Dear Balkan Comrade,
You are a clever one. It would appear then that your Judge must believe digital "IS" better than analog and that you are repenting because you have seen the error of your ways! Shurely you were not trying to inpress the Judge with deception, where you!
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Dear Griffithds, I am sure Halcro has more than a few question marks that he can spare for you. He may even be willing to trade that last explanation point for a question mark. As for "H"s, I think you should conserve them better.
Dear Raul, No argument here. "Live" can mean many things, which is why I put the word in quotation marks and made no attempt to define it. |
Hi Lewm, You are partially correct. The "where" should have been were. Google might be your friend, but spell check is not. Nandric and I are having a humorous (?), conversation pertaining to his 8 tone arms, 26 cartridges, and a state of the art (?) $100 CD player. The surely (with the "h" injected), was intentional. Shurely (humor), you have heard or that brand of cartridge. This is humor (Balkan style), after all. The statement that you questioned (?), was not intended to be a question. It was a statement of belief, made with a implied tongue in cheek connotation. It was made to convey a statement of belief by me. Not a question by me. Reread the sentence expressing the word " were (where)", to a greater degree than the last word "you". Sort of WERE you! Not were YOU? I do not question Naddric's deceit, I imply it. This all is meant as humor 202, not English 101. |
"Shurely" I now get it. Next time, I guess use a sledge hammer. Thx. Sorry to be a pedant, but I too was aiming for a laugh. I missed badly apparently.
I need Nandric to have 8 tonearms and 26 cartridges, otherwise I might be the champion owner of tonearms and cartridges, aside from Raul of course. So, Nandric, I have a few tonearms to sell to you. I am cutting back to no more than 5. |
Glad to see you back Griffithds, but " Don't call me Shurely". |
Acman3, You have no idea how many times that thought has past thru my mind in the last few days. Has to be one of the all time greatest comic line. BTW, Shurely you jest? |
Lewm,
Are you tempting Nandric into becoming Capitalist Pig! The Judge would not look kindly upon him. I wonder if Balkan prison uniform stripes are vertical or horizontal? |
Dear Griffithds, If I become Capitalist you are free to use whatever expression you like to 'characterize' my character. But the Judge you mentioned is the wrong kind for my precarious situation. You see even from a Balkan prison one will get free at some point in time. This however is not usually the case with an asylum. BTW I also understand my sons. They , like the other members of their generation, want the money today and not tomorrow or whenever. Thanks to Lew and his colleaque there is no way to predict how long 'the old' will be among us. But I am sad to see that he prefer to help my sons with their intention by selling me some of his tonearms which are superfluous in his situation (aka 'above 5'). This is very strange because his situation is exactly the same as my. However he is obviously more optimistic reg. his own sons who only need to show to the judge his electrostatic collection to win their case. That is to say: 1 step> asylum , 2 step> relieve from parental authority 3 step> division of his property. I intend then to make them an offer for his plinths , some carts and some tonearms. Then I intend to pay him a visit in the asylum and show off with the price I got from the 'apple of his eye'.
Regards,
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****....but I am listening for something else in the music, call it visceral, and for another reason.**** - Lewm
Visceral, that's it! How does one measure/quantify "visceral"? Can it be done? I don't think so. But, like Lewm, I sure as hell know it when I hear it; or, more correctly, when I feel it. We are talking about MUSIC; about art. Music is human expression and feeling. In our attempt to tickle our audiophile itch and quest for perfection we want to think that all that is relevant about music and it's reproduction can be quantified and reduced (?) to issues of distortions as we understand them. I don't think that it can be.
What makes reproduced music feel visceral as it does live has very little to do with the position of the microphone, or the location of our ears in the concert hall. Why is it that a band rehearsing in a room with an open window, one block away, can be instantly recognized as live and not a recording? I believe that, more than anything, it has to do with dynamics. Not loudness, but the infectious energy of human musical interaction. Whatever that mysterious thing is that makes a subtle dynamic shading just as exciting as as the big bombastic one.
