Regards Raul & fans of the Audio-Technica AT-170ML. Please tell your opinions/experiences of it vs. ATSLa/SS. Is the original cantilever really gold plated boron ? Does a different cantilever make progression, is it worth of retipping ? Are the generators of 180ML and 170ML different ?
PROGRESSIVE NEW YEAR to all |
Dear Nandric: Months or years ago I posted to Dgarretson something like this:
++++ " hey why you suddenly change what you was supporting " yesterday " and not today " +++++
and he gave me an answer like this:
+++ " Raul, I have the right to improve my self and improved..... " ++++
that explain per se what means our each one " audio learning curve " and where " I'm " today.
Things are that many of us read and hear and even discuss on many different audio subjects through different forums/threads. This exercise in theory gives us the opportunity to grow up the opportunity to learn and the opportunity to apply those audio learning lessons.
Unfortunatelly only a few of the persons really " learn ". " Really learn " means , IMHO , to take action or actions on what we learn to put on practice what we learn and to have an " audio attitude " according with that learning and according to that learning experiences.
Now, maybe 30-40 years ago when started the " fashion " for headshell integrated cartridge designs, the manufacturers/designers thinked that the cartridge/tonearm alignment was not so important like other factors/characteristics on cartridge set up to achieve the best of any cartridge.
My self not 30-40 years ago but 20 years ago I was unaware on the critical importance subject of cartridge/tonearm alignment and in those times I never took in count.
Even when I " arrived " to Audiogon I can't remember any one that talked/posted on the importance of cartridge/tonearm alignment through Baerwald, Löfgren, Stevenson, etc, etc. kind of alignments. Audio dealers and the " analog gurus " in the audio magazines normally never touched that alignment subject.
I was one of the first persons in Agon whom started to analize the importance of that cartridge/alignment set up. Latter on more and more persons been aware on the subject and appeared several threads in Agon where we discuss in deep the whole subject and the conclusions in every single thread was that we need to make the cartridge/tonearm set up according to any of those alignment/geometry alternatives. The subject was and is so important that started to appear several cartridge/tonearm alignment protractors to make it in the " rith/precise " way because any tiny deviation on that set up increment the sounds/music distortions on what we are listening.
In all those scientific/math alignments the target is to find out the precise cartridge offset angle and overhang for the set up. We analize how tiny deviations on overhang and offset angle or in both take the distortions to higher levels we can imagine and that we can hear.
One of those protractors was the now famous MintLP that has a lot of owners where each one of them bless and blessed this protractor and its precission because in the very first day that they maade their cartridge/tonearm set up alignment through that protractor everything changed for the better and by a wide margin. I can't remember no one that could tolld the that protractor did not improved his cartridge quality performance level.
Now, in a monolitic headshell integrated cartridge design as the Glanz and the FR ones we can't make a precise alignment and can't change an alignment according to what the carfridge/tonearm needs or according what we want.
Why is that?, plain and simple:
IN THE FR7GLANZ DESIGNS YOU CAN'T MAKE ANY SINGLE CHANGE IN THE OFFSET ANGLE AND OVERHANG ACCORDING TO THE SET UP NEEDS!!!!
in the best " scenario " with those monolitics exist ( at random ) only one kind of set up that could coincide with the cartridge needs.
Everytime that we need to change the VTA/SRA the overhang change and in those monolitics you can't change the overhang so you will have higher distortions and if you need to change the offset angle to align in precise way the cartridge cantilever in the MintLP protractor you can't do it either and this means that you have to stay in the way you are hearing/listening those higher distortions and are these " kind of distortions " what you, Desmond, Halcro and several other persons are enjoying!.
I think that all the Glanz/FR monolitic owners ( including me. ) read it or participated in those cartridge/tonearm alignment threads and learned ( as me ) on the whole subject but through the posts of many of those owners seems to me that almost no one learned about, even Halcro put his money in his monolitic retipping it: for what if those high distortions can't change because a retipping?
It is these kind of actions by several owners what makes no sense to me when I know that many of those persons ( including you ) want to improve the quality performance level on your system.
