This was the first real novel headshell with VTA dial ( not a copicat. ):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nice-Dual-CS-5000-Audiophile-Concept-Turntable-Headshell-/261107178098?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3ccb335a72
almost all days are a learning ones.
R. |
Hi Raul,
Thanks for the link and a little history!
Fun Mostly,
Stitch.e |
Regards, Danny/Dover/Geoch: "The General cannot engage in battle because of personal frustration. When it is advantageous, move; when not advantageous, stop. Anger can revert to happiness, annoyance can revert to joy, but the dead (cart) cannot be brought back to life. This is the Tao--" The Art Of War, Sun-tzu.
Always pleased to exchange info. on my favorite thread, the Moving Maginot one. Put your headshells on, the blitzkrieg resumes!
Armistice, |
Raul, you wanna seriously compare this Dual headshell with the Arche? Where do you change the SRA?. You need to show us. |
Hello thuchanie,
Please be polite with Raul.
thuchan, you seem to have an orientating tendency to take an overreaching and inflated position when discussing your recent copycat. That position is somewhat understood, since we tend to love all of our children.; well, there are those pesky adolescence ones that can be the exception to the rule!
There is this old bavarian saying that goes something like this, "the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."
So, thuchan, please tell us, "are you pulling on your worm or are you simply a rat?"
Fun Mostly,
Stitch.e |
A horse is an copicat of an locomotive in Sun-tzu way of thinking. The objective is to move from A to B with the available means. I am sure that Sun-tzu owned the best horse available then. The obssesion of two of our members with 'D' I recognise because of my desperate love for Silvia. This noble feeling turned in a destructive kind when I was not able to put Otello out of my mind. But, alas, I was not as brave. Then my poor parents were also involved in thinking about the connection between the ' end and means'. But my problem is this: why am I not allowed to mention 'D' while other members are repeating his name over and over again?
Regards, |
Nandric - be patient - "they cling to their own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet their opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away..." |
Hello Timeltel, I'm not sure what you're saying here, please explain. "The EPC-U25 has real potential. It can be heard with the SAS but then there's that annoying 12k bump. If you've noticed the same exists at the 8k range with carts having more than (+-) 1200 ohm output inductance, at 22-2300 ohm every defect of your, no, my vinyl is magnified."
You're talking about carts with around 1200 mH inductance and 22-2300 ohms impedance? The EPC-U25 has less inductance because of 12K bump rather than 8K, or this is strictly from cantilever resonance? I just wanted to clarify what you're saying. That seems like an excessive amount of inductance and I'm not sure that's what you meant. Regards, |
Hi Dover, I see the quotation marks but not the author. Your own contribution then consist of the word 'patience'. How about your own (grin)? |
Dear Thuchan: Please read the whole link on that Dual headshell that comes with the VTA mechanism ( now you can see that the novelty came from Dual. ).
This dial at the top of this vintage Dual headshell is the one that permit to change the VTA:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-CS-5000-HEADSHELL-SILVER-/261068223207?item=261068223207&ViewItem=&category=64619&nma=true&si=MCuLDlDfNOPYvISbEXiKcqVHGeo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
A very old audio item. Of course that because our each one ignorance level some one could think today exist a novel one headshell that you can confirm is double copy-cat. IMHO not something where you could be soproudly as you showed you are.
Anyway, I think is better to go on with the MM/MC thread.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
In fairness, the Dual headshell has a built-in offset angle and a very odd looking contact area, and so can probably be used only on a Dual tonearm. But thanks for the history, Raul. I think I even recall seeing that headshell in use, back in the dark ages of my life. I certainly did own a Dual 1019 at some point. Don't recall if that headshell was used on its tonearm.
