Dear Lewm: What you posted could happen again. Day by day I'm on the hunting to discover ( maybe/perhaps. ) NCG samples.
The 550ML comes with the same 440 berillium cantilever and with a better stylus shape: line contact against the MicroLine AT on the 550. I think that in the worst case the 550ML must performs at the same level than the 440 and not at lower level.
In the other side, I'm not trying to convince you on anything I'm only posting a good alternative as I posted " hundreds " more through this thread years. People pull the triger on what each one wants and nothing else.
Lewm, why any owner of the Ortofon A-90 pulled the triger for the Ortofon Anna?, IMHO because they are looking for the ultimate cartridge level.
Anyway, I will follow posting my findings/experiences on MM/MI/LOMC cartridges.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul, I also would like to know the answer to Lewm's question. Just for reference, The NRG is better, to you, than the PRG (previous reference generation), or just another very good cartridge? My MM/Mi list is getting longer, actually way past ridiculous, but we Knight's of the Turntable seek the Grail.
Bring me a shrubbery! |
Dear Lewm: ++++ " or you will audition the 550 and find it to be not quite as good as the 440. You have a perfect right to do that, and indeed we know you will do that, it's in your nature. " +++++
I always try to share the experiences I had and how were those experiences. If in the case of the 550ML things happen that the 440 is better ( I doubt. ) then that will be what I will post.
Btw, I sold one of my AKG P100LE and keep it a< second sample. That time I was not so " stupid " that when I sold my one and only Technics P100CMK4, fortunately three weeks latter I put my hands on it from the person I sold it: I was lucky to recovered.
+++++ " I am quite confident that there will be another "game-changing" cartridge within a month..... " +++++
no doubt about. Maybe that " game-changing " cartridge could be the Astatic MF-2500 that I'm waiting to arrive and if not this one is for sure there will be other ones prety soon. Such is " life ".
Lewm, what do you want? that fun disappears?, not me.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Acman3: First I want to have the same nomenclature you or other persons could use, I have no preference.
What do you prefer, which makes more sense?: " New Cartridge Generation " or " New Reference Generation "?
my take is that we can have a " reference " level on both generation of cartridges: the Past ones and the New ones, so maybe " New cartridge Generation " could differentiate in better way.
My answer is yes the NCG outperform the PCG. I have to say that my AKG P100LE has one channel down and I can't listen it till is fixed.
Now, the Ortofon MC2000 and Dyna 13D belongs to the NCG but the Astatic and the Virtuoso NO and the P100CMK4 is in doubt right now. Of course that IMHO you or any one else could think that I have to test again every single cartridge I tested to know at which cartridge geneartion belongs, certainly I can't but believe or not I know what I post about.
Yes, I know that for some of you the cartridges or cartridge where you are sticked is all about but then exist other persons like me that like to make " trips " to the " adventure " to the " unknow "cartridge world and sometimes we have rewards like the Precept one.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul,
"Now, the Ortofon MC2000 and Dyna 13D belongs to the NCG but the Astatic and the Virtuoso NO"
I thought I understood your NCG/PCG definitions but with your statement of the Virtuoso as not being NCG, now I'm confused? It is still in production. What is "it" that makes it a PCG? BTW, what is the difference b/t the Percept 220 and a Percept 220XE? Regards, Don |
Raul, Whatever terminology you chose is fine with me. Thanks for the response. You answered what I was asking.
I guess I am up for another adventure with King Raul and the Knights of the Turntable.
What is the wing speed of an unladen swallow? |
If one is still in 'the game', the cost of a precept 220 + 550 stylus can hardly be beat. I considered it last week when, like Lew, I searched around after the burning bush made his pronouncement on the 440. But then I looked at all my other neglected cartridges and thought better of it. Unless one has Raul's ambition and energy, I figure it's best enjoy vicariously from the sidelines. |
Acman3, African or European swallow?
Just as importantly will it be the gorge of eternal peril for any who cannot name their favorite cartridge? |
As if guided by a Ouija board I just ordered a used Precept 220 body from Witsolutions and a 550ML stylus from Lpgear. The mechanics of PayPal echoed the muscular twitching of a corpse, as mentioned somewhere in Joyce. After purchasing fifteen or so MM/MIs, I certify that this is my last one-- unless shown to be superior to Grace F9 with Soundsmith OCL ruby stylus and Acutex M320III STR. In that case the bar is raised. |
Raul, I did not mean to reproach you for your behavior. You are just being you, the Casanova of phono cartridges. Love 'em and leave 'em. It's cool, and I agree it's fun.
