Nice post Simao!
Generally, the higher ones standards, the more most things suck.
Therefore, one must conclude that in the world of audiophiles, most things musical are sub par and hence suck.
The solution is selective moderation. Have high standards but be able to lower them when needed to gain a better appreciation of all things and to be able to better relate to the world as a whole.
If you love music and cannot do this effectively when listening to music that might be different or not meet your expectations going in, then I would suppose that one should be in fear of being intolerant. After all its just music. Bad music really hurts noone and some will think it is good.
An open mind and tolerance are good things to strive for. Not always easy... |
I find myself unable to respond knowledgeably to the OP's question, as I have little familiarity with recent popular music. Why? Because every time I encounter any of it on my car radio it sucks, and I promptly change the station. :-)
I'm sure that there are a goodly number of diamonds in the rough, but I find that there is more than enough good music of other kinds and other eras to listen to that I have no interest in looking for them.
Regards,
-- Al |
I find new popular music that I like two ways:
1) via my 12 year old daughter
2) when I hear something I like at the gym in one of the various group workout classes I attend every week. THis is where I find the most new popular stuff I like. Maybe its because the music I hear suits the task at hand, so my perspective tends to be different.
I like to be able to find new popular gems. It makes me feel like a kid again, when I discovered a lot of music mainly by listening to top 40 radio stations back in the day.
But yes, so much good music to listen to, and not enough time to do it all.... |
Yes, nice post Simao, and like Almarg, there is no hesitation when I hear something I don't like as I just hit the other preset. We vote with our wallets, feet and fingers.
Something alluded to but not fully fleshed out is that as I grow older, I find myself less tolerant of what I consider bad music. I think it's one of those rights I think I've "earned" having been here long enough on this mortal coil. Expressing that right is generally tolerated by society as I can be thought of as "that old codger", or something along those lines.
People have become aware that music can be nothing more than an extension of one's personality and there are some pretty rotten people out there with attitudes up the ying yang. It's like the guy with the pit bull at the park who lets his dog jump at you only to restrain it when needed, or the fool who comes up next to you at the stop light with his personality blasting out the window, complete with the "I don't care what you think" expression. Music has taken a turn for the worse as this is the kind of popular music being marketed nowadays. Who wouldn't bemoan it?
Great and wonderful music exists and there's more out there than I can listen to but when just about every kind of contraption out there is capable of transmitting peoples personalities, invading my personal space, it becomes annoying, which I think is behind the OPs post. Boundaries are being crossed and respect is not a consideration. Cell phones are propped on desks playing music I never asked to listen to and people are singing loud enough with their headphones on to be a nuisance.
So, yes, some new music can and does suck.
All the best,
Nonoise |
"Something alluded to but not fully fleshed out is that as I grow older, I find myself less tolerant of what I consider bad music. I think it's one of those rights I think I've "earned" having been here long enough on this mortal coil. Expressing that right is generally tolerated by society as I can be thought of as "that old codger", or something along those lines."
I'm still in denial about being as old as I am. But I do have an AARP card now and I ask for and get senior citizen discounts at the movies. I suppose eventual codgerhood for us all is envitable. Beats the alternative I suppose. |
I should stop living in denial and get one of those AARP cards.
I live now for discounts. |
Just curious. Does This suck? Pretty girl, nice sax part, good beat, millions of views. What's not to like? I have the CD at home. SOund quality ain't bad either. |
06-05-13: Simao
I'm not sure what the deal with "civility" is. I mean, are we to handle every utterance and statement with kid gloves? ... I don't think audiogon is the domain of sycophants. This is a false contrast. There is a whole continuum of behavior in between hostility and sycophancy. Somewhere in the middle is civility. And with that comment, I give up. Enjoy yourselves, gentlemen. Bryon |
Nonoise wrote:
"Something alluded to but not fully fleshed out is that as I grow older, I find myself less tolerant of what I consider bad music."
