard, and if so, by what margin?
I can agree with the persepective that if tastes in our culture were more refined and discerning, then there would logically be a greater number of people interested in "audio as art." Remember, however, that the demand side is only part of the equation, and many would argue that it has a lesser influence than supply side effects. So in fairness, let's consider the supply side of this situation.
I have argued here, and in other threads, that the rate of significant innovation in high-end audio/music reproduction has been so glacially slow that relative to other consumer goods, high-end audio now offers extremely poor value for the consumer dollar. Relatively speaking, there has been significantly more innovation in the A/V, home-theater oriented segment of the market and this is where consumers have flocked with the dollars that they are willing to expend for this type of product. From a value-added perspective, their behavior is only "rational," whatever that means.
Understand that their choice doesn't reflect my values and I'm not arguing this from a HT enthusiast's point of view, I don't even have one and I too think that they're silly. But why is it so easy to demonize individual consumers, yet not look critically at the behavior of the firms that make up the high-end audio industry? |
Wehamilton, your reference to people not wanting reality and Detlof's reference to Europe reminded me of a worrying issue IMHO: young people NOT even KNOWING what reality looks, sounds, or tastes like. In my six year-old daughter's class (in Europe) the kids were asked to draw the "little animal" they had for lunch (lunch was fish- sticks). Many drew fish-sticks with paws, some drew vegs, some a chicken... ofcourse some also drew a fish. Rest assured, this is just a piece of trivia, not the announcement of impending doom. But, as natural "reality" becomes more & more "bland", requiring more & more artificial enhancement, strange things can happen! Nevertheless, as Detlof intimates, there must be two sides to everything! |
Wow Wehamilton, excellent! I wished, I would have been able to write that post. We are a bit behind here in continental Europe, but its coming fast and some high end stores are beginning to fold, others begin to diversify into HT. So your sociological analysis holds true also for us. We are not quite so far yet and analog\vinyl still thrives amongst the cognoscienti and in my generation, specialist stores, with above average vinyl setup service can still make a fairly good living. Unfortunatedly we are not so far as yet, where excellent high end stuff is thrown on the used market, because people want the raucus of HT. But it will come and be a feast for us, the old guard, like it was in those days, when digital started off in the market and people were getting rid of their LP's. Gosh what a feast that was!
So there are two sides to everything! |
Home theatre better matches the "zeitgeist" of the times than high end audio. Previous posters have hit on a lot of the factors defining the current situation, let me put it a different way. For a number of years, going back at least to the mid-90's, society has been in a highly experiential phase. It has even been called the "Experience Economy" in business circles.
With this mindset, everything has to be "extreme" to even get noticed. Realtiy isn't good enough, it needs to be pumped up. From sports to movies to recreational activities it has to be more exagerated, more impactful and more staged than ever before just to get to leave an impression. You can't watch TV w/o loud intrusive sound effects inserted for no reason (You Are the Weakest Link or the NFL on Fox for example). Exagerated visual effects in movies have replaced plot lines and artistic cinematography. Even martial arts films (the original extreme genre) has had trouble being extreme enough. Now you have to fly as you beat the crap out of your opponent, or lacking flight capabilities, just add more blood. Best Picture, Gladiator & Titanic, you see where I'm going with this.
In the music world, you can't have a rock band with just four or five musicians anymore- now they need to be fronted by 8 choreographed dancers putting on a stage show that sometimes also claim to be the "singers." These muscial "acts" have replaced bands. In this environment, nobody even notices Jerry Springer anymore. You could call it the WWF'ing of America. Looked at cynically, you could say it's technology playing to the lowest common denominator across a wide range of activities. Another view might be we've been on a bit of a technology bender with lower prices bringing these gooodies into the realm of the average man.
In this period of exageration the home theatre "experience" with it's countless channels and audio processing and manipulation is giving people more of what they want. They don't want reality- the holy grail that has been fueling the audiophile quest for the last 40 years, they want to be dazzled with an enhanced, or pumped up version of reality. And they can be dazzled for a farily small amount of money (for those that aren't too discerning) or they can invest $50K in a home theatre for those that need to brag "mine is bigger than yours."
What is missing from all this is the appreciation ofthe art of music and the purity of it's reproduction that we audiophiles value. While critically listening to music is certainly experiential, it seems an almost quaint activity in a world that wants to be blown away by sensory overload.