As you know, I don't always love the same ones you love, so that is another factor I have to consider when choosing to follow after you. Mostly, we have disagreed on relative rankings, not on what's very good and what's not. |
Raul & friends, Evolution is gaining speed very fast now. The PRECEPT PC550ML, one of the brightest stars on AudiogoN Universe and TERMINATOR the mighty air bearing linear tracker will soon join their forces. This will be the turning point in History, inevitable change in evolution.
Dave the Messenger will enlighten all of us. A new fascinating Era is arising. |
Dear Raul, Lew is teasing you , one may also say 'nag' you. He likes (theoretical) disputes. We all are of course thankful for your indefatigable search and results. Thanks to you we know what to look for and, as far as I know, no one was ever disapointed. Anyway the most MM carts I bought are your recommendation. I am in some sense 'on my own' with LOMC's but that is because my phono-pre (Basis Exclusive) is more suitable for the MC carts. Qua adjustment possibilities that is. I even installed an second system with the FR-64 (removable headshell) in order to (more easelly) test all those carts I purchased. And I am certainly curious for the next 'tallest John'. Ie I also like to tease.
Kind regards, |
Well I guess I'm lucky, as I bought the NCG 25 years ago. 22 years ago the NCG was PCG for me as I acquired 2 OMG's. I say to Raul keep on going, keep up the good work, so far I've saved $1000's. I hope Raul can get to my OMG before I expire so I can RIP.
|
Dear comrade Don, The words are very important for those who want to stay whithin the bondaries of the party line. This is however not the case in the West. That's why we so often hear the expression:' what do you mean?' Raul simply invented this expression to convince himself that he is after something totally different now... He was probable succesful by his wife and extended the strategy to our forum.
Regards, |
Hi Raul on 12-08-10 you wrote here on audiogon this: "That one was the one Precept cartridge I owned but I sold it maybe because did not give me " emotions ". Did you now feel the emotions with the precept 440 or is it "only" the cartridge which makes nothing wrong? and how can we find out if the PC 110 has the same motor as PC440, PC220. I only found one sentence in a hifi forum that ML 550 stylus on PC440 sounds better as ML550 on PC 220 . For me it looks like on the stylii were different. but I look for the solid evidence.
PC 220 and PC 400 get rare no on the market.
Regards, Knut |
Timeltel, Time for me to reevaluate cartridge electrical parameters. I've come to think you were right concerning output impedance. Turns out, the PC110E is a high inductance cart, 1050mH. I've been looking at that PCN550ML stylus for awhile, and Raul threw me a curve when he thought it was a 120/440 type. It fits the AT-10 and 11. The plug probably fits the the AT-12 through 20, but some plastic trim is necessary for 15/20, I'm not sure about the rest.
I don't know if the PC-440 or 550 have the same inductance, it would seem odd with response to 45K, which makes me wonder that the 220 and 440 generators are the same. Maybe they both have less inductance than the 110E, but the 220 is an XE (.2 x .7), the same with a different tip?
I've come to think that 100K loading is the difference. How else could one add 300pF to preamp + cables on a high inductance cart? I'm awaiting the 550 stylus, but I don't care about the Precept body. I'm sure that for my purpose, loaded at 47K, there are a number of better choices with < 550 ohm impedance, including the 15/20. series. The best AT stylus I've heard is a beryllium/ML. I had a 152ML on a AT-440 and it turned a screech into music, like magic. I suspect the same on the 15/20SS. The shibata is nice, the ML resolves.
I had a theory about high inductance, that it was used instead of some mechanical damping which causes phase nonlinearities. Because of tracking considerations, I don't know how much damping could be reduced.
Raul, thanks for your straightforward reports of results. I don't see this as flavor of the month. It seems to me your choices are constitent with performance, even if the inductance of the Precepts seems strange. I'm glad MCs are now in the mix. They were overdue.
Regards, |
Dear friends: I don't want that could exist a misunderstood about this NCG niche against the PCG one.
