Why do you think Bi-Wiring improves the sound ?
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First Hand Experience: I’ve owned my B&W 801-S2’s for over 25 years, and have tried on 3 separate occasions to "improve" them with bi-wiring. It seems that about every 10 years I need to re-prove it to myself. Each time, the resulting sound was phasey and less coherent. The 801’s have great driver integration. You don’t hear woofer+mid+tweeter. They gel into single voice very nicely, and that falls apart with bi-wiring....... every time. I even lived with them bi-wired for a couple weeks to get accustomed to that sound, and I did.... until I went back to single wire, and they suddenly sounded more correct. It all comes down to HOW WAS IT DESIGNED!! If the designer voiced the crossover with bi-wiring, then OF COURSE it’s going to sound more correct that way. But what stupid designer would do that, when only a very small percentage of users will bi-wire? Just last year, I finally upgraded my 801’s binding posts, and converted them to using only 1 pair of higher quality terminals. I have performed many other crossover mods on them over the years that have improved these 801’s greatly, but bi-wiring is NOT one of them. |
@mirolab I'm disappointed that your efforts didn't produce positive results . I looked up images of the 801 S2 speakers and was able to find pictures of the crossover board and of a modded board . How did you bi-wire your speakers or where did you seperate the bass from the mid/tweeter ? Please provide us with more information . For my speakers it would be easy since the crossover boards are already seperated and both are connected at the speaker posts . But I'm still not convinced or curious enough to try bi-wiring yet . |
mirolab85, "It all comes down to HOW WAS IT DESIGNED!!" You must be one hell of a confident dude if you genuinely believe you can easily mod the 801s for better sound. I used to be similarly ’confident’ but eventually, after only a mere 15/20 years of wasting time and money, the penny sunk. To upgrade - buy a better product - but if funds are tight right now, wait. Throwing good money after bad never works. Think about it, one man versus all the resources and all the know-how of the mighty Bowers & Wilkins. https://www.bowerswilkins.com/en-gb?gclid=CjwKCAjwqdn1BRBREiwAEbZcR_Ymb9I1eJVR0AIYEJPWexOqoTOk5aMCjn... |
@millercarbon I concur with your early post. I used to bi-wire my speakers until I purchased more expensive wiring. I had a heavy gauge woofer wire and a smaller gauge mid/tweeter wire (same manufacturer, similar design). About 12 years ago, the manufacturer provided a superior jumper and superior speaker cable. The overall improvement over the bi-wire was evident. I've upgraded the speaker cable once more. Outstanding sound, with a bass jumper. Plus, I saved 50% on another set of cables. I was never a fan of solid copper jumpers for bass (never for mid/tweeter) that speaker manufacturers supplied (too crude and sounds that way). |
Short answer: There is no silver bullet answer. (1) it depends on your bespoke system entirely , AND , (2) improvements from bi-amping rather than bi-wiring is another different animal entirely. NORDOST has a brief commentary: http://info.nordost.com/norse-biwirejumpers-instructionguide They also highlight that a shotgunned double run of quality cables with quality jumpers instead of bi-wires may be your best bet.... But take it for a test drive yourself. CHORD has their two-bits worth in the same vein.... CHORD no longer makes dedicated bi-wires and also suggest that quality single runs with matched jumpers may be your better performers. http://www.chord.co.uk/help-and-informa ... ngle-wire/ My own personal experiences: a shotgunned double-run with matched shotgunned jumpers of high-end cables in the diagonal speaker hookup arrangement suggested by the NORDOST article beat all bi-wires in my system. This is what most of the prior posts have already laid out .... go get a better set of cables . |
