Dear Fleib, 'Ironically' there are some famous designers who still believe that paper cone sounds, uh, most 'natural'. Anyway for the mid-drivers. Prof. Scheuring,the designer of Ascendo speakers and the former owner/designer by Audio Physics Gerhard ( Caldera, Virgo II , etc.). SEAS still produce such drivers even 8'' which is actually mid/bass driver (used for Ascendo M-S; TAS November 2006). BTW I hope for you that Lew will not read your post. Otherwise you will need to travel to his place and hear for yourself what 'the best' electrostats are capable for qua bass extension and 'quality'.
Regards, |
Get full range speakers and stop fooling around with add ons super tweeters bass units. It takes more wire, electronics and adds to a already loaded signal train IMO.
Less is better and can be had with superior sound that can be enjoyed for hours on end. And as a bonus you can buy more vinyl and a stray MM cartridge here and there with the money you save.
There aperars to be some really sharp people here but the over analyzation of whats not a real complicated subject sometimes goes way over the top. Its just stereo systems not rocket science. The smart ones who make a real good living off of feeding on the newest gadget of the week are laughing all the way to the bank. Mike |
Dear Stltrains: I agree with you if and only if those full range speakers are designed with a high frequency driver that can goes to 50khz and at the other frequency extreme the crossover from woofer to midrange is no higher than between 80hz to 100hz and the prefrence is that that bass driver could be self powered.
Regards and enjoy the music, r. |
Greetings Stltrains, I welcome your invite, you must have found the baby in the King Cake in 2012. Happy Mardi. Less is more, less on on cone and more on the planar. And let's not forget Ohms Law, as one can never have enough current. Skip the Ad dig the loop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mHLvtGjum4
|
Hello Raul man if what you stated above is what you need to satisfy your ears god bless you. Im sorry but for mine not necessary.
My Tylers are flat at 8 ohms 90db across the 28 to 20k range. Sorry no cannon shots with that knock you down force but audible if I elected to hear cannon shots. I listen to classic rock blues and jazz mostly and right now im having a Etta James tribute, music lost one of the best Humphreys drums are behind Etta and are crisp sharp and clear Otis is strumming on the far right Cleanheads sax slight left Reads bass is full tight and clean slight left and Etta dead center in the room belting it out only like she can.
The stage is and deep and wide my wall is 20' long and the band is there in there own space just wonderful. No one loves music and listening to it more than me and in my opinion I don't buy in to your needs for musical enjoyment.
I do have to thank you for the threads sake MM cartrides. I have the AT 155ml playing this and the others ive be able to aquire have been like ive mentioned before enlightening and 100% entertaining. This revelation and a few others lately have opened my ears to superior sound with out the need of gagiets and added gear.
Ive had positive things said on my systems sound by some experienced ears. I think it has full clean easy to listen to sound that's all that matters.
Peace Love Rock and Roll Mike |
Tubed 1 throw me something mister. Yes it Mardi Gras time we had some king cake today. Any time would like to meet you.
Sometime as Obie One stared let the force be with you. Ive tried it and learned something don't believe everything you read. Mike |
am 10hrs into breaking in an AT20ss stylus on an AT15sla motor - understand only 30-40hrs to go - what a pain
surely there's a market for a "cartridge break-in device" that excites the stylus with the right set of frequencies to do the break-in automatically without having to play records to do it? set and forget if you will.
if anybody knows of one - please advise.
cheers,
A..3 |
Alex don't know of any breakin device for cartridges but can say my 20SS sounded great from the first moment it hit the record. |
Hi Raul,
I have a question for you. Your post on the AKG P8 stated AKG P8vdH. I took that to mean that you had sent it to vdH for a checkup. Now that I have sent the Empire 4000D off to Axel, I have been looking thru his web site. I have discovered that he sells a rebuilt AKG P8 Super Nova-vdH. Is the cartridge that Axel is selling, the one in which you reviewed or is this just a coincidence? Concidering this is just about what could be concidered a new AKG P8, the price seems pretty good! |
Dear Stltrains: As me all of us are blessed by God: we are still alive!!
I think my post needs an explanation: first than all my " ears " can be satisfied with a walkman, music does not needs nothing additional to enjoy it.
I like almost every one builded the home audio system ste´p by step and as you go up and up the road that you already walked has no return.
Today in my home system there is no return I can't satisfied my audiophile " ears " with lesser quality performance level and this not means that I can't appreciate lower and upper quality performance levels in other systems and enjoy it. Certainly I can enjoy easily your sytem or any one else.