The more time we spend around the sound of live, the more we understand just how much of that information gets destroyed by the recording process. For whatever reasons (at a certain point I personally stop caring what those reasons are) digital playback does more damage to that sense of visceral than does analog. |
Nandric,
I've done a Google search and have not been able to (to my satisfaction), answer some of the questions our good hearted discussions has risen in my thought process. Perhaps you would be so kind as to fill them in for me. For a child to accuse his parent in court for what could turn into a extended holiday in an asylum, what does/would a Judge require as proof from a child? Are we talking about 70 year old parents which would mean the child would be lets say 50ish? Or are we including 13 year old children accusing their parents who would be in their 30's? In Europe, are children responsible for the debts of their parents after their death? I'm trying to understand from the courts point of view, why children should/would have any input as to how their parents could spend money they acquired in life. Regards, Don |
For whatever reasons (at a certain point I personally stop caring what those reasons are) digital playback does more damage to that sense of visceral than does analog. Well said Frogman. To this day.......I have never heard digital playback which 'moves' me in any way. And there are no question marks to follow THAT statement! |
Dear Griffithds, This is not the right place to answer your questions. But in short. The family law and succsesion law are incorporated in the civil law. The kids are not liable for their parents debts if they don't accept the inheritance otherwise well. By the capability of acting (signing an contract) you can think of Alzheimer and similar situations when the kids need to take over judicial and other decisions from one or both parents.
Regards, |
Dear Frogman: +++++ " in a room with an open window, one block away, can be instantly recognized as live and not a recording? " +++++
that's absolutely true. Months ago in other thread we were discussing precisely what means live music and how we perceive it against recorded one. In that time I posted one of several experiences that as you several of us already had. The one I exposed was by coincidence the sound of a music in a horn played for a street-man that goes block after block playing looking for some coins for he can survive ( here in México we have many of this. ).
Yes, you can disguish live music not one block from you but even two or three blocks and it does not matters if what we heard is in an open " stage " like the plain street with all the street noise pollulation.
In that time too I posted that that " visceral " word that used Lewm is absolutely right and is a sinonimus of DYNAMIC, this dynamic is the main difference between live music ( it does not matters seat/micro position and it does not matters at which distance we are. hearing it. ) and any recorded music in any audio system.
Live music DYNAMIC is untouchable by audio system performances and for a wide wide margin.
Frogman, my main target is to have that live music DYNAMICS that's a critical an important factor to feel the MUSIC to feel and develop all kind of emotions that only music can gives us. So please don't misunderstood when I talk about distortions because IMHO in an audio system we are " fighting 2 against those distortions and as lower those distortions as IMHO we are near to that " live event ".
MUSIC per se even through a Walkman has the capacity to move us in many ways and it does not matters how high are those Walkman distortions but this is not the subject.
The subject is ( at least for me )and my main target in my audio system: to hear first than all the recorded music in a way that " moves " me that wake-up my emotions that wake-up on me the hapiness that MUSIC can gives me ( distorted or not. ). My second target is that that MUSIC I heard/hear through my audio system be at the top quality performance level I can achieve and things are that I think that lowering any kind of distortions I can be nearest to this second main target.
So, in a different way but I agree absolutely with you about. This is not my first post supporting that dynamic main characteristic that music has, I did it many times and did it not only because a music characteristic but because the recorded music can't approach it and this is the biggest challenge for the audio high industry where we are an important part. In the mean time I think that we have to think how improve what we have, I know because you posted several times that you are not looking for audio " perfection " , well I'm looking that precisely. Tha's why exist this thread that's why I always try to test to explore new " audio roads " and that's why I try to share my findings with all of you.
I respect your position to not look for " perfection ", I can't even imagine it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Nandric,
Yes, this is not the place but (there is always a but), had it not been for having dinner with a dear friend a few nights ago, I would not have asked. He has cancer, and headed down hill. His (apples of his eye), are fighting, actually have threaten to sue each other over who is going to get what. Hell, the man is still alive and quite coherent! The thought of it all sort of makes me sick. My apology to all for this misplaced inquiry and thank you Nandric for your input. Regards, Don |
Raul, et al -
It seems this street musician experience is one that many of us have shared. For me it was during my lunch hour in our downtown area. I wasn't even on the same street but had to turn the corner and walk another block before I met up with him. Now some might say that hearing a solo sax was clue enough not to confuse it with something from a boom box or open car window. As a jazz fan I've heard lots of sax music, live and recorded. There was no confusion in my mind the moment I first heard him that it was a live performance. Yes I agree some of that was dynamics, but I believe it is more than an unrestricted range from soft to loud. There is also the complete lack of any distortion. These are not precise words but it is an ease and flow with the music. For me, any recorded music seems to have some varying number of thin veils between myself and the performer.