Let me to tell all of you cartridge monolitic owners: IMHO through those monolitics you can't ever improve nothing but to listen to higher distortions degrading and precluding any tiny single improvement you want to achieve.
This was happened just two days ago in other thread, please read it and LEARN:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1357321298&openflup&26&4#26
IMHO those Glanz/FR monolitics are the deepest aberration/error/mistake in analog, at least Audio Technica/Technics/ ( examples. ) designed its cartridge integrated designs with " systems " that permit changes in overhang and Azymuth but no offset angle.
Any one of you think that azymuth could be important for a cartridge can shows at its best?, yes?, well in the Glanz/FR you can't make any azymuth changes either!!!!!
As Dgarretson I learned on the subject and improved my self.
Nandric, I'm not a cartridge seller or a seller of any one like the ones that came years ago to this forum to gave their " teaching " to us " ignorant " people. Unfortunately some of you were so " ignorants " that today are in love with those monolitics and even with that kind of people. Nothing wrong with me, the real subject is that you monolitic owners be happy and if your monolitics are the cartridges that made the magic to put you happy then: good because this is what it matters and not my simple opinion.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
This is a response to Dover's post, back up the thread a bit, posted on the 12th. First, I was not "assert"-ing anything; after my first post on the subject, I acknowledged that the relationship between the DL103 and the MD was "rumored" and that the rumor caused some to be put off by the cost of the Magic Diamond. THAT in totality, and that alone, is what I have been repeating. THAT is not internet gossip. It is a fact. Second, I have no proof up or down that there is any relationship between the two cartridges, and I don't give a s**t one way or the other. I've repeated that ad nauseam. Third, Raul has lately stated that the relationship is in fact a real one. I don't even know if he's right, but he speaks with authority. Go argue with Raul. We've all agreed that it makes no difference to the excellence, or lack of same, of the MD.
It seems that those who are enamored of the MD, or who have paid a premium for it, cannot stand the idea that it may have been derived from a much less expensive cartridge, albeit a cartridge that is widely held to be a "giant-killer" among MCs. Can't we drop this boring subject now? Can I somehow shed this stain on my character for internet slander? Tune in tomorrow for the next episode of "Lew takes it in the ear". |
I wish one could edit one's posts on Audiogon. I forgot to mention the 4th fact point I wanted to make with Mr. Dover: In my post of January 9, I actually withdrew the assertion that there is any relationship between the two cartridges, based on my interpretation of an old thread that was entirely devoted to the subject. |
Lewm I acknowledged that the relationship between the DL103 and the MD was "rumored" Your last post on the subject on the 11th included the words - the fact that the MD was derived from the DL103 This is what I objected to. Now you change tack again on the 13th - Second, I have no proof up or down that there is any relationship between the two cartridges, and I don't give a s**t one way or the other. You should be more careful with your English. |
Dear friends: I just find out in a closet two step up transformers: Denon AU-340 and Audiocraft TS-26 ( this one in new condition. ).
I thought all my SUT's were sold but was not in that way. Well due that I have on hand I tested the Denon for a couple hours with no firm/precise conclusions yet.
Now, I post this because the specs say that the Denon should be connected to the MM stage and " see " 47kohms but I did not change the load impedance and runned the AU-340 at 100kohms:
question: is there any trouble to run it at 100k? advantages? disadvantages?
Your comments and advise will be appreciated. Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
I was always suprised, even stunned, to hear so many man stating:'my wife is the most beautiful I have ever seen'. In my native country Serbia some may even claim:'my wife is the richest I know off'. The case is that in Serbia the institution of dowry still exist. The strange thing is that the people there think that this institution is somehow connected with Greek-ortodox religion. The fact however is that those 'Serbian warriors' refused to omit any war whatever on the Balkans. The consequence was a huge shortage of marriageable young man while everybody wanted kids and grandkids. Anyway the reasons mentioned , while contradictory, were in no way obstruction for the kids production. I see some similarities with our carts preferences. Some may refer to the price the other to the beauty of the sound of their respective possession.
