@vitto You seem to know yourself well, and that's great. I find that the pleasures are of different sorts -- the difference, e.g. of enjoying a sensual pleasure (such as music or food) vs. enjoying a good puzzle (analyzing sound or doing a crossword). I don't feel a need to rank them, but your point about keeping a balance of them in my life is right on! |
Being a former musician this is hard for me to say, but the sound IS as important to me now as is the music. Unless it’s a historic performance of great merit, I can’t listen to a mediocre sounding recording without turning it off. And conversely, I might bear a mediocre rendering if it sounds amazing. |
( by luck ) I am with Bill Hart. I own a Browning Superposed Grade V Diana with engraving by Doyen, one of the Master engravers ....it is hunted hard. Some find this shocking, as I am sure the Pheasant do. My Dog on the other hand makes no distinction in favoring the Diana....as long as we go and there are birds...
i will say put some acoustic unamplified music in your life...for intimacy, connection, simplicity, grace, delicacy, force.... |
**** The original question is why do some dismiss the love of gear by the tactic of making music an ultimate end. ****
Simple, because for some it IS the ultimate end. “Making music the ultimate end” is not a “tactic” for many music lovers, it is a reflection of appreciation for the depth of the greatness of inspired music making.
Now, everyone is free to approach and enjoy this hobby any way that it suits him and judging this is pointless. Moreover, I am not aware of any preponderance of “dismissal” of the love of gear on the part of those for whom music is the ultimate end. I love my audio toys, but not nearly as much as I love great music; even if on mediocre recordings. I am frankly surprised at the number of posters that have put the gear on an equal or even superior footing to the music.
Inconvenient truths: First, let’s start with the simple fact that without music the gear is useless; unless put on a shelf for viewing only. That simple fact alone puts music on a higher plane than the gear. The music does not need the gear; the gear needs the music. This goes to the heart of why the live music experience is best of all; as problematic as it may be in some respects, but that’s a different story. While acknowledging the great skill and creativity that goes into designing a great piece of gear, to compare this achievement to that reflected in, say, a Bach cantata or Beethoven symphony; or, the spontaneous inspiration behind a great John Coltrane or Jeff Beck solo strikes me as a bit shallow. Moreover, I would bet that most of the great gear designers would agree and would be the first to acknowledge this.
I am not aware of anyone ever having been brought to tears from staring at a silent pair of speakers.
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@frogman I agree and at the same time have seen someone's face go white from staring at a silent speaker with a whole in the woofer after his son decided to poke a hole in it with his pirates sword! He was strong...he didn't cry. He also managed to 'coach his son' on not damaging things while recognizing kids will be kids. |
I am not aware of anyone ever having been brought to tears from staring at a silent pair of speakers.
I always weep in front of my silent speakers.... But it is after listening to Scriabin or Chet Baker.... Never before..... |
Some people (mostly male when it comes to audio and other mechanical objects) just plain love gear. That gear may have a purpose:
Cars: Driving
Cameras: Taking pictures
Audio: Listening to music
Bikes: Riding
But I think it's completely fair that some people love the stuff more than what the stuff is intended to do. That happens in all of the categories I've listed above...Cars that are only shown, not driven, Bikes that are collected and not ridden, etc. Who am I to judge what others take pleasure in doing. |
@frogman said:Now, everyone is free to approach and enjoy this hobby any way that it suits him and judging this is pointless.
Then you go ahead and judge. Ok, so which is it? Is this a non-judgable, everyone is free to believe their own truth about this topic? Or do is your true for more than just one person (you)? I’m fine with you asserting that this question is relative to each person or asserting that there is an objective truth to the matter -- but which is it? FWIW, I have already laid out a number of opinions on this thread and don’t care to rehearse them, so take a look earlier if you care to see them. |
After frogman’s post I feel it very necessary to clarify my stance.
Of course, sound cannot begin to approach the profundity of spirit and soul that the art of music can supply (or any other great art for that matter.) They certainly don’t exist on an equal plain.
And I must apologize if I put that forth as a credo.
What I am saying is that this system “toy” gives me great pleasure in and of it itself. Often I listen just for the “sound.” I realize that is not ideally why I’m listening. But I’m seduced by the sensuality of it. And it IS an enjoyment in itself. Unfortunately the content of the music can suffer. I admit it is a big problem for me. I often can’t get into the soul of the music. And I’m unhappy about it. But it just can’t be helped.
So, like it or not, sound and music share my affections |
Hey @rvpiano- simple solution....only play music you like that is well recorded, pressed, and sounds great. You’ll have less selection but won’t be unhappy. Listen to the other stuff in the car, and the stuff you can’t get into, sell. |
@rvpiano I totally get where you're coming from. I would just add this comment. Leonardo Da Vinci was an artist and an engineer, a painter and an inventor; the "how" of things and the "feel" of things commingled for him. Their entanglement were the conditions which made him who he was -- and great, to boot. There are countless others who combined imagination and calculation, too. The view that one of these human faculties is "ultimately" more important may be an expression of personal preference, but as an expression of "how things really are," it's baseless. Would we have anything to play on our rigs without music? Of course not. Would we have anything to say without brains? No. But without means to communicate, who knows what we'd think? What would music be without anything to play it on?
This extends past gear to instruments themselves. A harpsichord score without a harpsichord? Nothing. Then came the forte piano and then the fully developed piano. More music was inspired and developed by those instruments because they provided modalities without which certain musical creations couldn't come into being. Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier" was made possible by Bach *and* developments in the technology of the piano. As McLuhan said, "The medium is the message." |
hilde45 --
Your post eloquently brings this discussion to its finish. By the infinite power vested in me, the august edcyn, I hereby declare this thread closed! |
@edcyn Seconded and....thread unfollowed! Peace, all! |
rv, we are in agreement. No need to apologize. Sound and music shape my affections as well; each to different degrees.
hilde45, you asked some questions and I answered them, according to my feelings on the matter. You asked “what do you think?” “on what grounds do you see it argued that music is a superior end?” and “what reasons support that conclusion?”. I gave you honest answers. I’m sorry you didn’t like my answers, or that you feel they are politically incorrect somehow. As I said, we are all free to enjoy this hobby in the manner of our choosing; that is obvious. However, this doesn’t mean that we don’t each have personal opinions on the matter. I made it clear that I love audio, but I find the idea that the gear and even the buying of it is as enjoyable and satisfying as the music....well, odd to say the least. That’s just me. If this is not you, be comfortable in your own skin. I am sorry if this offends you in some way, but remember, it was you that first questioned why some of us feel the way that we do. |
Much to say about some of the more recent comments, but since the thread has been deemed closed......
Yes, peace, all! |
A musical score, at least to someone who understands them, is a complete and fully realized piece of music. It's similar to architectural blueprints. You don't actually have to construct the building to be able to walk through the space.
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@onhwy61 Love that reply! You're a Pythagorean, at heart, since any score or blueprint could be reduced to mathematical relationships involved. Everything is numbers (and their ratios) and anything beyond that is a mere epiphenomenon. |
It’s almost like having a split personality for me. One part audiophile the other music lover. When the audiophile takes over I almost cease to listen to the music, concentrate on the sound and lose the musical message. When the music lover is present, the whole package becomes apparent, and I can wallow in the pleasure of both sound and music. |
@rvpiano Know exactly what you mean. I won’t prattle on about this, but Pirsig’s Zen and the Art novel does a good job of explaining why we take these different moments of ourselves and divide them into categories -- such as "left brain/right brain," "objective/subjective," "classical/romantic," etc. You can see the level of emotion in the posts here -- how strongly people are committed to thinking of these aspects as "sides." Frequently, they oppose the other side *or* the collapse of the two sides. In the end, there is a bird’s flight, i.e., experience full of perchings (analysis) and flights (action, passion). |