All the cartridges that we own and like that were in the PCG area are still very good performers by its self merits and the NCG ones does not devalued in anyway those top performance merits.
As Nandric posted ( thank's. ) I only want to make a clear difference between " new " cartridges that as its predecesors are top performers with a grade of overall " refinements " that puts its performance quality nearer to the live music, a refinement that we can't hear in precise and clear way against the PCG and that we can't be aware of it if we don't compare it against any of the NCG cartridges.
Even that we are talking here of " refinements " these ones are significant because the PCG samples are top performers very hard to beat or improve over its perfromance level: well the NCG samples did it but not because there is more bass or better highs but the overall performance that puts us nearer to the music in a different way a different " experience " as maybe almost no one experienced before.
As better your audio system and audio system set up as more rewarded will be the NCG experiences.
I'm convinced about that " the better audio system.... ". I know for sure that today the cartridge is not a limitation to achieve the " bets " quality performance level in each one audio system but the audio system it self. Tha's why I always be thinking how to improve the system resolution the system distortions. This subject IMHO is and most be our first audio system target.
I put a lot of my " energy " trying to improve as a whole my audio system. I put more interest there than about ther cartridge or TTs. at the end each one audio system is the tool where everything happen!!!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Precept's advocates: My wide experiences with the AT ML stylus on top of the line cartridges in the AT catologue made me think that the ML one in the 550 could make a difference for the better over the LC in the 440 and the elliptical in the 220. Btw, this one is really good cartridge and as the 440 IMHO there is no resemblance with AT/Signet cartridges.
The ML came in the 180 OCC and in the Signet line there is only one model with the latest MicroLine AT stylus: TK10MLMK2 that against the MK1 is just better.
We will see.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear friends: I forgot. Now that the ATMLX150 reviewer and Timeltel speak on the difficult to get the right cartridge set up on VTA/SRA and the like I think that that kind of cartridges are the ones " easy " to set up and not the difficult ones.
The Precept PC440 is for me a difficult cartridge to set up, why?: bceause and trhough my experiences with it does not matters changes in VTF or VTA/SRA or even in overhang the cartridge refused to sounds bad/wrong. Almost always sounds fine, so we have to have a great care/ knowledge and skillful to determine which set up is the " right " one. So, if when you are making the Precept set up and likes what you are hearing that's not enough IMHO you need to re-set and find out what tell you the new set up: this excersice one and again as in no other cartridge I can remember.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
|
Dear friends: My SUT?s adventure made it try to find out the " best " out there and if I can try to improve it.
Well, I'm only at the begining of this adventure but the " rewards " that showed me the Denon AU-340 and the Audiocraft TS-26 told me that I'm on the " road " ( I don't know if in the right road but in a good road. ).
I just found out one of the best SUT ever and I'm refering to the Denon AU-1000 that I knew of its existence but that in the old times I never had the kind of money to buy it. In 1983 its Japan price was: 150,000 Yens, expensive.
If we take a look to its frequency response chart in the link we could know why that price and know the Denon high quality design.
The SUT is absolutely flat from: 9hz to 95khz, this is an evy for any tube amp or tube electronics and some SS electronics but the unit is only -3db at 5hz and 200khz !!, these figures in my experiences are outstanding by any standards for a SUT.
http://www.denon.jp/jp/museum/products/au1000.html
Of course that those figures don't tell me how it performs but gives me calm and tranquility that the unit is first rate and IMHO second to none.
We will see when I test it before and after my usual up-dates.
If any one of you have experiences with the Denon AU-1000 and wants to share with us that will be appreciated.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Clearaudio question: I wasn't paying much attention during the weeks of Virtuoso adulation. Sorry. I just gritted my teeth, knowing it would pass. So which version was beloved, the wood or the other? I realize an Axel or other "refresh" is de rigeur for max delight. Thx. |
Raul: Not sure we're on the same page. The cart that gave me a run for the money was the AT ML150 OCC/Soundsmith ruby-optimised LC stylus. Anyone who thinks you just slap this one on a tonearm and calls it done has no idea what they're talking about. Peter Ledermann advised it would be demanding to set up, he was right.
Either check your facts and name the referred-to cartridge and stylus correctly, or accept my apologies for reading your post wrongly.