Regards, |
Hi everyone, I mailed Axel a cartridge (Shelter 501) for repair in September 2012. He said he received the cartridge and said the suspension needed to be repaired. I asked him to repair the cartridge. I haven't heard back from Axel since September. I sent a few more emails but no response. Has anyone else had an experience like this. Thanks. |
Hi Chopin, (any family connection?) Axel is a good friend of my so I will not comment on your implication but need to say that he hardly can manage all the work. Anyway I will write to him and ask about your Shelter.
Regards, |
Dear Dover, I am not the right person to judge Lew's English but I always enjoy his English prose. In his 'Dostojevski time' he even hesitated between literature and medicine. But regarding his post about the Magic Diamond he had, according to me, some logical problems as I already mentioned.
Regards, |
Dear Harold-not-the-barrel: I like both, the 20SS and the ML170. What the ML170/OCC gave in addition is better detail/transparency due to a little better definiton in the high frequency range this characteristic gives a different soundstage presentation where the ML170/OCC has a better layering than the 20SS.
Yes, the original cantilever is gold plated boron. Worth to rettiping?, this depends, if the 170 stylus needs then go a head but if that stylus still has a " long live " then why to retip it other that you want it to hear a different cartridge performance.
IMHO, the 180 and 170 cartridge generators are not exactly the same. Its electrical internal characteristics are a little different ( I thought were similar but I learned are not. ) and the stylus shape dimensions too.
Where the 180/OCC measure 0.08 m/m the 170ML/OCC 0.1m/m. Even the stylus angle is different: 23° for the former and 20° for the 170/OCC. Exist a difference in weight too: 7.5grs against 7.0grs in the 170/OCC.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dover, I feel like a politician. You quoted me out of context and from a post I wrote two days AFTER I retracted the putative assertion that there was a relationship between the two cartridges. (I say "putative" because I never intended to present the connection as something I personally knew to be a fact.) But I see that you can find something to damn in the way I worded that sentence, which you unfairly did not quote in its entirety. Altho it seems counter-intuitive, I want Nicola as my lawyer to represent me in this matter. |
Dear Dover, Logical and language errors are of different kind. According to me Lew's English is impeccable and even of high literary value. You are consequently wrong with your, uh, English remarcs. In this connection I need to summon an expert in, among many other subjects, the English language, our Herr Professor. He will, with his professional authority, prove that you was wrong. BTW what kind of English dialect is used in New Zealand?
Regards, |
Addendum, My first statement may need some illustration or exampel in order to 'enlighten' the difference mentioned. Two perfect English sentences can be contradictory so we have then an logical problem, while perfect sentences imply no problem at all in linguistic sense. |
Raul - if you double the input value on the MM RIAA then you will double the impedance seen by the cartridge. In the case of the AU340 the impedance seen by the cartridge is 3ohm tap 100k/(33x33) = 92ohms ( 33 is the transformer gain for this tap ) 3ohm tap 47k/(33x33) = 43ohms
40ohm tap 100k/(10x10) = 1000ohms 40ohm tap 47k/(10x10) = 470ohms
Personally I think the outcome is unpredictable because the alternate load the transformer sees could increase OR decrease ringing or resonances generated by the transformer itself, depending on it's characteristics. Similarly with the load seen by the cartridge, IME it is unpredictable.
Jonathan Carr has stressed in other posts that modern MC's are unaffected in of themselves by loading changes. His view is that what you hear when loading down MC's is the change in the performance of the following phono stage when dampening high frequency or ultrasonic resonances.
Since reading that I have been playing around with various vintage transformers and ignoring loading. What I have found triallng a variety of MC's ranging in internal impedance from 3ohm to 40ohms with different transformers seems to confirm Jonathan Carrs comments. I have found the "sound characteristics" of each transformer are consistant despite the cartridges having a range of internal impedances. I have found that I get the best results when the gain structure is optimised with the following phono stage and power amp regardless of load. This may be due to using tube phono stages and preamps which may have an optimum volume position. |
Dear Dover/friends: Thank you. I just tested the Denon AU-340 for only 2 hours with my Spectral ( 2ohm/0.2mv ) and the sound was " so so " ( I'm using the SUT 3ohm tap. ) against my active phonolinestage.
Looking to its specs this Denon SUT measure high, it has a wide frequency response ( a characteristic that IMHO is way important especially on SUTs. ): 10hz to 120khz +,- 0.5db/1.0db and its THD is only 0.05%.