No my friends, we are not living in a era that values or even understands subtlety or nuance of the type that makes art and it's reproduction an audiophile's passion. And until the pendulum starts swinging back the other way, don't be surprised if the totally awesome, extreme and radical audio video experience keeps the purist relegated to second class status.
Dude, did you hear that someone's comin' out with a 20 foot big screen with 10 channel make you puke and your ears bleed fully surround sound gut rumbling digisynthesizerprocessor? Awesome...... |
Kthomas, following on yr thread, audio is not (yet) a lifestyle option. HT sometimes is, and people get together to enjoy an evening before the screen. How many times do people invite others to an evening of music -- as an accepted, discussed and "conventionalised" past-time. By way of comparison, people purchase Ferraris; some owners cannot, or are not allowed to drive these autos to optimum speeds. But they still buy them. IMHO, that's a market. Audio is, at best, a cottage niche.
Unfortunately, this also means that gear is expensive (i.e., manufacturers' purchasing power???); can U imagine prices for large-scale production hi end gear manufactured by the likes of Siemens... No offence to Cos but, how can our "biggies" (say, Krell even Linn, a $~20 mil. company) compete with that: we have to pay for the R&D.
Regards |
I don't think the emphasis is so much on people being lazy or ignorant as it is on people not "caring" about better sound - it's (inexplicably to some of us) unimportant to them. This isn't the result of rapidly increasing laziness on the part of the population but, IMO, the combination of a rapidly increasing amount of stimuli in the world (which certainly has occurred over the past few decades) coupled with technological advancements that do put pretty good sound at such an affordable level that many don't think twice about ever spending more, and the stuff rarely breaks. Trying to advance the sound quality of a system takes both time and money (basically synonymous for any adult), and there's only so much to go around and, as stated earlier, rapidly increasing amounts of things vying for both time and money. Depending on how one defines "high-end", it's somewhere between difficult and impossible to get most people to even fathom the concepts as important, much less act on them. Of all the people I know, there is only one who doesn't scratch their head if you talk about spending more than a few hundred bucks on any component. If somebody asked me for advice in purchasing a system, I'd be doing well to get them to appreciate what you can get for, say, $2K and, if they bought it, they'd probably think they'd blown their lifetime wad for equipment and, since it would never break, they'd never look to improve it. It would also sound markedly better than anything they'd ever owned before, better than anything they ever hear at a friends house, and there'll be a million other things banging at their door for their money and time. I don't know how many people have to be "converted" to restore the high-end to "healthy", but I don't see it happening with what appears to currently be defined as high-end. |
Although basically I would agree with you, that since the beginning of the eighties, the advances in the high end have mainly been prices and advertising skill, I would say that in dissolving such finer points as the various rythms inherent in the musical web and the widening of the dynamic scale, especially down in the ppp region have been considerable. Also the ability of creating a reasonable facsimile of the soundspace has improved . Especially the ability to better recreate the intricacies of the rythm element is an important factor to make a system seem more musical and closer to the truth. This ability has also begun to seep through to mid priced gear. So, though your point is partially valid, in defecting you are missing quite a bit in my opinion.
It will still take quite a time, if at all, until we turn out the light. I guess, you have gone to bed a bit too early. (-:, Regards, |
Much of the above thread emphasizes a people are lazy-stupid-inbred-indifferent line of reasoning. While convenient to make, this argument is really a cop-out and probably misses the underlying causes for the growing lack of interest in high-end audio.
Consider that the number of consumers purchasing high-end gear has consistently declined, and by marked amounts, since the mid-90's. Are we to believe that there has been a dramatic acceleration in laziness, stupidity, indifference, and inbreeding in so short a span of time? If not, then something else must account for the rejection of the high-end by so many people. I can only give my experience and would not be so bold as to proffer that it is typical of everyone or even most.
My first brush with the high-end came in 1979 when I heard a reference rig consisting of KEF 105's, Crown reference amplification, and a Linn analog front end. The experience was magical, but the $8K-$10K price tag was well beyond my means at the time. I settled a few years later for Hafler amplification, an ADCOM pre, Maggies, and an early generation CD player.
Recently, I decided to completely replace the entire system and was delighted that I now had sufficient means to purchase a high-end setup. After extensive research and many trips to area audio salons, I am disappointed to say the least. First, the sound of the modern reference rigs is not fundamentally better than what I heard in 1979, period! But the price tag is now in the $100K+ range. Moreover, if anything has changed, it is not a marked improvement in the quality of the high-end, but rather the narrowing of the gap between the mid-fi/near-high-end and the "true high-end."