As the wife of one of my audio buddies expressed to him on their way home after a symphony concert, "I don't care how much money you spend or what equipment you try, it is never going to sound like that!" |
Dear pryso; There is no doubt, you and your buddie's wife are right: no audio system will perform " like that "..
Time ago in some other threads some people ( not one. ) posted that some times and ude to the very high quality performance of very expensive audio systems in a home system/retailer room they were " foolished " on what they heard before they knew was an audio system: they thinked was a live instruments/live music.
When I read that I posted that " I respect all your opinions but IMHO that could not happened and if you heard that was because two factors: or you are near deaf or you know nothing about live music performance level ".
As you posted: we can't be confused about!!!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
When I read that I posted that " I respect all your opinions but IMHO that could not happened and if you heard that was because two factors: or you are near deaf or you know nothing about live music performance level ".
Well.....I think this 'glorification' of 'live vs reproduced' is self-fulfilling. If I were Raul....I could make some inflammatory statement to the effect that HIS system is simply deficient if it can't produce sounds able to approximate the sound of 'Live'? Mine certainly can. I've walked outside my place whilst a solo piano was still playing on my turntable and have had people say how lovely the 'playing' was. And yes.......we've all heard the apocryphal tales of the wandering minstrel and the solo clarinet/saxophone in the street? But I've also heard the Mr Wippy van roll past playing Greensleeves from its roof-mounted megaphones...and thought it was 'live'? No-one dares to mention the live music events which simply fail to convince?......and I mean full orchestral music. Just recently I was in Ravello in Italy sitting outdoors listening to the 88 piece Shenzhen Philharmonic Orchestra playing Wagner. There were 10 first violins, 10 second violins, 10 violas, 10 cellos and 8 double basses as the string section alone. I sat not 30 feet away in a variety of locations to see if what I heard could be believed? There was little top-end.....there was little bass....and there was zero excitement. It was as if a tinny transistor radio were positioned on a picnic blanket in front of me? And this is not an exceptional experience. I saw Andrea Boccelli with the full New York Philharmonic in Carnegie Hall. I was dead centre in a private box on the second gallery level and the sound was lightweight and insipid. I was at a function in a showroom once where they had a trio of musicians as 'background' music.....violin, cello, flute. I could walk up to them and even around them.....yet the music had none of the 'realism' of my system? It was 'dead' and unattractive. I was deeply disturbed. So please......stop this 'bleeding hearts' worship of the 'Absolute Sound'. It is a myth intended to bestow legitimacy and acumen on those who 'profess' it? Yes......really 'great' live sound is intoxicating. But it is just as hard to find as 'great' reproduced sound. And if you haven't got it Raul.......please don't assume that others are similarly deprived? |
Dear Raul, thank you for addressing my comments. I can't disagree with anything that you wrote. My comments about the seeking perfection are not meant to suggest that there is anything inherently wrong with wanting it, but rather an attempt at suggesting that the only way to really move closer to perfection is by having a very strong sense of the only valid standard; the sound of live music. Further, my comments have usually focused on the idea that we usually concern ourselves with tonal details, and don't give as much importance to rhythm (dynamics). When "distortions" are discussed, it is usually in reference to tonality, timbre, etc.; but distortion of rhythm/dynamics is even more harmful to the music's message. I know some will argue this point, but the most important element of music is rhythm; that is what, more than anything, conveys the feeling of music. El SABOR de la musica.
Regards. |
Halcro, I think you are talking about two different things. The fact that music is live does not necessarily make it a good performance; that is obvious. I will gladly mention the live music events that fail to convince; I have heard many and been part just as many. It should not be surprising that a flute trio comprised of less than top players will leave much to be desired. A recording of Rampal or Bennett playing the same music would definitely be more desirable. But Rampal or Bennett in that same room would knock you socks off, and would be superior to their own recordings. BTW, the NY Phil is notorious for not giving their best when performing with solo artists who are not top notch, or that they simply don't like. Bocelli, in the scheme of the operatic tenor world, is not a great tenor. So, it is not surprising that the orchestra did not sound it's best that evening.