Regards and enjoy the music, r. |
dear Griffithds: With AKG always are confusion because that AKG P8 has several different cartridges: the single P8, the P8 SuperNova , the P8 SuperNova VdH and goes on.
In that " old " post I was refering ( I think ) to the Super nova VdH. I own almost all the P8.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Ecir, agree thoroughly enjoying mine but IIRC the break-in period relates more to suspension free-up and the ability to deliver clearer deeper bass.
Thought it's been reported here that around 40hrs and things come into focus - I've notice bass improving with mine progressively.
One could imagine a stiffish belt (CF perhaps) with a groove inscribed mimicking a vinyl groove - something like a mini treadmill which the stylus rests on - just a thought that perhaps somebody can turn into reality.
A…3 |
Dear Grifithds, In addition to Rauls info. The sufix Van den Hul means that those AKG's have his stylus while other use specific AKG styli with very low mass. The problem by all of them is the hardening of the suspension as function of time and light. The spare styli are very difficult to get and if so then there is still the suspension problem. I assume that Alex can fix this problem but the question is if his price is reasonable. Ie his AKG source can only be the German ebay. AKG destroyed all their stock to avoid possible liability. I own the Super Nova with a good stylus which somehow survived. Like Raul I think that this cart is very special. Regards, |
Hello Raul yes i believe we can all agree its the music first. I can tell you this when it comes to systems like a dog chasing his tail, never to be caught IMO. The same with gear and audio gadgets every day theres newer and so called better.
I got off that train when putting together my present combination of components. Long listening sessions without fatigue just musical enjoyment with a up close being there experience. Im really not concerned with what anyone may think good or bad as my ego has taken a back seat to musical enjoyment.
I wish you all the best as you climb up the ladder. Mike |
Wow! I got a lot of people excited with my seeming anti-supertweeter sentiment. My decision-making is purely based on what makes me happy in my listening room. While I concede that a super-tweeter can add "something" to the extreme high frequencies, I choose not to use one because of the associated trade-off of a crossover network, etc. But if I were to use one with my ESL speakers, only a ribbon or a plasma-based one would do.
Fleib, I consider you one of the smartest guys here, but you have not heard my Sound Lab 845PXs with completely re-derived input electronics. Using an after-market treble step-up transformer, we (friends who are in on this, and I) have been able to do away with all capacitors and inductors at the input; the bass and treble transformers are operating with no crossover. Plus, I have modified the "mixer box" that enables two transformers to drive the 845 full-range, to use 8kV teflon capacitors. These mods have raised the impedance of the speaker to make it a very comfortable load for my OTL amplifiers, and efficiency is also dramatically improved. So in sum I now have a system with two (teflon) coupling capacitors in the signal path between the output of the phono stage and my ears; one is 0.22uF and the other is 0.1uF. When I first auditioned the finished mods, about a month ago, I was laughing and crying at the same time. This is what I have been after for 30 years. So anyway, please don't generalize about ESL bass response or ESL dynamics. If you want to hear ESL bass and "jump", come to my house.
My next project is the Beveridge 2SW with direct-drive amps. |
Dreamers rejoyce! And drool over your next possible upgrade:
http://audiohalloffame.com/go/index.php
If they could just add the Worlds Most Beautiful Cartridge Category. That Vyger Signature is just visually outrageous. One cannot help to wonder just how it might sound. |
Alex7333, If you have a Cardas test LP, bands 2a thru 2c are excellent for breaking in a cartridge. At the end of band 2c, the cartridge is prevented from going further across the LP; you have to lift it at that point and re-start it at the beginning of band 2a. Several trips though these tracks will get your suspension loose in short order. Highly recommended if you only have the patience to hang around while the LP does the work. By all means, DON'T listen to it; one beauty of it is that the rest of your system can be turned off during this process. |
I'm a longtime lurker to this thread, and thanks to it I've amassed a nice collection of great vintage carts.
One cart is an Acutex LPM 315 with a NOS stylus I purchased a while back. In my Technics 1200mk2 mid-mass arm, with the lowest mass headshell I could find, I was getting a resonance figure of around 13Hz+ according to my Shure Era V test record. Also, in comparison to some of my other carts, I found the Acutex 315 sound a little on the wooly side. I understand that this cart loves low mass, so after a few months, I've gotten my hands on an ADC LMF-2 (and am still hunting for a nice, reasonably priced Black Widow!).