So you tell me, when I can buy a very respectable 2-channel rig for $6K or so, buy an Audi S8, spend two weeks cruising the Greek isles, and purchase $20K worth of art --- OR buy a $100K stereo system, which should I do? This is really a no-brainer.
Simply put, the high-end audio industry has failed miserably in innovating and developing new products that are substantially better in any significant sense. The value per dollar quotient has never looked poorer, and people are not so stupid that they are unaware of this.
Count me as another defector.
P.S. Would the last one out please remember to turn out the lights? |
For @ least the following reasons:
1. Very few people know how to listen to music.
2. Very few people will take the time to listen.
3. Very few people discuss music just as music.
4. There's little status in it.
5. Music has been, for the most part, reduced to furniture status and taken for granted. |
Wehamilton, thanks for the Miles Davis dedication. His "Kind of Blue" album is one of my favs! |
Wehamilton, I was (self)diagnosed, but that did not help either. My system is more or less right now, but my ears are failing. So there you are...but I am still at it of course, thinking of tweaking hearing aids and how to find the sweat spot in my ears for them. Regards, |
Limabean, my hat's off to you and your shipmates. Installing an audiophile system onboard a nuke is a 5.0 degree of difficulty- talk about tricky room acoustics! Hell, my hat's off to you guys everyday, anyway just for being there. At least now you have some good tunes to help with the tedium. I'm listening to Miles Davis right now and dedicating it to you and your shipmates. Hey, do you think the Russian submariners can hear your system too? They're probably happy to have some decent music for a change!
Detlof, from senior year in high school to senior year in college I had four completely different stereo systems even though I was a dirt poor student. That should have been a sign to my parents or someone, but it went undiagnosed (psychology wasn't as advanced back then). As a result I continue to suffer with no hope for a cure! Glad to know there are fellow travelers at least. Just think by the time we finally get our systems right our hearing will be shot. I sure hope the old folks home doesn't have a Bose system! Best regards to all. |
A splendid analysis, Wehamilton. How come you know me so well?!! |
We share the "perfectionist" mindset and aren't ever going to be satisfied, that's why this is an equipment driven hobby. It also implies that we aren't afraid of equipment/technology, that we can hear and appreciate the differences in recordings, performances, and equipment and that finally, we place a high enough priority on the above to spend a fair amount of our income pursuing that perfection.
Add in the love for music and that makes us a very small subset of the population. In another thread I said that I'm a tortured soul (aka audiophile) because of the above items. But most people don't even think twice about them, that's what makes us different. Don't believe me? Just tell one of your civilian friends that you spend $1700 on an interconnect or $8,000 on an amp and watch their reaction . It's not that we have more money either, it's just that it's important enough for us to spend what money we have on the unobtainable pursuit of perfection (we chase the audiophile holy grail). Most people will always settle for mediocre, some will only be happy with a little extra, and still fewer will be "tortured souls," also known as audiophiles. |
The question should be Why Do WE Love Audio? It's clear that everyone here has a passion for music, and takes no shortcuts when it comes to musical reproduction. If we allow others to see this passion, and we take the time to educate others, our hobby will grow. To the untrained ear a $200 system sounds as good as a $2000 system. When I first walked into a HiFi retailer, it was very intimidating. All the different components, high prices, and a salesman trying to explain DAC's, transports, and pre-amps, etc.. It took some effort on my part to do my homework and to go and listen to find my own definition of perfect sound. In todays fast paced world, few have the time. I am 22 years old, and a submariner in the navy. By displaying my love for high quality sound at work, I was able to raise an interest with several of my shipmates. We now have a seven speaker NHT home theater on our mess decks. Which now our whole crew enjoys. Since I work in a very stressful environment, nothing relieves that stress better than sitting in front of my system and truely enjoying a CD. I love Audio and am always up for talking about it and helping others learn more about it. Long live the AUDIOPHILE!!! |
Thanks Doug, you make me feel all nostalgic. The last time I sat on a bike was deep in the last century. It was a Brits Triumph, 200cc, I think. SIGH. |