Also in fairness, one headshell pretty much has to resemble any other headshell in at least some aspects of its appearance. In the set of all headshells, the Orsonic is rather unique in its appearance. We know that its maker was a devotee of the Orsonic, at some time or other. (Perhaps not now.) So to criticize the Arche because it has a general resemblance to the Orsonic seems a bit unfair. (Of course, I am the one who brought that up, so I guess I share the blame.) One could similarly justify criticism of most any other headshell, because it looks a bit like some headshell that one does not like. The Arche should stand or fall on its own merits, also notwithstanding the personality or character of its designer. |
Regards, Fleib: Would like to lay that one on dang auto correct but my bad, a very early morning post. Output impedance. The most immediate illustration would be the AT-20 @ 500 ohm compared to the 440MLa, 3200 ohm. Ever hear the AT-20 referred to as an "ear biter"?
A few others: Shure V15-111, @ 1350, V15-xMR, 650 ADC XLM (varies), 360 to 760, the PSX 10 through 40, 3600 ohm.
Not many of the higher impedance carts are discussed here, the (borderline) Grace F9-E is one, 1700 ohm. "Back in the day", it was considered by some to have a response tilted in the hfs, IIRC Martin Colloms was one. The higher output (mv) F9-L was on his "Recommended" list for 1977, the F9-E, not. An illustration that there are other factors (loading, stylus/cantilever, yada, yada) involved in voicing a cart but if one cares to do a listening comparison it's there (IMHO) to be heard.
If you're curious, measuring device is an ancient Pio. SG-9500 equalizer. A remnant from the days when people still recorded to cassette. Switched out of the equally ancient rig except for doing the Fletcher-Munsen smiley face thing at rare low level listening, it's useful for identifying the range of suspected anomalies.
Lesson learned, not to post before second cup of coffee. Thanks for catching that.
Peace, |
Dear Raul, a 'double copy-cat'? I was a kind of proud of my 'iron horse' versus 'locomotive' invention but now need to chose between a goat or a mule for the comparison sake. Your imagination nearly outstrip you capabilty to detect distortions in the systems as far as in Australia making the life of our beloved Henry more difficult than it already is. No wonder nobody can imagine the level of you learning curve, not to mention any hope to get nearer in your omni potent world. If the clairvoyance is not involved I have no idea what this expression means.Inventing such a cheap argument and then say: 'it is better to go on with the MM/MC thread is tipical for your arogance. You have no idea what you are tolking about because you have not even seen the Arche but we know all what you think about your own capabilities . Alas there is not a single individual who can testify about your claims. Typical of you is the transition from 'Guliermo and I' to 'my phonopre', 'my tonearm' and even 'my new cartridge'. Are you mechanical- or electronic engeneer? Nobody has any idea about your profession. But anyway your new cartridge is very difficult to combine with someone who post nearly all his carts for 'refresh' and upgrade to Axel in Germany. Those who think that other are imbecile should look better in their own mirror.
|
Yes Lewm, from that point of view every headshell or tonearm is a copy-cat but here we are talking of a unique VTA mechanism " invented " by Dual ( I think there is a difference, don't you think? ). I don't know if exist that mechanism in a headshell before Dual one.
R. |
I always thought Raul has a deep relation to Germany, maybe a kind of hate/love but I did not even have an imagination that the relation is such deep. Somehow makes him sympathical despite his crude argumentation on headshells... |
Hi Timeltel, Interesting to read your correlation of response vs impedance. Many people put much more emphasis on inductance. It is the presence of inductance at the output, combined with shunt capacitance, that lowers the high frequency resonance of the cart. All of the Nagaoka carts, which are said to be not overly bright, have an impedance of 3800-4900 ohms. The Stanton 681 is 930mH/1300 ohms. The 881 is 450mH/900 ohms. The natural response of virtually all carts, exhibits a rising high end. It is mostly mechanical damping that tames it. No argument about your examples, I just think you have to look at more parameters. Regards, |
Ahh, thuchan:
Please, no reason for you to be so patronizing to Raul.