In some ways this tangentially supports Goose's original statement. I mean, how much "sucky" music did we tolerate, listen to, and even celebrate when we were teens and 20-somethings? And how much harder is it now for us in our 30-50's to actually latch on to a new act with as much gusto as before?
Less tolerance also equals more caution and suspicion of new music and artists.
And less patience to put up with standards that fall below what we've built up within ourselves.
Not to be chauvinist, but it also works the same with women (and vice versa, I suppose). The older we get, the less b.s. we're willing to put up with in order to get to the sweet spot. |
After reading the posts a couple of thoughts come to mind. During my youth there was also Rock/Pop music that I didn't like but I would always have my go to groups. It seems like there was lot more "go to" groups.
I also think that I am less tolarant of mediocre talent and production as mentioned above. I also have a hypothesis that when individuals actually had to play an instrument to make music, there was a greater possibility of something good being produced. |
06-06-13: Bryoncunningham
There is a whole continuum of behavior in between hostility and sycophancy. Somewhere in the middle is civility. Very well said, as usual Bryon. I couldn't agree more. It has often seemed to me, in fact, that when discussions in internet forums become uncivil, it is often because the parties who are at odds with one another do not seem to recognize that shades of gray, matters of degree, and a continuum between extremes are involved in most issues. 06-06-13: Mapman
Just curious. Does This suck? Obviously that's a subjective question, and I certainly would not assert that my subjective opinion is more valid than anyone else's. But fwiw, my reaction to it is mixed. It certainly has a catchy beat (which would probably tempt me to leave it on if I heard it while driving), and yes, she's a nice looking young woman. On the other hand, her voice strikes me as mediocre at best, the "plot" of the video is not to my liking, and the sonics don't do justice to the sax (even allowing for the fact that it's a video on YouTube). For a contrasting example of sax reproduction on YouTube, check out the Viscounts' 1959(!) recording of "Harlem Nocturne," as later used in the 1983 film "Christine." Best regards, -- Al |
Almarg, that's not even in my general "genre" of music, and I thought it was "super tough".
Enjoy the music. |
" It certainly has a catchy beat (which would probably tempt me to leave it on if I heard it while driving), and yes, she's a nice looking young woman. On the other hand, her voice strikes me as mediocre at best, the "plot" of the video is not to my liking, and the sonics don't do justice to the sax (even allowing for the fact that it's a video on YouTube)."
So its a mixed bag for Al with some good points. My assessment is not too far off. I like the fact that its a pop dance song and the song and main riff is saxophone based, so I like the sax part.
So musically, my conclusion is it has some good points so does not suck.
Then there is the video (which I had not seen prior to today), which is not the music, and not really relevant for assessing the music alone. I link to videos mainly because youtube videos is probably the place to go these days when one wants to reference music for free these days, among all the other things. Music videos there are the modern equivalent of watching MTV in the past I suppose.
I think the video is well done, and no doubt the singer is attractive. That's good for videos and entertainment careers overall but not relevant to the music itself. Other than that, I could take it or leave it. |
That song is used in several recent Les Mills syndicated workout classes. The gym I go to uses these. That's where I heard it. It works great there, it struck me as somewhat unique on first listen, and grew on me more over time, so I downloaded the single from amazon and borrowed the CD from the local library when I saw it there.
So one thing I think I learned from this is that teh context in which a song is heard makes a lot of difference in regards to whether one thinks particular music sucks or not. It sounds a lot better to me having experienced it initially in the gym I think. I enjoy it at home as well, but I would normally not be as inclined to take a liking to a tune like this just sitting at home and listening. |
Almarg wrote:
"06-06-13: Almarg
06-06-13: Bryoncunningham
There is a whole continuum of behavior in between hostility and sycophancy. Somewhere in the middle is civility.
Very well said, as usual Bryon. I couldn't agree more.
It has often seemed to me, in fact, that when discussions in internet forums become uncivil, it is often because the parties who are at odds with one another do not seem to recognize that shades of gray, matters of degree, and a continuum between extremes are involved in most issues."