i shop at autogon, where else? ;~) the buell is my one concession to non-italian transportation (except for my craftsman garden-tractor, which i'd love to upgrade to a fiat/allis!). it's an american-made sport-bike w/a harley engine, but tuned to deliver 90hp/90ft-lbs torque at the rear wheel - not bad for a 450-lb machine... ;~) regards, doug s. |
WOW and for the same price as a gnu beemer ? Where do you shop and duh, what's a buell? (sounds Scandinavian, Viking sort of...)Forgive ye olde ignorance... |
hey detlof, if yure a cheepskate w/cars, (like i also am w/stereo!), ya can *still* have some fun! ;~) that's why there currently resides chez-sedon 3 alfas, a pantera, a buell & a ducati - all for about the same price as *one* gnu 5-series bmw... :>) regards, doug |
Thanks, Doug, you got the weak part of my argument...and I would be a motorhead, if I could only afford it. Regards |
detlof, while i enjoy reading your posts, & for the most part agree w/ewe, by yer analogy to cars, i can tell ewe *aren't* also a motorhead. :>) even tho cars' performance stats *can* be measured, like audio, some do *some* things better, while others excel in *other* things. and the "cognoscienti" most certainly do *not* agree! ;~) while i am nowhere *near* financially able to own any car i wish, the porsche, while a fantastic automobile, *might* be in my stable - if i could afford the at least 10 other *must-haves* 1st... ;~) regards, doug *no radio while i drive* sedon |
Tucker, I don't know if that would answer your question, but I'm thinking that if I were very, very rich, I would exactly know which Porsche to buy in order to enjoy "the best" in terms of acceleration, handling, etc., or which mansion to build and where and probably most of the cognoscienti would agree with me. Generally in these things we can establish a clear set of references. Audio on the contrary seems elusive. Nobody really has a fixed set of reference. Nobody can truly tell us ( thank the audiogods) what is "best". Cars can be compared by measuring performance, time pieces by their exactitude, rarity,workmanship, but nobody can measure how close our systems may come to the real thing, to a live musical event. So audio is more of a quest, an experimenting, a searching, a road full of doubts, of ups and downs and possibly often also quite a lonely thing. The lucky fellow with the oil wells, reading TAS and spending the 350.000 on a system described there as SOTA and showing it off as "as the best", without comparing it to a life concert and hence starting a quest of his own, I would not describe as an audiophile. So to be a true and dedicated audiophile is impractical, expensive, trying. The enjoyment of a new level of performance in your system is often enough followed by bouts of selfdoubt, the critical remark of a peer might throw you into the deepest of depressions, a new ampflifying star on the horizon will fill you both with greed and a new yearning for sonic nirvana. You are rarely at peace, neither with yourself nor with your system. Now who needs that? Nobody in his right mind. Besides if you want to hear music, why not switch on your radio, huh? So you ask why so few people love audio? We are an elite lot, my friend. The salt of the (aural)world. (-; |
Pug99,
And what a hard job it is, educating my Bose-buying friends who don't even give my system a chance. I guess people don't really listen to music anymore, just sound. I guess for those who want sound coming out of their speakers Bose or anything else that makes sound is good enough. It is difficult to get people to understand what real quality stereo sound is. Oh well... |
CW London, do you think this Mr. Whitehead is real? Seems rather like a bit of a wag.....but then perhaps he has a Bose system in his Spitfire and a big B&W system in his B-17. Me, I'm a snob, I'd rather be shot down and crash then listen to that stuff. |
A lot has to do with marketing. Discount stereo stores, top 40 radio stations, and movie theaters all promote the myth that volume equals quality. As audiophiles can tell you, any idiot can make a loud noise, but it is beautiful sound that people will remember. I know just listening to my system has convinced many to ignore the consumer grade junk and seriously listen to what they are buying. The bottom line is, it is up to the people like us who are critical about sound to educate others. |
I think that one of the main problems is that people really don't expect a stereo system to sound realistic. I know people who think that "the stereo effect" - emphasis on the word "effect" means more bass. I beleive that most people want their stereo to sound like some bass - treble heavy stereotype that low quality manufacturers and retailers have imposed on these people. I find it frustrating at times that I cannot find any friends who either understand or care to understand what good audio is about - let alone find someone who already has good audio sensibilities.