****the 'Absolute Sound'. It is a myth **** I respectfully disagree. |
There is no way that any audio system can get close to a live sound...period. Anyone who thinks their system is close is living in cloud cuckoo land. However, as Frogman says there are many poor live performances, and let us not forget that with the advent of technology and digital engineering, these insane architects, sound/acoustics engineers and accountants are responsible for screwing up the sound in most new concert halls and sadly renovations of old ones with their new improved theories../read shortcuts/cost savings that can be construed as "improvements" given enough imagination. For me the whole raison d'etre or value added proposition for audio systems is the ability to sift through all the mediocre recorded performances, find the definitive performance and listen to those performances when we are in the mood. As in Frogman's case, I would rather listen to a recording of Heifetz version of the Bruch Violin Concerto in my flawed system than listen to some mediocre performer, with a second rate orchestra in a concert hall with bad acoustics. |
Frogman, I am not commenting in any way on the 'quality' of musical performances......just as those extolling the virtues of the wandering 'minstrel' or 'open window on live instruments' are not? We are simply discussing the supposed 'superiority' of 'live' sound to reproduced sound and it's supposed easily heard distinctions? If you've heard 'poorly' reproduced 'live' sound.......then I fail to see your argument? |
****Supposed (?!) superiority of live sound to reproduced sound****
Wow! I don't really know where to start. Let me put it this way: No question that reproduced music can SOUND better than live at times. But, good live sound (and certainly, the best live sound) is so superior to the best reproduced sound that it is I that fails to see the argument.
Part of the problem with these discussions is the emphasis on the SOUND of the music without taking into account that perceived SOUND is inextricably intertwined with the PERFORMANCE; the feeling. Halcro, you were, in fact, discussing the quality of the performance. You mentioned how the flute trio sounded "dead and unattractive"; how the NYP's sound was "insipid". Those are all performance traits that don't have much to do with frequency range, dimensionality, sound staging, or harmonic distortion. You can have a great flute trio in an acoustically unattractive performance space that sounds alive, attractive, and very tasteful because of great phrasing and great ensemble playing, regardless of wether the sound is bright, dark, or whatever. |
But, good live sound (and certainly, the best live sound) is so superior to the best reproduced sound that it is I that fails to see the argument. There is no way that any audio system can get close to a live sound...period. Anyone who thinks their system is close is living in cloud cuckoo land. Well.......statements like these are obviously 'Gospel'......and so self-evident that only a fool would claim otherwise? And they are such 'safe' statements because of that very fact? Yet more than 30 years ago I believe......tests were conducted by Quad (I think).....where behind a curtain, a real violinist stood between two speakers and played the same piece as contained on the record. Most listeners on the other side of the curtain were unable to reliably pick the live violinist? Now I'm not claiming that the recorded sound can be 'better' than the 'best' sound of the real thing......... But the 'best' sound of the 'real thing' is so rare as to be an endangered species.......and our dutiful grovelling to the altar of 'live' music is doing a disservice to the advances that have been made to our reproduction systems? I have not heard a 'live' symphony orchestra performance I have attended over the last ten years which can't be bettered in every aspect......on my home system? Admittedly.......only a dozen or so records I own, can accomplish this feat but that is irrelevant IMO? Over 50 years of attending 'amplified' performances............probably only 30 to 40 remain in my memory as truly inspiring and yes........unable to be matched on my system (but this has a lot to do with live undistorted SPLs possible). The other performances......I wouldn't wish to replicate in my home? If this is not your experience......I'm happy for you......but please don't assume the mantle of righteouness as 'defender of the faith'? The 'bible' is accepted only by its believers and blasphemy is rarely tolerated? |
Yet more than 30 years ago I believe......tests were conducted by Quad (I think).....where behind a curtain, a real violinist stood between two speakers and played the same piece as contained on the record.Most listeners on the other side of the curtain were unable to reliably pick the live violinist From whence the expression "cloth ears" is likely derived. |
Halcro, you were, in fact, discussing the quality of the performance. You mentioned how the flute trio sounded "dead and unattractive"; how the NYP's sound was "insipid". Those are all performance traits that don't have much to do with frequency range, dimensionality, sound staging, or harmonic distortion. I was indeed discussing the quality of the 'sound'. Your rules that 'dead and unattractive' and 'insipid' are not to be used to describe 'quality'.......are not my rules? |
From whence the expression "cloth ears" is likely derived. Heh heh |
Dear Halcro: For years and through several posts I writed that many times a home system experience could and can be more " atractive " than the live event and the main factor for this is because the microphones are " seated " at 2-3 m. from the source when we are seated at 10 m.. So the micro can take almost the penultimate nuances of music that we can't and we have to remember that the best micros can take frequency ranges from: 5hz to 50khz+.