It is very user friendly because we can choose between that 3ohm or 40ohm taps ( different gain. ) and has two inputs for two different cartridges. Obviously has a front panel selectror for those inputs and additional a " pass " position.
I already started modification in the AU-340: I'm rewiring right from the input/output transformers with Silver KCAG by KimberKable, I'm connecting directly the output cable ( no more RCA output connector. ) soldering from the SUT board with the Silver cable by Analysis Plus, I'm changing the two inputs RCA connectors with WBT Silver Gen and obviously rewiring the two input wires for that Silver KimberKable.
I think today the up date will be finished and then I will test it. I'm sure there will be a differences for the better because looking inside the wires Denon used was plain zip lamp cord and RCA connectors certainly are not the WBT kind and by-passing the output connectors means more music and less distortions.
We will see, I will share my experiences about.
In the other side the Audiocraft SUT ( new unit in box. ) is a beauty from inside out as everything any product with the Audiocraft " name ". That's what we expect from Audiocraft. Right now I will be in focus with the Denon.
Here you can read something about:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/denon/au-340.shtml
Dover, additional to your kindness information I asked here is a good article on that subject:
http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-and-mc-cartridges.shtml
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Chopin, Your cart was very difficult to repair so Axel needed some time to think about some solution, put your cart aside and forget about. He will try to repair the cart(suspension) as soon as possible and post your cart to you. Thanks to you I was able to ask also about my Kiseki and I am glad with his answer(s) for both of us.
Regards, |
Hi Nandric, Thank you sir for your help. |
Dear Dover/friends: Maybe any one could ask: why me that always is against SUTs wants to test it again?.
Well, the at random finding at my place of those SUTs give me the opportunity to test it and to make something that I never try it: the SUT up to date.
I owned and heard a lot of SUTs in my system and in other systems.
I can remember some of them. From Audio Technica: At630, AT7000, AT1000, etc. from Ortofon: T30, T2000,T3000,T5000,etc. Luxman 8020/8030. Denon 320,HA1000, Pionner headamp. Two different Audio Note Kondo's. Expressive Technologies. Highphonic. Dynavector DV6 ( or something. Classe NIL3 headamp. I owned 2-3 vintage SUT's by USA designers that I can´t remember. Bent Audio and many many more.
In no one but the NIL3 I made any single up date.
I don't know what I will hear when the Denon AU-340 be finished. I know will be an improvement, question is: how much improvement over the stock one and if it could be competitive against my active phonolinepreamp? maybe a good surprise/discovery?
As always, is time to learn!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul, Caution the specs say there is a 4K load on secondary winding so Dovers example above is not correct that I can see. Is there a resistor on the outputs of the Denon?
The whole thing with SUTs is to know the impedance of the cart to know what load it wants to see then wire accordingly. If you don't do this you may be shooting in the wind.
It's been awhile since playing with SUTs so above may not be accurate. Dover if I am wrong please correct.
You may want to play with Dave Slagle's spreadsheet here to see what is actually going on. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/99/996779.html
|
I have mistaken load and output impedance but hopefully you get the idea. Please ignore previous post if it's posted in order after moderators approval. Point being not all cart matching to SUTs are plug and play. |
Raul,
I know your plate is full but you do need to find time to mount the DTL-4S.
Quote from TurntableNeedles.com "• very close to PICKERING NEEDLES D4500S D7500S STEREOHEDRON STEREO HEDRON"
It did take a while for the suspension to settle, but I do agree with their statement. In addition to the TL-3 body, it also sounds just as wonderful on a gold body XV-15. Regards, Don
|
Raul - I did similar mods to a Denon AU320, and to be honest it didn't help much. There are much better transformers than those. The best I have is a pair of matched Altec 4629 microphone input transformers strapped for maximum gain, cartridge sees about 30/50ohms. They have wider bandwidth and 50% better noise rejection than the Altec 4722 ( which is very good with the Denon 103D ). The 4629 is the same as the 4665 but has leadout wires for hardwiring and eliminates the need for octal sockets. I wouldn't give any time to any of your list apart from maybe the Expressive. |
Dear Dover: I can't say nothing at all till I finish the up date and hear it.