Raul, he has simply been the messenger regarding the apparent, as even mentioned by Lewm, lack of character by the designer, dertonarm, and this hyping tendency promoter, thuchan.
So far, IMHO, we know the following:
-there is the plagiarizing of the original idea by the designer and the promoter. Ah self-promotion, the best kind, not!
-when there are problems with designs and workflow, the designer, dertonarm, follows Steve Miller's advice, "take the money and run." It does not matter to dertonarm that he is dishonest. thuchan,, I am sure that it disturbs your psyche, that your friend, your designer, is a common pickpocket.
Hence, thuchan, your immature attacks on Raul; you know, since you are uncapable of being honest with this disfunctional relationship with the designer, you need another one to carry your inablity to accept reality.
-we understand that the promoter needs to protect his investment in this dishonest writer, publisher, designer, trickster, and pickpocket. It is okay, thuchan, we understand your needs; it seems that you are protecting many inner and outer needs along a continuum of mixed misunderstandings.
So, thuchan, it appears that you like all kind of distortions, audio and many others. It is okay, it is you and your need to find someone to help you come clean and lose your inflated self.
Stitch.e is here to help you.
Fun Mostly,
Stitch.e |
Raul, regarding headshells with vta adjustment capability, we will need to add to the list the Thorens TP50 (the proprietary headshell made for the TP13A arm and I believe at least one other Thorens arm). Whether it's production preceded or followed the Dual I do not know.
Best, Jim |
Hello Timeltel, Sorry I did not catch your diversionary tactic from the divisionary headshell wars. |
Timeltel and Fleib, Is it not the case that the output resistance of a cartridge and its inductance are intimately related, not to say linearly related? I was under the impression that both were a function of the number of turns of wire in the coil. The coil has both a DC resistance and together with the nature of the core material, an inductance. So another factor relating the two would be the conductivity of the conductor used to wind the coil; a thicker wire would give a lower DC resistance for a given inductance, etc. This is both a question and a statement, so fire away if I am not correct. |
Dear Dean_man: Thank's to share with us that Thorens TP50/TP13A headshell with VTA capacity, certainly I was unaware of it. Thank's again.
I always posted: every single day is a learning day!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear friends: Any one of you was the lucky one that winned the ebay auction for the top of the line Astatic MF-100 gem? whom was?
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Raul, I checked this one as I do with each MM cart that you recommend. But this one was ,alas, without the stylus.
Regards, |
If it had a stylus, I would also have put a bid in for it. Having a backup stylus for my MF-100 would have been nice! |
Dear Griffithds, With the 'if' propositions we would have no reason to complain about anything. But I am wondering why so many philosopher were so gloomy. As 'if' their 'if' was somehow troublesome.
Regards, |
Dear Balkan comrade,
"If" is the root of all the worlds evils! |
Hi Lew, In general yes, but an air core coil also has inductance. If you look at speaker x-over coils, an 18GA, 2.5mH air core inductor has around .88 ohms DCR. For the same value of inductance in 14GA, DCR is around .36. With a 16GA iron core inductor you get around 10mH for .36 DCR. So you can see how adding a magnet to the mix increases inductance.
Many think that inductance is the Achilles heel of HO carts. Lowering the primary high frequency resonance of the cart has implications beyond amplitude voicing. There is a 180 degree phase shift at primary HF resonance, that usually exhibits phase non-linearity at least 2 to 3 octaves on either side of that point. Regards, |
Dear Griffithds, You are obviously an philosopher. But those 'if' you mentioned are not 'if' at all. You confused them with 'when we win we will devide the loot'. Think of Germany. The 'if' question was after the events (3 lost wars).
Regards, |
Fleib, I am not arguing the point you make at all. I was just bringing up the relationship between inductance and DC resistance, upon which you have now amplified.