In the other side it does not matters where we are seated the " visceral/dynamics " of a live event IMHO can't be matched even for the best micro/audio systems and as frogman pointed out: this is not a factor of loudness but DYNAMICS that only live music has, remember too that live music has a natural agresiveness and natural " flavor " and natural " distortions " that can't IMHO been mimic but any audio system including yours.
Again, there are some recordings that we can say: " sounds better in my home system that in live venue ", but this is a function of what I posted and not that any system can be " there " can approach the live music DYNAMICS.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Anyway, I got a kick out of Henry's "Mr Wippy" example. Thanks for the laugh. And he has a good point there; sometimes one can be shockingly wrong about the source of a "real" sounding bit of music. As for an outdoor performance (in Ravenna), all bets are off when you're outdoors, because humidity, wind, etc, have a major effect on what reaches your ears or does not reach your ears, in an orchestral setting. Standing 5 feet away from a solo instrumentalist in some subway station is a different story. Recently, a good friend brought her teenage daughter to our home to play saxophone for several of us. She was about to try out for a local jazz band and wanted to practice her sample pieces in front of an audience. (Either that, or her mother thought she should do it; I could not tell which.) She stood right in the middle of our listening room, between my large ESLs, and about 5 of us sat at the listening position. I have on occasion heard my system sound AS dynamic and effortless as is the real thing, but the experience set the bar pretty high for the system to emulate. (She got the gig, by the way, and deservedly so.) Saxophone is a good instrument on which to judge dynamics, because it is inherently so flexible in tone and amplitude. Try that, sometime. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " If I were Raul....I could make some inflammatory statement to the effect that HIS system is simply deficient if it can't produce sounds able to approximate the sound of 'Live'? Mine certainly can. " +++++ " And if you haven't got it Raul.......please don't assume that others are similarly deprived? " ++++
All that is IMHO a misunderstood. As in almost any of each one audio system we " think " we are approaching the live event/music but this fact is only a best " desire " that we can't fulfil. I don't want to repeat what I posted in my last two posts that are self explaining that.
Yes, our audio systems sounds " glorious "/fantastic and I have no doubt about but this is not the main subject.
Main subject IMHO is what Lewm posted at the begin, that unique music characteristic. VISCERAL7DYNAMICS that only live music has with poor performances or great performances.
There are other music characteristics that we can't mimic trhough any audio system but that one I repeat is UNTOUCHABLE by any audio system at any price range and if you think that is not true then maybe your live music knowledge and what you perceived with is different for what others ( including me. ) perceive about.
No, your " blasfemhy " is absolutely not only tolerated but we are discussing on. |
Dear Lewm: I did it more that once. Remember that man with his horn that I meet at the street?, well that they he played for me at my place.
Yes, we have ( a must to ) these kind of first hand experiences to know the TRUE, to be aware of it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R: |
I have problem to diferenciate between 'loudness' and 'dynamics'. In any (home) listening roome there is a 'loudness level' which become unbearable. But I never experienced such a level by any concert( those with amps. not included). |
Loudness can be and is dynamic only if the recording is done right. |
Hi everyone,
Thanks for keeping this thread alive.
I will be selling two NOS phono carts I don't need. Any interest?
- a Pickering UV-15/2400Q -- has a very tiny Quadrahedral diamond and small, fairly short cantilever. All packing and unopened hardware. Never mounted. Looks absolutely new. Original factory stylus assembly is the one that came with this cartridge- nice tight fit to body. 5Hz-50kHz response. For tonearms with a medium effective moving-mass.