Bye. |
Timeltel: Never mind, not important. Sorry to use your moniker for an example.
R. |
Rauliruegas. re SUT's you may want to check out the Stevens and Billington TX-103, out of the UK. While specs only tell part of the story, it does seem to be to be pushing the envelope of performance. They are in curent production with either copper or silver windings. Unfortunately they are expensive things with either option. |
Dear Lew, I bought two Virtuoso's (black) on the German ebay for cheap. Both were without stylus. Then I asked Axel to provide one with my (beloved) aluminum/line contact and boron /super elliptical for the other. When comparing them I was not able to hear any difference. Raul was very suprised and probable thought: exactly what I thought about this Balkanes... But I overlooked the fact that the suspension was also, uh, 'refreshed'. After about 20 hours of 'break in' I was well able to hear the difference. The boron 'version' was faster , more dynamic and more extended in high frequency. I was suprised with the last mentioned 'fact' because I am not able to hear anything above 11 Khz. I never deed anything with or for my bones but, if I am well informed, they may explain this 'wonder'. Anyway they (my bones) certainly need some exercise. However I also discovered that my Glanz M5, AT 180, Signet 9 Cl, Stanton 981 and Glanz 31 L are better carts. That is to say 'better for my testes'. So I sold both with a strange result: I got more for the aluminum- then the boron version.
Regards, |
****Anyway they (my bones) certainly need some exercise. However I also discovered that my Glanz M5, AT 180, Signet 9 Cl, Stanton 981 and Glanz 31 L are better carts. That is to say 'better for my testes****
Apparently, one bone in particular ;-)
Regards. |
Dear Frogman, I wish 'it' was a bone.
Regards, |
Regards, Fleib: Hagerman Technologies has a good page on loading, a calculator that's fun to play with. MM/MC & SUTs. http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html"The larger the inductance, or larger the capacitance, the lower the resonant frequency will be. Indeed, it can easily show up in the audio band, even under common conditions". Can we agree that MM cartridges have an electrical peak at "somewhere" between 5-10k followed by a roll-off which is potentially addressed through mechanical resonances, loading or damping? Output impedance is the opposition to a particular frequency as a result of resistance, inductance and capacitance. Would it be beyond consideration that this statement might be interpreted instead as a relative increase of apparency at other frequencies? "Playing" with the HagTech & VE calculators shows a resonant peak in the 15k region when output impedance approaches 1k Ohms at typical loading levels. Plug a few lower figures into either calculator and you'll see resonant peaks approaching (or exceeding) 20kHz. A visit to the HagTech page is suggested. Can I go out on a limb (not too far) and propose a relationship exists between speed of sound transference through a material and it's resonance? Here's a publication from Kliptz: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NVQujPOPx2c/TKt748ZHqhI/AAAAAAAATBI/YTLvChGlKsg/s1600/DFH%2B%28dragged%29%2B1.jpg with some handy figures. Other than tip mass, a little consideration of these interactions may give insight as to why some prefer one cantilever build, or inductance/impedance characteristics over another. Let's not forget stylus profile, a subtle but self-evident consideration in how one describes cartridge voicing. It might be appropriate to consider this in a systems capacity. What I hear relative to tonearm resonance, amp damping, ICs & etc. may be a different animal compared to what you hear, same cart but different rig. To inch a little further out on that limb, system ungrades reveal these differences in cart voicing, matching becomes more a factor. Lots of discussion concerning the hf performance of low inductance carts, why should output impedance be any lesser a consideration? Peace, |
Dear Richardkrebs: Thank's for your advise. Certainly my money resources are limited. I decided yo bought some vintage well regarded SUTs to achieve experiences from them and that's what I'm doing.
In this starting " new " audio adventure I only tested two SUTs that I modified for an up-date, the Denonn and Audiocraft, but there are in " line " the: Entré, WE, Peerles and that Denon AU-1000. So right now maybe to many " toys " and I will need time to make my research and decide about.
When I finished then I think I could go with today top options as the ones you mentioned.
We all know that almost always exist something better of everything and I'm aware of.
Thank you for your advice, appreciated.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Indieroehre: Absolutely, the Precept PC440 has the " sensitivity " to communicate the deepest emotion music can develop in your whole " body ".
My Precept has not only that delicate characteristic of the music but its power and natural agresiveness.