Please. Is that really the case here? In these two pages of responses to Goose's original post, are there really that many people who are unaware of the 50 and more shades of gray inherent in this conversation?
I'm going top reiterate my main point - that despite Bryon's lamenting of its supposed degeneration, this thread has, for the most part, remained civil and productive. There're always be a few ankle-biters amidst the crowd, but you have to ignore them. |
Goose wrote:
"I also have a hypothesis that when individuals actually had to play an instrument to make music, there was a greater possibility of something good being produced."
Here's an interesting article about the supposed demise of R&B, by John Blake, an African-American reporter and music critic. He points out that the separation of the artist from the instrument is one of the prime causes of the sweeping trend towards solipsism and self-absorbance in modern R&B.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/02/showbiz/music/love-songs |
Not to pat ourselves on the back but can it be that our audiophile tendencies in the pursuit of better music reproduction dovetails with better music appreciation?
With the lower quality sources and playback devices we are bombarded with, is it really any wonder why we are less tolerant? This reminds me of the commercial where two cars are stopped at an intersection and one them has what appears to be two thugs blasting their music. The man in the other car says something like he can't take it anymore and with his wife saying "Don't", gets out of his car and gets in with the thugs only to adjust the equalizer on their stereo, explaining how and why he's doing it, with the thugs nodding in approval.
I wouldn't recommend doing it but the Walter Mitty in me smiled.
All the best,
Nonoise |
An illogical obsession with stereo gear, has absolutely no connection with, and is no indication of, music appreciation.
Cheers |
What constitutes an illogical obsession?
Is that in the DSM on psychological disorders?
Absolutely no connection nor indication of music appreciation?
Again, I'l like to see the data.
Do you see anyone here as having an illogical obsession with stereo gear and not appreciate music?
Please cite the post(s).
You posit too many extremes and take a giant leap in logic to arrive at, what?
An exercise in trolling?
All the best,
Nonoise |
I was just responding to the 'pat ourselves on the back' thingy.
Cheers |
Interesting interview w/ Michael Fremer, link on Analog Planet. Mr Fremer was saying how the audio industry was striving back in the day. He alluded to the fact that the music was so great, people would want to hear it in the best way they can. I think in general, he has a point. |
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What Fermer said is not what the present day high-end is all about. Back then, the music was great and people wanted the highest fidelity possible, to hear it. It was all about the music. The gear was just a necessity.
Now days, audiophiles buy mega systems, and then go in search an 'audiophile grade' recording to play on that system. It's all about the gear. Music is just the software.
My statement still stands. Like the founding Fathers, I find these truths to be self-evident.
Cheers |
Again, extreme posits put forth as truth without question as only you can see it.
Objectivity my man. Objectivity. No one holds all the cards.
All the best,
Nonoise |
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High quality recordings of good music were a novelty early on. That is the difference, not that the music was better. 50+ years later, its old hat and more all over the place, and not as big a deal as back then. People have many more options regarding how to spend their leisure time. |
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced oontext largely determines how people respond to music. People relate to music based on their experiences. Its an emotional thing. If it registers with someone, it does not suck. Someone relates to it, even if not you. If noone or few people ever do, then I would say it is sucking material. Popular music registers the most. So it cannot suck. Attitudes can change over time. if people continue to relate to it years later, that is the ultimate test. Time always tells. There is no right or wrong, ggod or bad combination of notes, chords, whatver without a person out there somewhere to appreciate it or not. |
That thing you asked about, to use your words, sucks expletively big time. How 'big a deal' was it back then as a mere novelty? Pretty big imo as the novelties constituted entire collections. Anybody out there listening to the Beatles on their Magicos? Both Fjn04 and Rok2id are right on the money and you can't not know it along with just about everyone watching this thread. |
I must admit that I am shocked! No, really, I am amazed that musical drivel like the recording on the link to "Does THIS suck?" can be thought to do anything BUT suck. Call me uncivil, arrogant, pompous, elitist; whatever. It is musical garbage, and I thought it was a joke. I really don't mean to offend anyone, but "nice beat"?, "nice sax"?. Really? Repetitive rhythm produced by a drum machine, simplistic and out-of-tune saxophone, and really poor singing. If that doesn't suck, how does one judge the good stuff. There, I said it; it sucks!