- a Panasonic EPC-450C-II strain gauge with original Shibata stylus- this is the much-improved version of the original- much smaller diamond and better cantilever. Requires a strain gauge preamp such as Jeff Rowland used to make or a Panasonic SE-405. Original packing and unopened hardware. Never mounted. Perfect shape.
Best to all! Roy |
We all have some carts for sale but try to sell them elsewhere. |
Nandric, To me, that is part of the key also; live sound can be VERY loud and yet not irritating. To the contrary, it can often envelope you in the experience. This is a quality to be sought for in the electronic reproduction of music. When the sound becomes loud, and irritating at the same time, way before one has reached the physiologic pain threshold in terms of db, the system is at fault somewhere. (That is to say any sound, live or electronically reproduced, can eventually become painful and irritating at some SP level well above 100-110db.) Typically, the speakers have been driven into distortion or the amplifiers are operating above their limitations (or the cartridge is mistracking or the LP sucks). Now I read what I just wrote, and I do realize it's probably obvious to all of you. But to me it was a kind of revelation when I first noticed that this does not happen in live performance in a closed venue, when the concert hall itself is not creating nasties, e.g., in a small jazz club when you have a good seat or in my living room with Aina playing the sax. |
I have problem to diferenciate between 'loudness' and 'dynamics'. In any (home) listening roome there is a 'loudness level' which become unbearable. But I never experienced such a level by any concert( those with amps. not included). On my limited understanding, 'loudness' connotes peak db whereas 'dynamics' connotes a relationship between peak and minimal db's (the difference between ppps and fffs). So, it is said that radio commercials play loud (to capture one's attention) but are not dynamic (because they just remain at the peak db throughout). I have experienced the same thing as you Nandric. My system (as measured by a radio shack spl meter) peaks at about 90-95db. At around the high 80's the dog leaves the room, my wife runs out to tell me to turn it down, and I cry mercy. On the other hand, I used to have season tickets to the Met Opera and I never experienced discomfort. I've read that a full orchestra can peak at over 110db. One possible explanation is that the distortion and not the absolute level of my system makes high 80's uncomfortable, whereas the undistorted 100+db of the NY Phil make for pleasure. Seating position presumably plays a role as well, as I was never 10ft from the orchestra. Another factor is the time the piece remains at the highest db. So when I 'turn it up' on my system, the max db is reached with greater frequency (like a radio commercial) than it is with a live orchestra which hits 110db only very infrequently. The greater time spent at peak makes for discomfort: 3 minutes at 88db is more uncomfortable than 5 seconds at 110db). |
Nandric, Lewm's comments re loudness and how distortion affects perceived loudness are correct. Banquo wrote how dynamics connotes a relationship between peak and minimal db's. I would modify that to say that it is the relationship between peak and minimal db's AT ANY TWO POINTS IN TIME in the music, and not necessarily in the ppp to fff range only. This is, IMO, a key point in this discussion.
A key element of musical expression is the constant and constantly changing dynamic swings in every micro-dynamic range (ppp to pp, p to mf, f to mf, ff to mf, etc.); those little musical dynamic pushes and releases that give music excitement and sense of aliveness. And it's even more subtle than that. In music, p or ff are not absolutes. Musicians, in the course of preparing the performance of a piece will establish a volume benchmark for each traditionally established dynamic marking (p, mf, f, ff, etc.) based on concensus on what is musically appropriate; but between any two benchmarks there are many even more subtle dynamic gradations. Listen to the Philadelphia Orchestra's string section making a tutti crescendo in a relatively narrow dynamic range such as mp to mf; it can take your breath away in it's seamlessness and rhythmic purpose. What is it that gives Sonny Rollins his unmatched rhythmic impetus? A great deal of it is his ability to control subtle dynamic changes from one note to the other; not just the notes he plays but how he arrives at each note. Most audio components distort this information just as much or more than distortions in timbre which is what we usually focus on. That information is what gives live music that indescribable quality that tells you immediately that it is live. |
A good system needs a good room. What we usually experience when working on our units is that we reach progress and we enjoy the result but what really makes a difference - also when it comes to Live Sound - is The Listening Room. I had people in my room recently listening to a copy of the Miles Davis master tape "Kind of Blue" saying the instruments sounded like in a club, very lively. Is this Live Sound? i don't know, maybe it is the set up of single chains resulting in a sound people like - and me too. |
Part of the problem here may be in how any of us defines a "live music" performance.