Capacitance, inductance, reflections, phasing, and terminations are all part of the speaker wire equation. There is no way to predict how they will interact with your speakers and amp. I’ll trust the speaker designers’ opinions - ON THEIR OWN SPEAKERS. If Vandersteen has designed to benefit from bi-wiring, then the speakers might benefit from bi-wiring. If Dynaudio says "do not bi-wire," they probably won’t benefit from bi-wiring, no matter what Vandersteen says - after all he didn’t design the Dynaudios. Unless the bi-wire has different construction for highs and lows, it’s unlikely that you will hear the difference. Unless you bi-amp also. But then we’re back to the active crossover question. Which may improve or deteriorate the sound you hear. How many reflection points within cables are acceptable? How many strands is too many for capacitance to bass? One? Fifty? At what frequency, for your amp/speakers, does the surface effect go internal? Can you hear it? Does it strain the amp? Does it change the speaker response to impedance variations with frequency? Will bi-wire sound better or worse if you change components? It will probably be different. Can you predict by reading opinions? Probably not. Can you tell by listening? Probably not without A-B comparisons. Can you A-B without a duplicate system, perfectly matched? Probably not. Can you make a valid generalization about bi-wiring? Probably not. |
In my experience bi-wiring never improves the sound, it is always horses for courses, you win something and you lose something. The initial feeling of an improved sound is often caused by a slightly better separation, but after a while I realise that the presentation have lost some coherence. I gave up on bi-wiring long ago, and my amplifier manufacturer (Lavardin) bluntly advises against it. With a limited budget having a better single wire speaker cable rather than a cheaper bi-wire one works fo me. |
If 90% of all audio system and probably more, are not rightly embedded in their three dimensions : mechanical, electrical, and acoustical, how is it possible to perceive subtle or less subtle qualitative changes? How to rightly qualify them positive or negative changes? How to judge if a cable or 2 cables are always better or always detrimental for the same speakers? It is impossible.... Why people then give judgements? Because they dont have a clue about the rightful controls necessary for making the best of their own system... I know that because I was like that 3 years ago …. :) If you ask me how do we know if our system is right? I will answer that one clue is that the idea to upgrade anything appear suddenly like a total waste of money....The other clue is when you dont perceive any speakers at all in the room... The last clue is when you clearly distinguish all accurate timbre of each instrument in an orchestra....And perhaps when it is impossible to change any files or any cd just playing now because it is too much beautiful, you are right there.... |
mahgister wrote: "In my experience bi-wiring never improves the sound” more details needed to understand findings: 1) speaker: impedance/ 2Way or 3Way / speakers internal x-over design 2) length/resistance/inductance of cable 3) amplifier used bi-wiring will “tangible” improve sound if: 1) initial cable is long (6+ft, high resistance 50+mOhm, high inductance 2) amplifier is high quality 3) speakers are 3 way |
My Mission Cyrus 781 speakers were specifically designed to be bi-wired...At the time I experience a better sound when I go with the dual cabling........Bi-wiring was required for my Mission speakers and I sense a more detailed sound when I did it... I dont remember where I just wrote this, but I make a mistake if this is my quote.... mahgister wrote: "In my experience bi-wiring never improves the sound” |
Unless Vandersteen knows what your amplifier or wires are, there would be no way to predict the outcome, based on the rest of what you wrote. Products often incorporate designers "beliefs" which may or may not agree with reality. I’ll trust the speaker designers’ opinions - ON THEIR OWN SPEAKERS. If Vandersteen has designed to benefit from bi-wiring, then the speakers might benefit from bi-wiring. If Dynaudio says "do not bi-wire," they probably won’t benefit from bi-wiring, no matter what Vandersteen says - after all he didn’t design the Dynaudios. |
No, but it was really obvious, no need, not at all subtle. I'm not a tweaker or believer in fancy cables, gold plated power connectors, any of that crap. But bi-amping is a substantially different equipment configuration that is naturally going to sound very different. Part of it is I think the 30-year old crossovers in my Maggies probably need refreshing, and so using an active crossover is a better bet. |
@ alexdv1: thanks for posting this link! I agree 100% on technical details for bi-wiring there. from schematics side, bi-wiring is a two independent networks connecting presumably low output impedance amp to lo/hi speakers, while single cable is shared cable impedance between lo/hi thus lesser speaker isolation https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/ |