As has been pointed out, music reflects the times. We live in a time when standards are being given less and less importance. It is much more important to be "open minded", and to have a strong sense of what is good and what is bad (or what is right and what is wrong), to judge, is looked down upon. I think that is unfortunate, and is a big part of the reason that there is so much bad "pop" music today. Before anyone gets up in arms about my lack of civility, I would like point out that the OP asked "why does MOST new music suck?". He didn't ask "why does ALL new music suck". Of course there is good new music (pop/rock per the OP), but if we answer the original question the answer is a definite yes. |
Most importantly, he didn't ask 'if' it sucks. That is clearly a given. |
Wow, this thread has been much more interesting than I first thought it would be. I must strongly agree with Frogman's last post. I especially agree with "We live in a time when standards are being given less and less importance. It is much more important to be "open minded", and to have a strong sense of what is good and what is bad (or what is right and what is wrong), to judge, is looked down upon. I think that is unfortunate, and is a big part of the reason that there is so much bad "pop" music today. " It is as if aesthetics do not matter at all anymore. |
"I must admit that I am shocked! No, really, I am amazed that musical drivel like the recording on the link to "Does THIS suck?" can be thought to do anything BUT suck. "
The publsihed numbers on the video would seem to contradict that.
They indicate many more in fact liked it than not:
Like 460,012 Dislike 13,456
Obviously anyone is free to not like anything, but how can something that so many people like "suck"?
Maybe those who don't like it are in the minority but have the good taste and the other not? OR maybe those who don't like it just can't relate to it for whatever reason?
I think the latter to be the root cause and the musical tastes associated to be a function of the individual's unique perspective of things, which can only subjectively be deemed better or worse than any others.
Just trying to make some interesting conversation.... |
Goose,
Here are some lyrics from a few Zeppelin songs that has raised a brow or two over the years:
Whole Lotta Love "way down in side, woman, you need love" "I'm gonna give you every inch of my love"
Lemon Song "Squeeze my lemon, til the juice runs down my leg, squeeze it so I fall right out of bed"
Great band though..... |
Simao:
That is an Interesting article by Blake. I would say the root cause of all the Cultural losses suffered by black people, was the civil rights movement / Great Society. In order to gain a lot, they gave up a lot. Not deliberate, or by choice, it's just the way societies work.
Where is the great R&B music? It suffered the same fate as the great black Boxers and Jazz players and Blues players and Gospel singers and Writers and Preachers / Churches /Teachers / Schools / sense of community / etc...... They were the price paid for assimilation into the American Mass.
Now they can be just as ordinary and average and uninspiring and boring and untalented as anyone else. They have achieved equality.
They have arrived!
Cheers
The best latest example: The super Bowl Half-Time show. I forgot it before it was even over. |
Wow.
That's the kind of logic that gets the Heritage Foundation in trouble.
Coach a bias in something resembling academia and you can feel better saying it.
All the best,
Nonoise |
IMO, people are forgetting that a lot of the music during the 60's also "sucked" and the rate of "suckage" is probably no greater today than in yesteryear. It's just that the better music stands the test of time and continues to be enjoyed while the lesser quality music falls away...I do recall that the 1960's gave us the musical stylings of Herman's Hermits, Bobby Goldsboro and Tiny Tim, all of which were popular in the day.
As I get, ahem, more 'mature', I find myself more open to all kinds of music. I'd hate to miss out on some of the great new music by restricting myself to the music of a bygone era...my $.02. |
I don't think there will ever be a time when kids and old codgers agree on which music is good and which sucks.