Unfortunately, there has been a trend for "electronic" reinforcement to the extent where it is difficult to find a truly acoustic live performance. And once electronics enter the picture can that still be considered live music?
I attend a variety of live performances, everything from folk, world music, or jazz trio/quartet in a small venue (say seating 100 or less) to my local symphony in their own hall (seating 2,250). Many performers show up with their own amps and speakers and insist on using them, even at our best local venue for acoustics, a purpose-built room seating less than 300. Even the symphony resorts to electronic reproduction to correct for sonic deficiencies at seats under a fairly large balcony (I choose seats near the front of the balcony, a location that experience has shown to offer the best overall sonics).
So my earlier comments on differentiating between live musical performances and the experience of home systems must include a footnote. To that point I recently discovered an opportunity to sit in (as a listener) for an evenings two-hour practice session by a local 17-piece jazz band. Other than the electric keyboard, that was completely acoustic. I attended with two other members of our local audio club and we emphatically agreed none of us EVER heard a home music that came close to that experience! |
Anyone in need of a Stylus guard for their Goldring G800, the slide on guard from a AT will fit with just a slight amount of trimming with a x-acto knife. I had a spare and have put it to good use. |
I believe that the 'secret' to approaching the 'dynamics' of 'live' sound.....is the reduction (or elimination) of all possible distortions? In that belief.....I am wholeheartedly with Raul. I generally listen at 90dB or thereabouts.......but can comfortably turn it up to 95dB without strain. My speakers are 99dB efficient and are sealed boxes with only two Duelund capacitors (one for the Scanspeak tweeter and one for the Scanspeak mid driver) whilst the 12" woofer is run 'full-range'. With the addition of two Vandersteen 2Wq powered subwoofers and the M5 electronic High-Pass filters......the power demand on the two 200W Halcro DM58 monoblocks is seriously reduced. The Halcro electronics are amazingly pure but are improved even further when using the Cardas Clear XLR interconnects in 'Balanced' mode. With the reduction in distortions and the efficiencies in driving the speakers.....even the tiniest distortions heard with various LOMC cartridges are discernible. And that segues nicely into this entire Thread topic? |
or you prefer the ginormous distortions of higher output MM's, ideal for listening to Mr Whippy tunes, than the tiny distortions in LOMC's, which is quite reasonable if you like the Mr Whippy flavour..... just saying.
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Regards, Dover: Fleib made, earlier, the suggestion that it might be interesting to share notes concerning the characteristics of carts found to be of noteworthy performance. I'd suggest that most with an output of 3.5mv or less (there are, IMHO, exceptions) are capable of nimble transient response. In spite of it's 2.5mv output, resonance in the 12k hz region continues with the Technics EPC-U25/ML stylus and is NOT one to recommend to friends. I give up on it, perceiving a response more brittle than a poorly rendered Joni Mitchell CD. Bass however is quite good. Your comment on "ginormous" distortions due to higher output is one that may result in shedding additional light on general qualities to be aware of in selecting an unreferenced, or even referenced cart. If would you be so kind, give an opinion of the level at which output derived distortions are observed? Determined to conquer the U25, I followed up on your suggestion to examine the offerings of Peter Belt & found several fairly recent references in Stereophile, revived some memories: http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/As to the U25, the designation seems somehow submarine-like & there are several ponds on the property--- Peace, |
The most money I spend or lost, depending from the point of view, was on speakers and drink. I don't regret the drinks. I first fall in love with Quod 57 but because of dynamics switched to Timpany (Magi's), then one pair of Audiostatics then two pairs of Audiostatics, three pairs of Audiostatics and then I switched to Nudells Infinity but, alas, not the biggest one. If I could afford those I would gladly convert my home door in a fire department kind to let them in. My last were based on the assumption that Beryllium drivers will make (at last) the 'dynamic difference'. But alas. So to protect myself and even more so my bank account I am not in the position to believe Lew's story about his electrostatics and 'life concerts' in his living room. But I do believe in his argument about the speakers as the primary cause for this misery even before I knew his name.