The PC110 has different electrical characteristics that seems to me makes a different cartridge motor against the 220/440, example: it has 4.6mv output level against 4.2mv on its brothers.
Regards and enjoy the nmusic, R. |
Dear friends: More and more rare and hard to find out, this is a good opportunity:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Astatic-MF-200H-Moving-Flux-Cartridge-Headshell-Combo-w-Display-Case-/121058635527?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c2fa82f07
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
hi to Raul and all precept fans. LPgear made just a refund for me. 550ml stylus is sold out. no chance. I was too late. so I am out of the game- for now. regards |
Precept PC440 alert!! http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=300855088888
Good luck!
1/31/2013 22: 14 |
Another good opportunity:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Precept-by-Audio-Techica-PC-220-Cartridge-with-extra-NOS-Stylus-/181071652099?pt=US_Record_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item2a28b62503
R. |
Hi Timeltel, No. Assuming Hagtech electrical resonance actually shows up in the measured response, is wrong. Yes, it does have the affect of lowering hf resonance, but nowhere near those calculated values. Others thought there was 180o phase shift at electrical resonance. That's wrong too. It's the mechanical performance that is the overwhelming determinate of resonance fr. Virtually all carts have a naturally rising high end. It's a combination of electrical and mechanical design and damping, that determines fr response. There's an interesting Ortofon paper, it was in VE, on the imaging capabilities of MC vs MM. They measured phase nonlinearities and fr resp. The plots are pretty conclusive that electrical resonance causes neither primary resonance or phase shift. It may influence response other than lowering resonance fr, but that's unclear. It can't be determined from the plots. Many high inductance carts are "mellow", maybe that works with an AT generator? The speed of sound through different materials has nothing to do with this. The stylus/cantilever is mechanically reacting to the groove, not a sound pressure wave. Eff tip mass would determine transient response and influence detail. Cantilever material influences character. I don't understand all the aspects on performance of inductance and impedance. I always looked for low inductance and thought impedance was inconsequential. I think (not sure) the Precept impedance is low.
Regards, |
Dear Indieroehre: When I discovered the Precept PC440 and read about the 550ML top stylus replacement there were two sources for it: Adelcom and Turntableneedles, I arrived late to the TN and when I put my order to Adelcom happened to me the same as you experienced in LPGear: already solded.
Weeks latter I " visited " LPGear looking for other item and been aware that they have it in stock and that's where I bought my 550ML sample.
I don't think you are " out of the game " because the 220 is very good performer too and in the future you always could have an up date through a re-tipping to that 220.
In the other side, as appeared a " new " 550ML source like LPGear that could be happen in the future.
Anyway you own in the Precept PC220 a " winner ".
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Regards, Fleib: Perhaps I, and HagTech, failed to specifically identify the peak/rolloff factor. This would be related to output. If, with an electro-magnetic generator, and in a set period, there is an optimum number of passes of the magnet across the poles, or vice-versa, then with variances output also varies. If output varies at both ends of the generating elements' frequency of excursion, either too slow or too fast, then amplitude at those frequencies is affected. Output would decrease with a non-optimal number of said passes, excessive excursion rates tend to result in coil saturation and eventually hysteresis. At saturation and hysteresis, first output drops and eventually signal becomes muddled. To maintain signal linearity, control through both mechanical and electrical resonances and appropriate damping of those resonances then become important. We've already been there, said that. T-shirt not available.
From this layman's understanding, both mass and stiffness are determinants in a resonant system. Damping constrains cantilever movement as well as (relative to this discussion) providing a control of mechanical resonance.
Resistance and capacitance might be considered as serving this purpose in an electrical capacity. Ohm's Law supposes that the magnitude of impedance acts like resistance, giving the drop in voltage amplitude across an impedance for a given current. Not well understood by myself, phasing problems seem more related to an AC circuit. Resistance in a single phase DC circuit deals, correct me if I'm wrong, only with magnitude.
Unwanted mechanical resonances which can't be effectively dumped elsewhere can be damped. In this sense, the faster the transmission of sound through a material, the more quickly resonances are addressed. The perfect cantilever would utilize a material of absolute rigidity and unmeasurable mass. Unfortunately it's not yet discovered and we must deal, to some extent, with ringing. Eigen values, or self-resonance, can't be ignored. Nor should it be viewed entirely as a negative.
