The equipment in my system (listed below) has not changed but I now find on both CD and Vinyl a high end shrillness to the sound (treble is very harsh) that has become very annoying, especially at high volume levels. I have no idea why this happened all of a sudden.
Endevour E-3 Pass 30.8 Pass XP 20 Esoteric K01x Linn LP12 (Ortofon Black cartridge) Linn Linto Phono Preamp PS Audio P5 (Amp plugged in directly to wall) JL Audio F112 v2 sub OCOS Speaker cable (15 feet) Pass XLR interconnect (Preamp to Amp) Harmonic Technology Cable Magic Link (not current version). RCA termination
These forums are meant to exchange ideas and assist members in the world of audio and not insult those who do not agree with their opinions. These forums are not to be used as their personal message board. That is why there is a private message section. No one wants to hear their bickering and personal agendas that have nothing to do with the original topic. It’s time the moderators enforce the forum guidelines.
Is it possible the P5 is the problem? ... When the OP is using the P5 for the front equipment could the P5, because of some internal problem, be causing the sound problem?
I would think it’s unlikely, Jim, but I suppose it’s a possibility. For example, perhaps the MultiWave circuitry is misbehaving and doing funny things with the AC waveform, even when it is supposedly not being used.
In any event it’s easy enough to find out, as you suggested.
Also, another thing I would suggest that the OP do, if he already hasn’t, is to use the P5’s oscilloscope function to look at its incoming and outgoing AC waveforms. And see if either looks dramatically different than a sine wave.
Proposition: There are less Morphic fields 👻 👻 👻 floating around late at night. And early in the morning. Especially Sunday morning. Morphic fields are frequently misinterpreted as "power grid activity." You should notice excellent sound quality issuing forth from your system during those times, generally speaking. Very weather dependent, too, low pressure systems bad ⛈ , high pressure systems good 🌞. It’s doesn’t take a rocket scientist 🚀 to realize there are a great many variables involved, certainly not (repeat not) only one or two.
OCOS cables are pretty old ( around 1997 or so). If I remember correctly, they were designed with OCOS standard terminators (Red), but when used with dome tweeters or a speaker with a rising impedance curve, they needed to have the HFC (Black - nobel) network installed on the speaker end in place of the Red ones. They also came in VERY specific lengths (9'10"/13'/16'6",etc) which I have to assume was a performance benefit or to correct a design/engineering issue. I would try and borrow some newer speaker cables and hear if that "fixes" the problem. Those OCOS cables might have oxidized over the years and/or the connectors might have issues. I also suspect that the Black HFC needs to be used for the Endeavor speakers.
Tis probably best to think of snake oil as the lubricating liquid that makes the engine go. It also separates the MidFi from the High End, you know, just judging from the responses here. No offense if MidFi is your thing. Everyone has to be somewhere.
To the OP Did you try replacing the speaker cables yet? Anything will do for a cheap dirty test, zip cord, bell wire even regular SO cord ( no you do not have to use all 3 conductors LoL!).
I may have missed this but did this start at the same time as the kitchen refurb grand opening ceremony? If not then even though all the potential kitchen issues may not be helping overall SQ I doubt that it is the cause of this particular gremlin. I am thinking most likely cause (after eliminating speaker cables and checking all interconnect integrity) would be the Pass or the P5 but most likely the Pass. Hoping it is not as yes it is a royal pain and cost to pack up and ship back to Pass for a checkup.
On another note entirely (sic) Why oh why do we feel the need for openly hostile, rude, antagonistic and generally arrogant posts? Oh and then the additional purely inane ones to boot that serve no usefull purpose whatsoever. Everybody is a keyboard warrior nowadays........
Jim (Jea48), in my case there's no particular reason I haven't mentioned the preamp. It's certainly one of many possibilities that can't be ruled out at this point.
The cables seem highly unlikely, based on the info provided for a multitude of reasons. It is sudden, it's on both channels and proacman didn't mention messing with cables at all.