As for Bose being good for entertaining, I agree that the only thing they do anywhere close to right is ambient sound in restaurants and public places, but many know about the fatigue - inducing nature of most Bose designs. It seems odd for Bose to have a mix of qualities like that. So really, Bose speakers are good for only one thing - to impress people in A-B demonstrations for short periods of time against similarly low quality speaker designs. I like how people come and brag to me how they witnessed this demonstration where the demonstrator shows a "large tower speaker" playing and then magically removes the false cabinet revealing a Bose cube. It just saddens me that marketing, again triumphs over truth. |
Just today I went to tweeter. A friend of mine works there. They had a Bose 30 lifestyle($3,000) hooked up in the ht room and also some other setups. I asked my friend scott to play them, a little A/B demo. Only cause another friend of mine has the Bose setup, his wife is an assistant manager for the Bose outlet in Kittery, Me. Before I bought my system his wife tried to get me into Bose, but I knew better. Well scott played the Bose in the ht setup, I was surprised "I said to scott" not bad. Scott smiled and switched over to other setup, B&K w/kef speakers. Wow what a difference, the bose was missing everything. Don't know how to explain it but the bose was missing lotssssss of information. No mids what so ever, sloppy, boxy, muddy, slow base. Sorry but bose really suck, baddddd...
Mark I'm sure your taste is very good in other areas, but do yourself a favor and find a different hobby or get some help on your system. |
mark, denon is fine for home-theatre; bose is fine for background music & entertaining. seriously. however, sitting down & listening to music, not doing anything else, but actually *listening*, as if yude gone to a concert or club to hear live music, well, this is something totally different. while denon *does* make some hi-end audio equipment (hoover, on a-gon's classifieds, could surely set ewe up!), i'd hazard a guess that this is *not* what makes up yer home-theatre system. and, while i am not normally so blunt, to put it in your words, ya, h-t denon & bose *are* garbage for serious listening. don't take it personal, serious listening is obviously not what yure into - it's ok, not many people are... the equipment ya got prolly *is* great - for how it's being used. regards, doug ps - i hope ewe get enyoyment outta yer other hobbies, it's a shame to let nice stuff sit & not use it. cars, for example - i don't *collect* italian cars, italian cars are the only ones i own. they *all* get driven - as my commute is 45 miles each way, they get driven a *lot*... :>) |
Mr Whitehead: You seem to have more money than sense. Let me guess -- Investment banking? Rolex Presidential? With diamonds, perhaps? If you weren't so smug and self satisfied, perhaps your education would be broader than rereading financial statements in between back issues of The Robb Report. |
I collect vintage watches, fine cigars, wine, Italian cars, houses, sailboats and WW II airplanes. Each of these hobbies gives me great pleasure and is a conversation starter for people I meet in business and socially. Someone once tried to sell me a very expensive Krell system, but I couldn't really understand how to justify the price and my wife hated it. In the end, I have Denon home theatre equipment built into a custom closet, B&W speakers and Bose cubes in every room for background music and entertaining. You guys seem to think this is garbage but it sounds great to me. |
I find that rather than being a status symbol as in exotic cars...Ferrari's and Lambos which touch in the heart of men as rich sportsmen, i.e. as the machinery we've all dreamed of driving fast, high end audio equipment is scorned by many who can't imagine how we'd drive those amps and speakers fast! I've listened to countless people declare that they can't tell the difference in wines. When I put great wine in their glasses and ask them to taste, everyone can. What I believe they mean is that they are unwilling to pay for what they believe is an outrageous extravagance.