Having aligned a number of items with a tapit wrench (that would be "I beat on it with a hammer"), I'm pretty sure the characteristic ringing of a brass rod as compared to a steel rod of equivalent geometry would, to my tin ears, be evident. Consequently, there are those who claim to hear a difference in, say, aluminum, titanium, beryllium (&tc.) cantilevers. This, as you mentioned, has been commonly commented on. If you can find the Orto. paper, please offer it.
As to any inaccuracy of the HagTech calculator, it's in agreement with the one found at the VE site. Afraid my math, available technology or patience is adequate to determine the magnitude of these resonances. It seems we're saying the same thing, but with a differing emphasis.
Thanks for your response. It required me, against all usual inclinations, to think.
Now, "Riddle me this, Fleibman": When grounded through the tonearm, does a MM cart "see" capacitance (or resistance) through tonearm earthing? First inclination is to say NO!, a vague intuition and definite psychoacoustic hypersensitivity says hmm, maybe? (Thinking, thinking, thi--)
Peace, |
Greetings Prof, The Ortofon paper from '82, was based on an AES paper. I used to have a PDF copy, but that PC crashed and burned, taking the paper with it. I'll have to hunt it down in my mailbox. The paper Ortofon published for the public discussed imaging capabilities, with listener panels they concluded it's a direct result of phase integrity. They used an accelerometer to plot phase vs amplitude in their MC-200 cart and 5 unnamed MM. They concluded that mechanical damping was the cause of phase nonlinearities and loss of imaging, but is necessary to control amplitude response and I imagine, tracking. None of the 5 MM showed a resonance or phase shift within the audible band, but they all had worse phase performance due to the need for increased damping. The MC200 has a hf resonance at 27K. Undamped, they said imaging was spectacular but the cart was unlistenable due to rising high end. Plots showed that damping to tame amplitude response, increasingly effected imaging negatively. There's a thread on VE about loading. It's lengthy, but CarlosFM (an EE) asserts that mechanical performance is the overwhelming determinate of hf resonance, not electrical parameters. This is correct IMO, although electrical resonance can and does lower the frequency of said resonance, especially with high inductance carts.
OK, but it's not the transmission speed of sound, we're talking about mechanical transmission at diff frequencies, not sound pressure waves.
My first inclination is that a MM should not "see" capacitance or resistance through the arm ground wire it's not connected to. Maybe there is some interaction with capacitance, depending on length and proximity, or phono pre?
Regards, |
Thanks, Fleib: I've a memory of reading the Orto. paper. It was years ago. Your recall is better than mine. Condolences for the loss of your PC.
Going to a heavier/shorter ground wire seemed to reduce midrange grain, quite content to ascribe it to psychoacoustics due to tidying up wiring.
Peace, |
Indieroehre, The Audio Technica Atn 12s would give you a Shibata stylus on the Precept body. Should be good. |
Thanks Acman, My many attempts to sell this damn AT-12S failed but thanks to the Precept (aka Raul) I may be in the position to make Indieroehre and myself happy (grin). |
Nandric, If you will sing praises of the Grace F8 I am thinking of parting ways with, we will call it even. ;) |
Dear Fleib: +++++ " I'm glad MCs are now in the mix. They were overdue. " +++++
I think that on the first years of this thread we had so many " new " MM/MI cartridges waiting to be discovered that there were no time for other alternative.
I always treated and still do it posting that the MM/MI is an alternative to MC cartridges or digital.
Through these thread's years time to time I listened to the LOMC alternative and in the last 6-8 months I'm not only listening more and more MC cartridges but buying several LOMC cartridges ( mainly vintage ones. ). Even with the Precept PC440 here my reference is still the Ortofon MC2000.
The Precept 440 ( and certainly the 550ML ) as other LOMC cartridges share or are very near to that reference MC2000 and in some circumstances you could prefer one ovber the other cartridge.
What is cñlear for me is that these cartridges belongs for what to me is a NCG even that almost all are vintage ones.