Better to avoid the term "sucks" altogether. "Not my cup of tea" is probably a more accurate assessment and also happens to sound a lot better. |
It's a more civil way of discourse that I'm keen to observe. |
Different dynamic way back when. Music was full of politics; industrial revolution in fruition, birth of rock n' roll, beatniks, long hair, hippie movement. It was 1963 when I saw two guys walking down our street with hair way down past their shoulders(serious pioneers). The 'Beatle' hair cut and boots were in vogue. As they walked by, my father commented "Look at those degenerate apes. From behind you can't tell if they're women or men". His tone was literally murderous. His ignorance was the catalyst for his hatred of the new music. He was 38. To a kid, definitely an old codger. Once his and even older generations got used to the hair, there was lots of toe-tapping and humming then current music going on. It took about 5-6 years. Maybe not hard-rock but there was lots going on besides that. 'Yesterday' became my dad's fav in 1967. Longer hair covering the ears became fashionable for older men, 'Beatlemania' having taken root to the farthest reaches of society. So kids and old codgers always agreed on which music is good and which sucks whether they admitted it or not. |
Nonoise: an "illogical obsession wtih stereo gear" would most likely fit under impulse control disorder, NOS in the DSM- but it would need to be related to clinically significant impairment or distress.
Jazdoc nailed it, I think. There has ALWAYS been a mix of "good" and "bad" music, but the bad fades away and the good is how we define music in that era. |
Conservatism, by its very nature, resists change, for any reason. Your "long haired" story brings back memories for me as well. Don't think though, for a moment, that it has died down even with the changes in hairstyle and acceptance of some music. "Hippy Punching" is alive and well in all manner from discourse to open action and still influences decision making on many levels.
The time frame you mention is only a few decades ago and has a very long way to go. Look at the "Wars of Northern Aggression" attitudes of today. Old habits, beliefs, mores and folkways die hard if not linger on in some illogically resistant form, impervious to facts coupled with an inability to move onto the next evolutionary step.
It's no wonder music can suffer as a result. Thank goodness that there will always be artists who stand out against the norm, the bland, the lower denominators that are marketed by the majors with their tried and trued, market driven formulas. They always say that they only give the people what they want. To that I call "B.S." People can be accepting of a lot more than what they're given. First thing I'd do is stop all the focus groups which serves nothing more than to dilute artistic expression and keep things in their comfort zones. Show me any decent artist who stayed within the lines and I'll show you a crass opportunist.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Ionmoon,
Missed your post while writing my rant, but thanks for the clarification. I don't think it would apply to anyone here, yet. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
I couldn't agree more. But keep in mind that within conservatism live the checks and balances, the anchor to the future. Without which there is no new starting point. Without market driven formulas there is no dissent. This is the earmark of the artist, is it not? However when it comes to music, there is only so much gold in the mine. As it is depleted, so also is the karat value of the alloy. |
Csontos, You've a keen eye. Yes, a firm foundation is needed to proceed from. It's just the resistance part I hate. And boundaries are needed to know where to proceed from, where to test the waters. And yes, there is nothing new under the sun, just the shady spots that haven't yet been explored. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
But what if the shady spots aren't shady after all? What if they are simply your own personal discovery in retrospect? What is the value of sifting through a heap of scrap hoping to find a lost treasure when it's alive and well right where it belongs? |
What I alluded to is what has yet to be seen or discovered, maybe anew, or simply overlooked or needing a new twist or take. We all create based on what we know, what is passed on freely from others, and some times we invent, creating something great out of many plain and ordinary pieces.
As for what's hidden in plain sight (I think that's what you meant), I'm famous for missing those gems.
All the best,
Nonoise |
We're kind of on the same page. I'm talking about all the thousands of pre 90's recordings you haven't heard yet. |
Granted. And probably never will. It's like when I was a kid: I'd spend a lot of my time in the library and dream of reading ALL the books and how wonderful it would be. Bad eyesight put a serious chink in that design.
Thank goodness my ears work well enough.
All the best,
Nonoise |
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Nothing. I'm still looking, listening and absorbing. I just don't feel the urge to ferret out everything that's available.
You're point? |