Presumably, music is music is music. Why care how it is produced or how near perfectly it represents the musicians actual work? Once having learned to listen to a true reproduction of sound and having given up the taint of flavor which most audio equipment overlays, I don't find that it is difficult to want more, more, more of it. I just believe that like other non-status opulently expensive devices in life, most people don't have the ability to pay therefore they don't allow themselves the willingness to be touched by the sensuality of the experience. Basically, I believe people recoil from what clearly scares them... the obviousness that if we loved the music, we might not be able to afford the equipment. |
As a long-time audiophile, music lover, and teacher of a class in jazz appreciation, I despair of the musical taste of much of today's younger generation of listeners. At the risk of offending some of you, too many younger adults (read: under 35) have been raised on a steady diet of music that is often mediocre at best. To make matters worse, the quality of the reproduced sound is sometimes execrable, and the popularity of MP3 suggests it is not going to get any better. Top all of this off with the decline in liberal arts education -- specifically music -- in the schools, and you are left with what Steve Allen calls a "dumbed down" American society. When you get used to crap, it shouldn't surprise anyone that high end audio is shrinking as a hobby. |
I have to agree with Jsbail. Alot of people do think Bose makes the best. Hell when I started to build on my system my friends wife who is a assistant manager at the Bose outlet told me to come in and she'd hook me up. But I know the truth about Bose and it doesn't come close to what I have. Also many people are into HT, which I do both, it is expensive but I enjoy it. Many are not willing to spend the money on both or one. |
Maybe (I hope) I am wrong. But here is the idea stripped down to its basics (for classical literature students, at least): High-end reproduction is the modern "song of the sirens." Every audiophile is Odysseus. Good sailing with your DVP-S9000ES... |
I'm not sure I understand your point, but I think I'm in the clear to buy whatever high-end gear I want since I have no talent for composing or performing music myself, so the purchase of an expensive luxury product of this ilk will not undermine any natural talent of mine, nor rob the world of any inherent musical genius. This is quite a relief, actually, as I've been eyeing the new Sony DVP-S9000ES pretty closely....... |
I find this thread and the contributions so far fascinating. If someone where to call the audiophilic preoccupation with music and equipment IMPOVERISHING and NERVE-WRACKING, an average audiophile would probably resist. But I would like to insist that music lovers should be more cautious of high-end audio. The ability to enjoy the faithful reproduction (or is it, making present) of musical creations is anything but ann innocent pleasure, since it can gradually undermine and destroy the talent for being a fundamentally strong and profound musician and composer--that is to say, a musical person´s natural genius. As for myself, whenever I purchase another high-end component, I hear a voice inside myself cry out to me: "you don´t have to buy such an expensive, luxury product any longer; others can do that just as well!" What voice is this? This voice also tells me at times exactly how much or how little this new, intricate, advanced testament of the modern electronics industry is worth. Others can put these components just as well! And many could do it better! And those who could do it best--more talented, richer minds than myself--perhaps would not even be able to compose a worthwhile song for themselves given the amount of time and energy that they have invested in the reproduction of the music of others. Musicians and composers beware! |
Tireguy, great example to further prove the point : "just because ya got money, doesn't mean ya got taste"...
and besides, if EVERYBODY was into this, while it may cost less (demand and all that), I doubt the quality would be there. How much fun would this hobby be if EVERYONE was into it? It's like what most of the locals here tell people about where we live "you don't want to come over here, it's cloudy and foggy all the time"....why? well, we want to keep our little secret to ourselves where we can fully enjoy it.... |
A lot of good coments made here, one of my wealthy friends sold his good stereo(consisting of Martin Logan, Nordost and Audio Research) and bought some 'cheap' stuff(paradigm, sherwood and Radio shack cables). Image is everything to him and all of his friends(except me) like the current system better, go figure. They all think because he has money he knows what to buy(and what sounds better) and he went out in one day and bought everything, with very little if any research, but his system is better because it is his, right? Best wishes and I hope none of you ever fall in to this catagory. |
people are too busy rating themselve on www chat-sites, to have time to listen to music, anymore... ;~) |
Many Men do not want to go to bat with the wife .... Those speakers are so big why can't we have those little Bose speakers ?(don't get me started on that one!)But Seriously Audio like many things in human nature people enjoy simplicity. The Quartz watch almost Drove the Handmade Swiss watch makers into the ground (until the the art of automatic watches became a status symbol ) Any hobby or interest that requires an investment of time and money is too much for many people. I love Hi Fi Audio and have for over 30 years! When I was 12 I had practically memorized the Audio equiptment annual. I went to the CES show when I was 17 ... When I heard a demo of the JM Labs Utopias playing Who Are You I almost cried! Appreciating Fine hi Fi Gear is like admiring fine artwork You either "see" it or you don't. A great aside is that while the Carver & Pioneer Gear (nice stuff for the $) is sought after by the masses , the competition for the used gear at the upper end can sometimes be thin. plus Audiophiles are always looking for the next upgrade. The adventureous shopper can put together a truly amazing used class A system for $ 5,000 -$ 10,000 & up ! Enjoy the road to audio Nirvana it's a great ride! |
I think the price no obstacle systems are good for us all. Its there research and development that gets handed down to lower systes as the years roll by as they find cheaper ways to do things. I think if it wasnt for these companies high end wouldnt be what it is today.
Its easy to look at a product and say it only costs x aount to make it and complain about the price but there is so much more to the cost of business then the amount it takes to build it. Research and development and advertisement are two of the biggest. Nevermind payroll, marketing, machinery, rent, and electricity.
I use to run a small metal fabrication plant and our electric bill was seventy thousand dollars a month! Nevermind machinery which easily got into the millons. Thats just the factory. Then you have all the middle men who sell the product, pay for inventory, rent, employess, and on and on.
The electronics in your systems were the ultra hi fi of the past so remember in ten years you will have some of that awesome state of the art technology of today in your system. |
Jsbail makes a very good point: Even if people know about the high end and even if they like the great sound, for 95% or more of the population convenience trumps quality anytime. People don't want to sit and listen. Heck my wife is so used to my system that she always remarks on how bad other systems are. But I can get her to sit and listen maybe once a month. The rest of the time she's busy, or would rather read or watch tv. And she's always hoping for a high end system that's smaller than a boom box. |
I find most people don't even know high end audio exists. Most people think Bose makes the best speakers. People also don't want to see speakers. I was at a friends house the other day and he has a pair of Snells behind his couch! |
I made a statement that we are doing ourselves a great injustice by supporting companies that have " money is not an obstacle" attitude. The cost of brewing up a true reference system is extraordinary. I'm sorry, but I can't justify spending $50,000.00 on a pair of monoblocks, even if I had 10 million in the bank. When support these companies we are hurting ourselves and the possibility of increasing the numbers of audiophiles. Anyone can learn to appreciate a good system, just ask my wife, but what do you give up in the process of aquiring a good system? I buy used equipment primarily. Champagne tastes, sparkling wine budget. |
Reminds me of a print ad campaign many years ago that asked, " Why do so many people buy Kenwood?" The owner of the Sound Seller in Marinette, WI (You still out there Roger?) posted the ad in his store with his own rhetorical question as a response, "Because they can't hear?" |
Very well said Perfectimage... |
I think the ingrediants that make up an audiophile is more then just the love of music. I think you have to also love the gear, be pasionate, creative, and to be a little on the obsesive side. The love of music is a perfrence but being an audiophile is a hobby. I think that marketing and exposure would be very benificial to the hobby and would make it more of a status symbol. I dont think anyone here buys it for status and if it turned into that it would cheapen it. Then again if it was a status symbol maybe my favorite little hi fi store wouldnt have just gone out of business.
I also think that most people dont have the listening skills. When I hear a laugh track I always here the indivdual people laughing. When I walk into a crowded room I dont hear a group of people I hear a lot of individual conversations. If you listen you can even hear a conversation crystal clear from twenty five feet away in a crowded loud room. They talk louder because of the ambient noise level yet trained ears can "focus" on those particular sounds. Try it.
Someone here once compared fine audio to wine tasting. I think that is an excellent analogy. Being a wine counasour not only takes talent but you need a trained pallet to be good at it. Like most people cant tell a fine wine most people cant tell a great audio system because there ears arent trained well. |
What's the audiophile gold standard? Perfect reproduction of live, unamplified acoustic music. Well, the last time most Americans heard live, unamplified acoustic music it was their high school marching band. With no standard to compare it to, how could a high-end system impress them? People who love music can listen to anything. Being an audiophile means caring about sound reproduction. You can love music too, and most of us do, but it's really a separate passion. |
The reasons are, of course, manyfold with most of them outlined above. I remember in the 1970s I could go to high end audio stores and find all sorts of people, male and female, being turned on to the current good stuff. Not any longer. High end stores service the same customers over and over. However, we all have to face the fact that Americans are, in general, no longer interested in music. Just check out the FM airwaves in just about any major city, almost pure, "wear-dated" crap. What people want is noise with a cool looking boy or girl jumping around in the video. Does everyone realize all pop, rock, etc artists now have to be actors first and foremost? Do you think Britney Spears, N'Sync et al are on your TV constantly because they make good music? Lets all face it, there are no "new" Beatles, Hendrix, Miles, Coltrane, Joni Mitchell; not even a new Shawn Phillips, Tom Rush, or Fairport Convention, for Jeebies sake!! And please don't start telling us about all those "great new bands and singers". 90% of these new recordings are so over processed in the studio and mastering facilities that any sign of life is gone. Anyway, just an aside: One of my wife's students remodeled his house at a cost of $950,000.00. He had, as he puts it, "a state of the art sound sytem" installed in ceilings throughout. The "heart" of the awsome system is a Marantz receiver (retail, as he told me, $795.00) and a comparable CD player. The man doesn't know the brand of bad sounding wall and ceilings speakers installed, his interior designer did everything for him. |