As the MM/MI alternative the LOMC alternative is growing up and I think that in the near future in both alternatives we could have another NCG: I hope, it depends on the cartridge designers.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Regards, Fleib: Thanks for the reminder, I'd followed the VE cart loading thread for a while, then lost track. For those interested, the relation between electrical/mechanical resonances gains impetus here: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6674&start=240Spanning six years, well worth browsing through it in its entirety. As to capacitance/resistance through grounding, at about half-way through the 21 pg. thread, there's this worrisome bit: "The problem is that the input ground will have a DC voltage referred to output/chassis ground so the left and right cartridge ground leads must be separate, and the turntable ground wire will have to be cap-coupled to chassis. This is not foolproof so basically limited to DIY use." While setting up the delightful JVC TT-71, it was convenient to ground the TT chassis to the tonearm, then a ground from the dedicated TA ground was tied into an existing ground wire, a total length of aprox. 8'. In finishing up the install, the TA ground was terminated at 3' & grounded directly to the amp. On first spin with the very familiar Sig. TK7LCa, the immediate impression was capacitance had been reduced, hence my curiosity. Not to distract from the direction in which the thread is moving, at first opportunity the DC/servo TT will be grounded to power supply, the TA will remain grounded to the doubly-insulated amp chassis. It's greatly appreciated that you didn't outrightly dismiss the possibility of grounding influence, maybe it's not entirely psychoacoustic? Peace, |
Timeltel - I use the Naim grounding scheme, which essentially is only use 1 outlet ( to get grounds as close together as possible ), and sequence the components into the wall starting with power amp and concluding with source. This lowered the noise floor considerably, even eliminating some noise from a video player further down the mains line. With regard to turntables, my preamp is star earthed and has a separate power supply. What I have done is put additional earth posts on the preamp power supply. This means I can star earth the turntable/motor/motor controller etc separately & directly back to the preamp power supply rather than through the front end of the preamp. This seemed to be beneficial. In my experience with TT's/arms/motors etc it is usually trial and error to get best results as many TT's have inconsistant grounding schemes between platter/motor/controller. |
Regards, Dover: While not "jaw dropping", the difference did engender a moment of surprise.
Perhaps a market exists for hi-end ground "cables" (can't just call 'em wire), DOUBLE star configured of prosperme, a unique alloy formed from coat hangers (Iv'e read they trounce Monster cables) from Parisean Hotels and then passed by French virgins in a counterclockwise fashion around Léon Charles Thévenin's place of rest in Meaux. Clockwise upgrade will be offered at an additional charge.
Graded by origin, hangers from the Hotel Athenee' for classical, the Hotel Amour' for those preferring a more romantic effect. Pershing Hall for PRaT, the Four Seasons George V for chamber music aficionados. The Terrass Hotel Paris for heavy metal.
Priced to reflect the "cost is no concern" attitude, I've been hoping interviews from French virgins will keep me tied up. Applicants are welcome, a position in which previous experience is not an advantage. Send photos.
Thanks for the references &
Peace, |
Prof, "The problem is that the input ground will have a DC voltage referred to output/chassis ground so the left and right cartridge ground leads must be separate, and the turntable ground wire will have to be cap-coupled to chassis. This is not foolproof so basically limited to DIY use."
What is the context, designing a phono pre? Sounds like eliminating the coupling cap, and implications of a DC coupled pre. Haven't seen this thread for awhile.
More Precept. Turns out, DC resistance is slightly less than inductance. That should put the 220/440 in the 500 ohm range for impedance. Seems to me the AT-12S, SA would be the counterparts, although output is 2.7mV rather than 4.2. The AT 15/20 series has 500 ohm impedance, I believe. Regards, |
Dear Fle4ib: I think that even that my manual specs say 4.2mv with no reference ffor 3.54 or 5.0 cm/sg the output level seems to me lower tyhan 4.2mv so maybe is that 2.7mv. This means 3.54 or 5.0?
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Fleib: These are Dlaloum posts on the subject you are discussing with Timeltel:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&5023&4&&st5000
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4535&4&&st4500
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4566&4&&st4550
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4632&4&&st4600
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4873&4&&st4850
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4896&4&&st4850
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4927&4&&st4900
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4934&4&&st4900
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&4988&4&&st4950
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&5011&4&&st5000
Dlaloum started to talk on the whole subject in 2009 trhough VE, this guy is the only person I know that not only goes deep in the research but that made several kind of measurements. I think is one of the best references about.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |