Why discussions generate into personal affronts...
Hello to all... I am a new-be in comparison to those who have thousands of inputs into forums/discussions.
I find it disappointing that in reading inputs, I have to waste time in members sniping at each other. Half the time it simply is a difference in opinion that breaks down into nasty idiocy, and half the time I need some type of reference to past verbal battles fought about in other topics/forums.
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO IMHO? Many times spewing personal dogma against each other just confuses simple people like me who are just looking for guidance - not miracles. We all view another's opinion with reservation - nobody's got a doctorate on audiophile experience; if I was to listen to and obey the professionals, I would never had experimented with 12g solid core copper, vinyl-jacketed wire, twisted and used bare wire no connectors -WHICH I AM VERY HAPPY WITH ...
SO: SOMEBODY fill me in why knowledgeable people generate into nastiness in discussions...
It seems that fascinations and speculations and theories and observations drive people nuts. Since observing and theorizing and speculating and being fascinated about things is the way I live, usually when I launch a thread it turns bad in a jiffy.
I have a website with almost seven hundred observations and speculations. I ain't no amateur here.
Hey, look: The OP was curious about the behavior and even this thread had some nastiness in it.
And it's funny that this should come up anyway. My first contemplation today before coming here was of three people I know that are real belligerent. I'll say something that is patently obvious, like my washing machine is broken, and they'll pick a fight about it. They having absolutely no knowledge of my washing machine whatsoever. They are obviously mentally ill but somehow seem to function in society.
Here's another observation: The less a person knows, the more vehement he is. And I'm sure that that observation is going to ignite some vehement responses. But being information-proof is a self-reinforcing condition.
Shouldn't that be "people degenerate into nastiness in discussions..."?Just kidding, of course.I believe it happens because we live in a world that is increasingly becoming black or white, right or wrong.The reality is that the world is mostly shades of grey.
A big factor is the 'keyboard warrior' mentality. People are SO brave when there aren't any true consequences to be paid. This very well may be the primary reason for all the negativity.
mrearl Here's another observation: The less a person knows, the more vehement he is. And I'm sure that that observation is going to ignite some vehement responses. But being information-proof is a self-reinforcing condition.
Having been a Audiogon member under two different handles going on seventeen years, the clashes never cease for the very reason that Audiogon is made up of two camp's, The Audiophile Music lovers and the Technophile geeks. For example, back in the late 90's I was a member of the Washington State Audio Society. Once a month we would meet at a church on Mercer Island, on the bottom floor that was nicely finished, and we would evaluate gear provided by Definitive Audio or Magnolia Hi-Fi and on occasion Bob Carver would show up. Many of the members were Technophiles that are just into specs and are only analytical of sound from a speaker, instead of enjoying the music. The one meeting I decided to leave the club was on the subject of how to make a power cord. God help me...but the night was special due to the fact Magnolia provided Denon's top high end system, the big gold mono blocs and the matching gold components. I brought some great original master CD's, Copeland, Brubeck, Beethoven and a few others. The moment I loaded the Denon player and hit play most of the members got up, went to the back of the room to chat in small circles. Another example is one of the members whom I've known for many years, has an average system in his home in the $40K range and every year he sells and buys, and only has 20 CD's in his collection and when we first met in the early 90's I brought some Dylan over, and he asked, who is Bob Dylan ? The only clashes I have on Audigon are from Technophiles since I'm in the other camp.
A matter of concern that several posts on this thread recently agreed with my post and their post have been removed. If the member's removed them, which wouldn't make sense, and if the Audiogon moderators removed the post then it is very dark day for Audiogon due to the fact going back ten tears, post on both sides of the table, on the issue of this thread would've not been removed which would indicate that the moderator's are now judge and jury and do not take a neutral objective position's, and decide which side is right or wrong, and only will allow post on the side they favor. That's not how debates are done.This post will probably be removed as well.
I guess some people just have to be right and get their way but if that was the case we would only have one amp company, one speaker company or whatever. We should all be able to have our opinion without being nasty and insulting. I spent my money on what I like and sounds good to be and you should be able to do the same.
People's understanding of audio (and in general, the world) is a part of who they are. Dissenting views threaten that understanding which can be upsetting and people can get angry.
Counterpoint: In theory there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is. There are things in various areas of life that should not work, but do, and/or are unexplainable*. Which is not to suggest that one believe every fad either.
*Science is only settled, until it is not. History is filled with examples of peoples/scientists sure of one thing or another which are subsequently shown to be false (see Max Plank quote in the "Is There any Consensus at all amongst Audiophiles" thread.)
People's understanding of audio (and in general, the world) is a part of who they are. Dissenting views threaten that understanding which can be upsetting and people can get angry.
True, but it’s too bad that before getting angry they don’t spend even a little energy trying to understand the alternate viewpoint and how that perception may be valid for somebody else. We have forgotten how to agree to disagree. Newsflash, there are no trophies given here for being “right.”
When people hear a 5 year old say something silly/untrue about the way the world works, few get upset. OTOH when e.g. an engineer runs across people saying things about cables/interconnects that appears to contradict what they know, some get upset/angry. Nobel prize winning physicist Max Planck said:
A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
People are very attached to their ideas and presenting contrary information can be very threatening to some people. Some people are open (perhaps too open in some cases) to new ideas, others not so much.
"We have forgotten how to agree to disagree" We do live in polarizing times, but I think it is more a matter of individual temperament.
Agendas and ignorance governed by pride and narcissism.
People become so attached to their world-view or audio-view, that it stops being a pursuit of audio nirvana and starts becoming an agenda to promote a particular viewpoint to the point of rejecting anything that may call that view into question. Because its a commercial industry as well, holding onto that viewpoint can be for hardened for those with financial gain.
Those world-views are often built on narcissistic beliefs of one's own superiority, often cultivated by success in something not remotely related and flourish due to ignorance in the topics related to that world-view. Personal pride prevents admitting mistakes no matter how clear cut those mistakes are.
atdavid Agendas and ignorance governed by pride and narcissism.
People become so attached to their world-view or audio-view, that it stops being a pursuit of audio nirvana and starts becoming an agenda to promote a particular viewpoint to the point of rejecting anything that may call that view into question. Because its a commercial industry as well, holding onto that viewpoint can be for hardened for those with financial gain.
And see how geoffkait proves my point. One only has to read his repeated posts about CD wobble and laser scatter, often in threads that have nothing to do with CD playback, and his total lack of what should be easily measured results to understand how agenda and bias causes threads to denigrate. Notice how as opposed to addressing my points (here or elsewhere), he quickly jumps to an ad-hominem, trying to discredit me as opposed to addressing the arguments I make.
Thank you for supplying the excellent example GK!! I appreciate it.
Actually, I don’t have to discredit you. You discredit yourself by your own endless uninformed jibber jabber. I don’t have to lift a finger. My promise is still good, I will let you win an argument one of these days.
To the to the OP. For an answer to your question, you really don’t need to look much further than the “l must always be right” mentality of geoffkait and a few other posters
Having just been banned again from another audiophile forum, I can tell you that politics plays a big BIG part of why mods and forum owners get antsy. Many times, IME, the forum owners begin to believe that they are the B all and end all of the web universe. After all, it is their forum and they can see fit to do whatever they like with it...including playing favorites and making sure that all members conform to their way of thinking...or get banned! Luckily, so far, this forum seems to be very liberal and fair in its practices....which is why I prefer to post here. However, to answer the OP’s question, i think that there is a ton of hypocrisy and politics on a lot of these forums, leading to very biased moderation.and hidden agendas becoming rampant. One of my current least favorites is Wallet Big Forum. Talk about hidden agendas with their mods and owners...WOW! All of course, IMHO.
Ha GK! Your 18000 rambling posts on everything under the sun is indicative that you clearly don’t subscribe to Einstein’s posit. I await your pithy retort within the hour...
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