I would agree the cables or the interconnects are unlikely culprits but as it is a very simple and cheap test it should not be ignored.It is possible it really was not sudden, a connection may have been corroding or degrading for a while but then reached a point where it had gone that far as to now present itself as an audible artifact at last.Unlikely true but not impossible and one that should not be ignored in the greater scheme of things.
I also agree, Todd, that the cables are not a particularly likely culprit. However, as Uberwaltz said just above, and as I said earlier, it is easy enough to perform a test that would rule the possibility in or out. And as I also said earlier there are very strong reasons to suspect that the OCOS cables have very high capacitance, and ...
Almarg 11-27-2017 ...a possibility [note that I said "possibility," not "probability"] that occurs to me is that its [the cable’s] capacitance might be causing an ultrasonic oscillation in your [the OP’s] amplifier. And perhaps the condition is sufficiently marginal that minor aging effects or perhaps even a change in AC line voltage have put it over the edge.
If so, the volume dependency you [the OP] mentioned might result from the speakers being stressed to a greater degree when an oscillation and a high volume audio signal are both present.
So to be sure it’s clear, the **possibility** I suggested was not that the cables might be the culprit in themselves, but rather that the effects of their presumably very high capacitance on the amplifier **might** be. And, once again, it’s a possibility that is very easy to check.
Also, a reason that this possibility has been given what Kosst characterizes as "first attention" is that we certainly want to be sure that it has been conclusively ruled out before other findings may lead the OP to incur the trouble, expense, and risk of sending his amp out for a repair that may prove to be unnecessary.
So while Kosst finds himself "befuddled by the persistent recommendations that the least likely culprit, the speaker cables, be given first attention," I find myself befuddled by the objections that have been raised against that attention.
Absolutely, I completely agree. I posted before I had completed my thought..
Cables certainly are possible, but the evidence presented points to the electrical system as a distinct possibility as well. It would at least be worth shutting off the branch circuit at the panel to completely rule effects from the kitchen circuit out. Also, double checking the connections in the panel (after shutting off the power) would be warranted as well. I just wanted to put those other possibilities out there as well, to avoid needlessly shipping an amp around the country.
Kosst also offers a reasonably easy test as well.. lots of good ideas for more data points.
If Kosst reference to DMM means digital multi meter it is possible the op does not have a halfway decent one or even know exactly what he should be testing/looking for. If the latter is the case I do hope he will ask for help right here because that is an extremely valid test as well.
Kosst_Amojan 11-30-2017 It’s free and harmless to connect a DMM to the amp outputs and determine if the bias is off.
Uberwaltz 11-30-2017 If Kosst reference to DMM means digital multi meter it is possible the op does not have a halfway decent one or even know exactly what he should be testing/looking for.
I could use some clarification on that myself, Uberwaltz. I’m not sure how a multimeter measurement at the output terminals of an amp can determine if the bias is too low (or too high), the main possibility Kosst had cited being low bias. DC offset can be checked for in that manner, of course, but perhaps Kosst can clarify how such a measurement can determine if bias is too low.
Fascinating how the circuit focused group analyzes the problem as an amplifier issue and dismisses all other possibilities pretty much out of hand, and rather forcefully. A microcosm of how audiophiles tend to think?
Kosst, thanks for the clarification about the multimeter measurements.
I also want to thank Jwpstayman for his very informative post about the OCOS cables. For one thing, it further reinforces suspicion that they have ultra-high capacitance. (I believe that when he referred to a "nobel network" he probably meant to say "Zobel network," which is something that is commonly used with ultra-high capacitance cables such as Goertz to minimize the capacitive nature of the cables as seen by the amp, that might otherwise cause ringing, oscillations, or even damage).
So based on his post a question for the OP would be if his OCOS cables have a "red" termination network, a "black" termination network, or neither.
Excessive DC on the amplifiers output can easily be checked even without a multi meter, just turn on amplifier while observing the woofer cone if it moves out and does not return to neutral position after the initial turn on bump - the amplifier have excessive DC on the output. It of course can move in also in case the DC voltage is negative.
Opening up the amplifier and checking rail voltages and Bias current is on a whole other level, and best left to someone whom knows what they are doing.
My gut reaction to this is the very long, highly capacitive speaker wires are at least contributing to this. As someone stated above - try lamp cord.
There is a possibility of a blown fuse inside the amp? My BAT has 2 fuses per rail and has an annoying propensity for blowing the front fuse on the lh channel rail. When this happens I can measure over 5vdc at the output terminals. No I do not know why it does this, neither does bat. Could be a possibility that would preclude and expensive trip to a dealer.
Kosst, my hypothesis is not predicated on the cables having changed in any way whatsoever. If it wasn’t clear, when I referred to the condition being "sufficiently marginal that minor aging effects or perhaps even a change in AC line voltage have put it over the edge," resulting in ringing or oscillation, I was referring to minor aging effects in the amplifier. Which in turn might have made the amplifier more prone to ringing or oscillation as a result of the heavy capacitive load.
Admittedly, though, the fact that both channels are exhibiting the problem does **somewhat** lessen the likelihood of my hypothesis accounting for the problem.
Also, Peter (Pbnaudio), thanks for your comment. As many here are aware, Peter is a highly experienced designer of well regarded audio electronics and speakers.
Jea48 12-2-2017
What are the chances the OP could connect the
Linn Linto Phono Preamp
directly to the inputs of the Pass amp without it playing too loud for a test. That would take the
Pass XP 20
out of the equation.
Hi Jim,
In this case that's probably not a good idea, assuming that the "Ortofon Black" cartridge referred to in the OP is the 2M Black. That cartridge has a rated output under the standard test conditions of 5 mv. The low gain (54 db) setting of the phono stage would boost 5 mv to 2.5 volts, which is more than three times greater than the input voltage that would drive the XA30.8 to full power.
Also, I see that the remote control provided with his Esoteric K01X SACD player provides volume control buttons, but although I could be wrong I suspect it is provided for purposes of adjusting the volume on their integrated amplifiers or other components, not on this player.
Your welcome, Jim. Looking further at the Linto specs, though, based on the specified input loading of "150 Ohms in parallel with 4.7nF " (i.e., 4700 pf) it would seem clear that the 2M Black (which is a moving magnet design) is not the cartridge that is being used, and presumably what is being used is an LOMC. So let’s wait for further word from the OP on that.
Does anyone else use your equipment? I've heard (and seen) situations in which the owner's children have shown off the system to their friends...sometimes with dyer consequences (causing a tweeter to be blown back out of it's magnetic field, etc). Just curious as it seems almost everything else has been accounted for. Otherwise...any utility work performed in the area of your home? Best of luck!.
You seem to have some relevant advice to give the OP, and that's great, but please refrain from the insulting manner, in which you address others, based on your disagreement with them. This is supposed to be a civil environment.
I tell ya, there are some folks on these threads with awfully thin skin. If this was a sudden phenomenon, then Kosst mostly likely has it right. Swap the amp and the preamp and see if the problem goes away.
Its not really about awful thin skin. Its about common courtesy and civility. In this instance Kosst could well be right for sure but there are ways and then there are WAYS of getting your point of view across.
These forums are based on freedom of speech and opinion bearing in mind the constraints of decency and civility. Once a member puts forth a view that differs from yours you do NOT spit your dummy out and go on a verbal rampage! That is the stuff of Farcebook and has no place here at all.
Here's hoping the OP enlightens us on some findings.
I see where you are coming from, but take these posts with a grain of salt. Kosst responded emphatically to some nonsensical suggestions, but his RX as usual was cogent. Your narrow sense of what constitutes decency and civility suggests that you might be one of those with the thin skin that I was thinking of. Lighten up, my friend.
@whitestix You could not actually be any further from the truth my friend....lol. I am married so used to being insulted by a professional on a hourly basis! I just do not wish to see these forums degenerate any further Everybody is entitled to their own opinions of course
@geoffkait yet another productive post I see, thank you so much for that.
And yes agreed, we need to lighten up for sure
But I digress, lets leave this idle banter behind and keep on the subject, no further off topic posts from myself...tonight.....
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