But if it were as simple as that, the idea that low inductance is better, then why do I, at least subjectively, far prefer a top quality MM cartridge to any HOMC cartridge, when generally an HOMC has lower inductance than most MMs? I have owned 3 HOMC cartridges that were considered among the best of their time; all of them left me underwhelmed. |
Dear Nandric, "If" you add the total history the Germans lost even more wars, of course at some time they did not declare they were Germans but Romans...or they used other names. So what does it mean: If (!) you are loosing more wars than you win you should better stay away of starting or contribuiting to wars. |
My dear poor confused Balkan comrade,
The Germans thought, what "If" we rule the world. All its riches would be ours! There was no "loot to divide" consideration! |
Dear Griffithds, 'All its riches would be ours'. For what purpose? Never heard about the 'income distribution'? Smith and Ricardo introduced the issue long time ago. |
What "If" Nandric, what "If"? |
Hello Nandric, I thought Ricky left Cuba to get away from the redistributionist. :) |
Hello Acman, I left Yugoslavia because there was nothing to distrubute and consequently to redistribute. |
Nandric, you are so modest, I thought you left Yugoslavia to distribute peace and goodwill.. |
Lew, I don't think you can judge a cart by one parameter, unless it's outrageous. If a cart has 1100mH..... Perhaps there's a mechanical factor with HOMC, with the coils connected directly to the cantilever? Some have low tip mass but still aren't contenders. My experience is similar to yours I think, pretty good but no cigar.
In general Timeltel may be right about too high impedance. It would be interesting to correlate the electrical parameters of the top MM/MI carts and see if there is an ideal relationship, or one that tends to be indicative of the better ones. I suspect that's why the Virtuoso shines. It seems to be an AT-95 with PC-OCC wire and a wood top to damp vibrations. Whatever, the difference drops the impedance to 660 ohms. The AT-95 is 2800 ohms, I think, but w/o the wire it's nice, but doesn't have the resolution. I'm quite sure the CA would be a killer w beryllium cant and a Geyger or micro tip. I'm just not prepared to do it at this time. I'm thinking of downsizing. Regards, |
Hi Dover, You forget quotation marks by modesty. But as you of course know 'modesty'and other qualities are distributed by the (mother) nature. There is no institution to complain about our own share. However one can do something about his own nurture. I 'all modesty' I deed not bad in this respect. |
Dear Fleib, Somewhere in this thread J.Carr stated:'if I knew how to improve on MM carts I would certainly try.' So the 'issue' is obviusly complex.
Regards, |
Good Morning Nandric,
"So the 'issue' is obviusly complex."
A bit of an understatement I would say. The majority of the cartridges that have been discussed on this thread are 30+ years old. Take any one of the top MM contenders and compare it to a top multi thousand $ MC, and I would bet good money that you could easly be able to make much more sonic changes by just changing headshells than what you could hear between just the two properly set up 2 cartridges. Are we at the end of improvements, major improvements, with this design? A cartridge can only reproduce what is there on the record. Why do CD's sound so similar to are records. Is it because the problem, the real problem, resides with the microphone? You can not reproduce what is not captured by the mic! |
Good evening Griffithds, I like to discriminate between 'understanding' and 'being informed' and also between 'nature' and 'nurture'. J.Carr, for example, has the talent and the knowledge needed to design an, say,'top cart'. But one 'old master' make or 'produce' them. This is called 'scilfulness' which is more connected with experience and nurture then nature. The CD caused an decline in demand for carts so that not only many persons involved in the production lost their jobs but the 'nurture' of the new (young) persons for this job was neglected. In specific sense 'cart making' become an 'old man occupation'. Well 'occupation' and 'innovation' are connected. No wonder than that Raul and Dertonarm stated many times that there are no real innovations by our beloved cartridges.
Regards, |
Dear Griffithds, You wrote, "Why do CD's sound so similar to are records..." (Presumably you omitted the question mark that would seem to have been appropriate punctiation.) I take huge issue with your premise. I say CDs do NOT sound so similar to records. That is why we are here on this Analogue forum. Otherwise, what's the point? Microphones are a problem, too, a different problem. |
Lewm, I also used "are" instead of "our"! It was late.... I have played catch up with both formats. I have had digital systems that exceeded the playback of various tone arm/cartridge/turntable setups over the years but have always been able to (given the throwing enough money at the problem solution), elevate my analog rig to place digital in 2nd place. There have been times, now being one of them, that it is hard to (sonically speaking), say one format outshines the other. The main thing about digital that I don't like is that all you can do is hit the play button and music transpires. There's no fun in that! No adjustments to alter the output response through the use of various cartridges, different turntables, or different tone arms,(ever wonder why they used the word tone when they named that device). Perhaps it was originally thought of as a "tone" adjuster? Anyway, I enjoy analog more. I enjoy the adjustment part of it. You have seemed to have placed to much emphasis on the word similar. I did not imply same as, or close to, but just similar. Casual listing type similar. Not Oscilloscope listing type similar. There will always be those who do believe that digital sound better than analog. I'm sure a better analog rig would quickly change (for them), that opinion. Those who have a analog rig that is better than their digital system, could also have that opinion changed by throwing more money at a better digital rig. Yes, Lewm, I could throw more money at my analog rig and once again have it rise up above my digital system. I have WELL over $20,000 in just my analog rig now. Where/when will this madness end. Why MUST one system be better? I am a a point in my systems, (both digital and analog), where I get complete satisfaction out of both of them. And they do sound quite similar to me. |
That's fine. For my part, I only said that I don't hold the same opinion. For me, vinyl mimics "live" better than digital can mimic "live". For signal to noise ratio and bandwidth, digital can be superior to vinyl, but I am listening for something else in the music, call it visceral, and for another reason. However, hi-rez digital has piqued my curiosity, and I intend to investigate. |
If anyone deserves excommunication from our church than Griffithds is his name. Prease the wrong God in the wrong church. I really hope that my sons will not read his post. The reason? 'But dad if you can get the same sound from a $100 CD player what do you need 25 carts and 8 tonearms for?' They even may consult a lawyer about their rights. |
Nandric,
At least they won't have far to go for consultation! You do offer family discounts don't you?
|
Griffithds, You seem to be an expert in finding the 'Balkan part' in my post. But this is serious buseness. I am not familiar with American laws but in Europe your own 'apple of your eye' can put you in an asylum and dismiss you from parental authotity. 99% of cases is about the spending behaviour of mom and/or dad. I realy need to resell one of those tonearms to prevent disaster. |
Dear Lewm: ++++ " For me , vinyl mimics " live " better than digital can mimic " live "........ However, hi-rez digital piqued my curiosity and I intented to investigate " +++++
IMHO first step could be to be more precise than only say: " live ". We have to remember that we are talking on recordings, so there is " live " as we hear it at our seat " live " position and then there is " live " at recording microphones position and IMHO both are different.
What we have in both mediums is the " live " at micro position.
Now, for you can get a better scenario/stage on digital performance and analog performance you need to touch the digital one as DVD-A and then you can compare it. Before it is very dificult to have the whole scenario a bout.
In next thread I posted a weeks ago my thoughts/experiences/opinion on that subject ( I made in the past too on other threads. ):
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1340176293&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
My Dear Balkan Comrade,
Do you really think that be selling "only 1" of your tone arms, you will prevent disaster? You need to sell All "but" 1 of your tone arms. I will be watching audiogon for your listing to sell and I will pray that your "apples of your eye" forgive you for your evil excessive capitalist consumption! |
Dear Griffithds, You missed this one because it is not a Balkan kind. It is a 'high level' argument meant not for my sons but for the judge. He also has kids and is already on your side. But he needs an good argument because he is not Einstein. With this argument he can state: 'your dad has already shown to be very reasonable by selling one of his tonearms as a token of his good will. Your claim is dismissed as not entitled.' |