Regards, |
Halcro I believe that the 'secret' to approaching the 'dynamics' of 'live' sound..... Henry IMO – if you are really serious about this it will take some effort and facilities. How about bringing the live sound into your home, then playing back the recorded master tape and have the audience decide how close you got ……This is just one person's approach/method that might tell you how big the delta really is if this is your goal. I applaud his efforts as a serious music lover / audiophile. My only comment would be the rooms were different and the room plays the biggest role in how things actually sound. System used is this particular case can be seen down toward the bottom of the website link. I am not affiliated with this website and I wasn't in the audience. |
Yes Chris.........a lot of work? Do you know what the result was? I can't seem to find this anywhere? |
Dear Ct0517, nice images! The artists, the instruments and the audience seem to be fine! The listening room is far away from being benchmark - window areas etc. It may be a live performance but its hard to believe that the sound is really good... |
Dear Dover, Do I perceive an anti-MM bias in your remark? If so, I must have been asleep, because I did not previously appreciate your feelings on the matter. If you prefer MCs, that is one thing, and it's not for me to put you down for that, but to attribute what you perceive to be the superiority of MCs vs MMs as regards "distortion" to the lower output of a typical MC is wrong-headed, IMO. MMs make a much higher signal voltage, because the technology naturally results in a higher signal voltage, compared to MCs. This does not necessarily make for higher distortion. In fact, one might equally as well argue that MMs have the advantage, because their higher compliance makes for better tracking of the LP groove. Also, their higher output permits the use of lower gain phono stages, which also tends toward reducing distortion in the signal chain. Nor is the moving mass of an MC always lower than that of a comparable MM type (which would be one rationale to support your generalization). In fact, MI cartridges typically have a lower moving mass than do MCs. However, if you were to say that HOMCs are not nearly as true to life as LOMCs, as a class (exceptions are always possible), I would agree. I prefer the better MMs to any of the 3 HOMCs I have owned. None of them ever gave me goose bumps. So, tell me how the higher output of an MM cartridge necessarily makes for more distortion, or whatever it is you don't like. |
Hi Henry I don’t know anyone there except for the host so I don’t know what the actual impressions of that specific concert were - sorry. You can however read actual tape impressions/other feedback at this link – go to the guest book section. http://ultraanaloguerecordings.comHe produces tapes and I am a direct customer of one master tape. My understanding - not confirmed - is they (tapes) are now source material for shows. Other than the tape purchase I am not affiliated with him. His next concert according to the stereopal website is this weekend. Anyone in the Toronto area wanting to hear it should contact him. I was advised about these concerts but my time is very limited these days. I came across the stereopal article accidentally a while ago. Hi Thuchan – nice to see you back on the forum. Glad u like the images. Yes - I agree with your room comments looking at just the picture – rooms can sound so different however from the perceptions we get from pictures. Many variables. I think the feedback from people on the tapes themselves show his listening room must sound pretty good if it is his reference room for the tape monitoring/editing process. No?Maybe one day I will get a chance to hear it. I found it interesting from discussions with him that the sound in the pool room is much better with the pool cover on. Maybe its also to keep people from falling in…. Also want to clarify that when I said “sound” in the earlier post I meant it from a tone, timbre, soundstage, etc ….. Not the actual performance (people factors?) that Frogman and others referenced earlier. |
An addendum to my previous posting........is it just me or do others find the weakest link in audio to be 'speakers'? In over 30 years of listening.......I can count on one hand the speakers I have heard which actually sound convincing? Leaving aside Planars, Electrostatics, Horns and other specialised technologies like Ohm and MBL......moving coil 'box' designs appear to have 'lost it' (if they ever 'had it')....since the advent of SS amplification? The 'failings' IMHO appear to be linked with Low Impedance, Low Efficiency, High-Order and/or Complex Crossover design and Porting? I think the ONLY commercial speakers I have heard recently which to me.... come close to presenting a convincing 'image'.....were the Magico Q5 (which are now superseded by the M5). Is it so hard for designers to hear the benefits of High Impedance, High Efficiency, Minimal Crossover, Sealed Box designs?........or is it simply 'easier' to design for theoretical flat frequency response in the computer, using these other models? |