I owned the 320 that was the Denon " entry level ", very different from the 340 look: the 320 weight was only 700grs and the 340 over 2.0kgs. Different transformer.
Altec?, well maybe you are right but I'm not looking for SUTs only that the opportunity came alone.
What's clear to me with the Denon AU-340 is that is dead silence with my Spectral 0.2mv and this is a good point in its favor. In two-three days I will have a more precise opinion on my mods.
If the 340 " works " maybe I will build a pair of " monoblock " SUTs, who knows: seems to me is not a " big deal " but care and choosed parts. Maybe I'm wrong??
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Ecir38: Thank's for your advise. Btw, the Denon has no resistors at all.
As you said I will " play " with the spreadsheet.
Thank you again.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
my Thoughts on MC loading is going to be vary different then what everyone thinks it should be for low distortion etc..
Raul and everyone.. there are a few things that need to be done when loading a MC cartridge properly ...one is if your using a SUT for example if your cartridge has 5 ohms of DC resistance as you load down your secondary of the transformer and approach its impedance (5 ohms) the lower the distortion it will be in all ranges!...this is contrary to the 10X rules of what we have been told for lowest amount of distortion ...also MC cartridges require a RC filter after the proper loading start with a 5k in series and start with 1000pf in parallel more capacitance in parallel will flatten the rising response of the mc... this must be done to fully appreciate what each MC cartridge can do ...
just my thoughts give it a shot..
Lawrence Fidelity Forward |
my Thoughts on MC loading is going to be vary different then what everyone thinks it should be for low distortion etc..
Raul and everyone.. there are a few things that need to be done when loading a MC cartridge properly ...one is if your using a SUT for example if your cartridge has 5 ohms of DC resistance as you load down your secondary of the transformer and approach its impedance (5 ohms) the lower the distortion it will be in all ranges!...this is contrary to the 10X rules of what we have been told for lowest amount of distortion ...also MC cartridges require a RC filter after the proper loading start with a 5k in series and start with 1000pf in parallel more capacitance in parallel will flatten the rising response of the mc... this must be done to fully appreciate what each MC cartridge can do ...
just my thoughts give it a shot..
Lawrence Fidelity Forward |
Ecir38 - no - I'm right. The step up ratio's are 1:10 ( 40ohm input ) and 1:33 ( 3 ohm input ). You divide the preamp input impedance by the square of the step up ratio to calculate the load seen by the cartridge. There is no 4k resistor as Raul said - this is just the output impedance of the transformer itself. The published spec is for a 50k input which just means that the specs are as tested for a 50k preamp input resistance. |
Raul, Thanks for your detailed AT-ML180/170 info. Glad to hear they are even better than AT20´s in detail and transparency. Exotic cantilever design: gold plating adds mass but stiffens the rod which may be hollow. No, I really don´t want a different performance (modern retipping). I couln´t resist to buy one cheap ML170 from Japan. The seller says the cantilever is perfectly straight and not off-axis. If he´s honest I have grabbed a bargain ;) I´ll keep searching for ML180 too which is probably the best MM Audio-Technica ever made. Time has passed since you started this research and you have found so many great MM´s. Please describe to us all your stellar carts of today. Does the ML180 still belong to those, or even the ML170 ? |
Regarding SUTs we should keep in mind it is a matching process. Two spools should meet each other in a well balanced way. Nevertheless I have found out with my 16 SUTs (last one is a WE 618B from 1940) that you need testing every SUT with the carts you are going for. Some among us are going for crazy ratios when rebuilding line trafos for analogue SUTs. I would not recommend this. This field is a real testing area but on a basis of given specs! |
Harold,etc., I am also curious about AT Ml 180/170. I own the AT 180 but also the Signet TK 9CL and E. To me the AT 180 sounds better while Signet is assumed to be to top of the AT line. So my quess is that AT 180 is made later. BTW my Signets have beryllium cantilevers while the AT 180 has gold plated boron cantilever.
Regards, |
Larry, I know from reading information on the Jensen transformer website that a small RC network can improve the flatness of the frequency response when one is using a SUT, but can you defend your apparent statement that a cartridge with a 5R internal resistance should optimally "see" a 5R impedance looking into the phono stage? This would do two very bad things: (1) you lose a lot of gain from an already very lo-gain signal, and (2) your high frequency response goes into the toilet. How do you get around that?
The 1:10 recommended ratio of output Z to input Z is not just idiosyncratic. |
Hello Lewm, you should never assume anything... especially if you do not know :)
electrically speaking there will be no FR change with cartridge loading R....if there is... it may have to do with your phono not have much or no feedback giving it feedback!... and also it maybe doing something to dampen your tonearm ..it is complicated... the only thing that you can do to lower distortion (fact)is lower the phono input R every cartridge will be different because of its inherent DC Resistance and or impedence and when you get to that "magic" R just after that.... lowering it further you will notice loss of output and midrange suckout
further after the proper loading is complete then you can add the a R of 5k and C must experiment..this will flatten your FR
some more thoughts..if you rely on exaggerations and or a tip up in FR because your electronics or speakers are limited.... it my sound like you have less air or duller etc..this is why I have always been on the (don't limit our speakers electronics etc FR) ban-wagon get stuff that will not limit it in any way...
I abide by what Mr Robert Fulton did and am trying to carry on what he had done!
Lawrence Fidelity Forward |
8 Reasons not to load a MC transformer - Loading the secondary of a transformer can induce ringing. Loading the secondary of a transformer will move the transformer out of its intended operating parameters. For example Rauls AU340 has been designed to run into a 50k load. By altering this you are now putting a load in front of the transformer that it is not designed for. It could be introducing more distortion ( from ringing ) Loss of information from the added resistance Introduction of phase anomalies Increase risk of noise from the reduced output ( voltage ) Unless you have the appropriate measuring equipment, you have no idea what altering the intended loading is doing to the signal. According to Jonathan Carr, a respected cartridge designer, modern moving coil cartridges do not need to be loaded down. My advice - get a decent phono stage that doesn't overload at high frequencies. As for the rising high frequencies on MC's - try one of these : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_QgHfUgWQw |
Dear Dover, I try to discrimante between 'reasons' and 'causes'. We reason the nature does not. But by those 8 reasons you mentioned you should also mention the 'Murphy's law' (grin). That, I think, is the reason so many of us are, say, sceptical about the SUT's. |
Raul Now that I'm back from some sun ,fun and surf I just noticed your comments of 01-03-13. I agree with you and Halcro,CTO517 and others regarding a stripped nude approach ,the dds that I experimented with were very sensitive to what they were coupled to. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this sometime ago on Halcros nude thread. Strike me down however I believe in the camp of a rigid continuous loop of the Lp ,cartridge ,arm ,platter and bearing wrapped up in a inert extremely dense material like b-25 panzerholz. Resonance test values were highly favorable compared to testing of other materials commonly used for feed back control. Agree or not my panzer plinth design worked very well for this application however it was only used on a couple of Technics sp-10s mk2, a Denon dp80 and a kenwood 990 X frame all built to use pivoting arm boards. Obviously I did not take these projects as far as some pro audio builders and I know there is onlyso much you can sqeeze out of them. In a nut shell switching the same arm boards, arms and cartridges on all the tables ,the Denon was the clear winner back then.
Primitive back yard antics to some I guess however hearing is believing. For me this sonic revelation started with a vintage Technics dd mounted in a b-15 panzerholz plinth directly comparing to a new 6 month old $17,000.00 table , same arm board, arm and cartridge the SP10mk2 immediately killed it, this was hard to wrap my mind around, why. I was told the motors or motor controller of this German table were possibly defective from the factory, maybe. Member Dev had also noticed problems. Mine were realized as tonal, most likely by inconsistent speed.
Retail $17,000.00 VS a little over $300.00 complete with my first dd table,including electronic refresh ,panzerholz plinth material and cabinet shop time with helpful direction and machine use. My experiences are comparitive to this thread in a way though above that these experiences have put me on a better path in this hobby.
Timeltel a friend with a speaker project will have remnants left that I will see you get some if your still interested by the spring, nude or plinth it makes for a interesting and fun project.
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Dear Larry, I comprehend one or two sentences in your reply to my questions, but much of it I do not get.
Let's take this paragraph: "electrically speaking there will be no FR change with cartridge loading R....if there is... it may have to do with your phono not have much or no feedback giving it feedback!... and also it maybe doing something to dampen your tonearm ..it is complicated... the only thing that you can do to lower distortion (fact)is lower the phono input R every cartridge will be different because of its inherent DC Resistance and or impedence and when you get to that "magic" R just after that.... lowering it further you will notice loss of output and midrange suckout"
Pull out your statement that there will be no FR change with cartridge loading R. That one is contrary not only to theory but to my direct experience, but it does happen only when you get down to very low load Rs (in other words, high load; the semantics are confusing). And my phono stage(s) use no NFB. Anyway, we are not talking about distortion, which you go on to mention, but FR only. Now, the bottom half of that para does make sense to me, and I agree with it; lowering R to the point just ABOVE which one experiences a loss of output is an approved way to select the load resistance. But for a cartridge with a 5R internal resistance, that value will always be considerably higher than a 5R load on the phono side. Don't you think? I do. That's the only thing you originally wrote with which I took issue.
I have the feeling that I may have misunderstood you in the first place as regards your statement on loading. I have noticed that where SUTs are concerned, you are not the only one who departs from convention where the relationship between output and input impedances are concerned. I have read here and on VA that some use surprisingly low net input Z with a SUT to get "the best" sound out of their Denon DL103s or variants thereof. I have no experience, either of using a SUT or of the Denon (though I have had a broken DL103 in my closet for the past 25 years).
With reference to the latter part of your response, that's like being in favor of motherhood and apple pie. I would be foolish and coarse not to agree with your concluding remarks. And heaven knows I am none of those things. |
Dear Comrade,
IIRC, you also have one of Axel's AKG P 8ES Super Nova Vhd's. I don't feel it has taken over the top spot in my arsenal but it definitely runs with the pack. I just replaced the Azden YM P50VL on my table with the AKG and once again, I'm quite impressed. I don't recall you ever mentioning your opinion of how it performs. I must say, I do like mine. What is your thoughts ref. the AKG. Regards, Don |
Does anyone know what's happened to Dgarretson, only I've been trying to contact him to no avail?
As always... |
Dear comrade,While I have no idea what 'IIRC' means I assume that you are addressing me? I still own the P8 ES Super Nova and 25 MD MK II. The AKG invented an very interesting construction but the stylus suspension was very shabby designed and executed. A thin metal plate with a kind of rubber piece in the middle in which the cantilever was/is fastened. This 'rubber piece' dry out as function of time and light. It is nearly impossible to get good styli for either series (25MD, mk II was the latest). My frustration about the styli is not a good 'base' for an objective valuation. I would say 'equal' with Stanton 881S. BTW I never posted any of my AKG's to Axel. I don't like to spend my money on something that I don't like.
With companionable greetings, |
Addendum, to give some impression about the 'place' of the AKG P-8 ES here is my ranking of my MM carts: Glanz M5, AT 180, Stanton 981, Signet 9CL, 9E, Glanz 31L, Stanton 881s/ AKG P-8 ES/ AKG 25 MD mkII. My previous other I have sold. |
Regards Nandric, Glad to see the AT-ML180 being "higher" than the Signet in your system. Please reveal your TT/arm. |
Dear Dover and SUT friends: Well time to report my first experiences after the whole Denon AU-340 up date.
The overall quality performance level against stock condition was and is " night and day ".
Yes, it is a lot better that what I was " waiting ". I'm testing it with the Spectral and Lyra DaCapo ( Axel's retiped. ).
First thing is that there is no single noise of any kind even that these cartridges use the 31db of SUT gain position.
Has very good tonal balance top to bottom with a " surprising " very good handle at both extremes and with a dynamic response that was unexpected for me.
Sound is clear, pristine and with very good overall transparency, transientes too are really fast and the SUT has very good stage layering with solid focus.
I'm very pleased with what I'm experienced through this Denon SUT.
Am I losting something against my active phonolinepream?:
just after the Denon up date I heard higher distortions that after 10 hours fortunately vanished and right now I'm unaware of that because I can't hear it.
the quality performance is so good that two " golden ears " audio friends that know very well my system not noted that what they were listening was an audio signal coming from the SUT. When I disclose it they were " surprised ".
well obviously that I know better my system than them, we made some tests with the SUT against the active unit and again here they concluded what I already did it:
even that the SUT both extremes frequency response are very good the active phonolinepreamp does a better job: the bass as the highs have more " air " and better and precise definition but you can note this only through a comparison against to what IMHO is a top top active phonolinepreamp performer.
obviously that this Denon SUT took has some advantages in my system: first is that the MM stage IMHO is second to none and second that the line stage IMHO is second to none too. Maybe in other audio systems this updated SUT can't shows the same performance level.
I'm a " rookie " with SUTs and SUTs mods. This first experience likes me and I will try to follow in this " road " to learn more about.
Thank you all for your learning posts ( please go on!. ), I can tell you that even if one of your advises goes against the " rules " I will try it anyway. I just want to learn trying to find out something " new ".
This starting experiences are very different to the one Dover had when he made it a " similar " ( his words . ) update to his AU-320 but this entry level unit is different from the 340 and in the other side I think that in those " updated old times " some items to the update not even exist as: WBT Nexgen Ag or Analisys Plus Silver Oval ICs. Maybe only the KCAG Silver KimberKable was in the market. Btw, only one pair of those WBT Nexgen connectors has a higher price than the AU320 Dover talked..
Anyway, I think that I'm on " something " and I want to discovery how good is that " something ".
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Harold,etc., To answer your question I am in danger to admit that Fleib was right regarding my suitability for the capitalist system. I own two systems. In my main system I use the Kuzma Stabi Reference with the Reed 2a, 12'' with Miybi standard and Triplanar VII with Benz LPS. Both tonearms have fast headshells and this fact I used as excuse to instal a second system in my bedroom with a SP10 mkII and one of my FR-64S tonearms with removable headshell as recommended by Henry. I also own 7 different headshells all of which are provided with an preadjusted cart. This way I can change carts as fast as I ever dreamed regarding the ladies. I need about 3 minutes to switch carts. At the moment I use my new acquired Magic diamond in this system and have some moral dilemmas with this cart. I feel like a kid with (very) rich parents who give him a Stradivari for his birthday. Ie I know that there are many other 'kids' with much more talent than I have. The cart is the best I have ever heard but I would feel much better if, say, Raul, Lew,Henry, Dover, Thuchan, etc. would take the responsibility to value and describe this cart. If I was as rich as those imagined parents of my I would buy for each of them this cart. Alas I am not as rich and I would not even dream to lend my Magic even to Thuchan. BTW my excuse to my comrade Don that I forget his (aka my) Goldring G 800. In my ranking this cart belongs in the row with Stanton 881s.
Regards,
|
Hi Nandric,
IIRC = If I Recall/Remember Correctly
Happy New Year! |
Comrade Nadric,
Axel was buying up the supply of used AKG P8's and rebuilding them, then selling the refurbished cartridges on the web. I got mine from him that way. I had thought that you also had gotten yours from him (rebuilt). I'm having trouble with the dreaded sssssssssss. Even with the Mint LP set-up device, it's still rears its ugly head on certain records. I was susprised when the Goldring G800 was not listed in your reply. Nice to know it's still in the running. Mine having the Beryllium cantiliver has raised its position even with the 991's. My Astatic MF100 just edges it out. Very close though. Regards, Don |
Thanks C1ferrari, This reminds me of the French writer who put this phrase in the mouth of some nouveau riche who hired a teacher to learn him about the proper conduct with aristocracy: 'My Gosh I speak prosa my whole life without knowing that.I am very thankful to you to have learned me that.' At present I ask my self this question nearly every day. Happy New Year ! |
Nandric- You right inglish reel good for having lirned it such a short distance ;-) |
Dgob, My apologies, I was away at CES last week and in recovery most of this one. I just sent you all I know about Vel DD-15 mods. |
Swampwalker, With your sense for humour you must be a German. |