Over the weekend, I mounted up the Acutex and checked resonance -- no change! Still peaking in the 12-14Hz range (note that the Shure record tops out at 14). Subjectively, I notice a LOT more bass, but that wooliness is still there. In fact, I'd say it sounds a lot WORSE overall in comparison to mounting it on the mid-mass arm.
My weekly listening time is on the very short side, but my best guess is that I'm at the 20-30 hour mark as far as break in on the stylus. Could it be that I'm still within break-in range and should keep going to see better resonance figures and cleaning up of the sound? Or is it that my 315 stylus suspension is hardened beyond stock compliance?
I fear it's the latter. |
Hi Pauze, If the cart is resonating above the recommended range (8 - 12Hz), then it normally means your arm is too light, not too heavy. However, I wouldn't put too much stock in that especially if you switched to a light arm and there was no change. I don't know the compliance of the cart but maybe you should switch back to the heavier arm. You could even try a heavier headshell. From your description I suspect you're tracking too light. I think 1.9 or 2.0g is max, maybe you could take it up a bit. Assuming that your alignment is good and the needle is clean etc, maybe you just need some more hrs on the cart? It's a common fallacy that suspensions usually will harden with time. They almost never do. Even 30 + yrs ago they used synthetic rubber compounds that don't normally dry up. Suspension failure is almost always due to failure of the suspension wire. Break-in varies from cart to cart and some take a very long time. I don't have one of these carts so that's about all I can tell you. Many people start out with max VTF and back off some after the cart is performing properly. Regards, |
Regards, Pauze: Agree with Fleib. There's a hint of what he's suggesting in your comments about resonance increasing with the lighter arm. If you have a headshell weight, you might try it. My 315 didn't settle down until, out of frustration, I isolated it from the headshell with a surfaced dime. Running it at 1.35-1.4gm VTF, a 9.5gm Acos headshell on an EPA-250, loading at 300pF seems about right.
Peace, |
This issue was mentioned earlier in the eternal thread; after 20-30 years on the shelf, the compliance of an actual sample of any MM, especially if NOS, may be quite a bit lower than the advertised value. Give it time and use and maybe it will loosen up. Or use a heavier tonearm. |
Thanks for the suggestions Fleib, Timetel, and Lewm. I'll try moving it back to the heavier arm and using a heavier headshell.
I wonder if my NOS 312 will exhibit the same shift in compliance. I have yet to mount it for any listening. I also managed to purchase a couple of the Acutex 420s before the Italian seller's stock depleted, so the light arm may still come in handy. |
Dear Pauze: Very good performer that Acutex LPM 315.
+++++ " in comparison to some of my other carts " ++++
Can you tell us which other cartridges and which phonolinepreamp are you running?
If you read my Agon review you can see that I was using a medium mass tonearm with a 12grs headshell and performs great in my system, it even performs in that way almost from the very begin: a few minutes on playback.
I know that especialy vintage cartridges maybe cartridge suspension is not the same, my experiences about were different from yours and from Timeltel ones.
Please don't be so sticky on that resonance frequency ( tonearm/cartridge. ) and more on whole cartridge set up: including load impedance/capacitance. If I was you I will re-start from the begining with frist step be cleaning the cartridge pin connectors and not only this but " cleaning " with a razor-blade like and then after the set up reset to clean perfectly the cartridge stylus: maybe you will need a good 30+ magnifier.
Yes, that more heavy headshell should help about as could be ,as an option , a different headshell build material.
Anyway, your anser to my questions can help for all we here could be more precise on each one advises.
Regards and enjoy the music, R |
Dear Don and friends: +++++ " There is one that you highlighted, has actually caught me by suprise............ That cartridge is the Astatic MF100. There is nothing in its performance that brings attention to any part of itself. It just gets out of the way and lets the music flow. It truly is a cartridge I could live with forever and be quite happy. " +++++
yes, the Astatic MF-100 ( as similar moving flux design: Glanz and Micro seiki LF-7. ) are a " surprise " for any person that heard it.
IMHO the MF-100 belongs to that very selected cartridge's group that not only are at the top in performance but to that non-WOW cartridge's characteristics as several other that are not even in the same MF-100 's league.
Other than you I can remember only Dgarretson as an owner of it and I think he likes too.
The Astatic MF-100 ( I own the 200-300 too . ) is only one of several top alternatives that almost all should looking for because is worth the effort and because this different alternative si to a different alternative and for some of you a better one that with what you are sticky for so long.
In the last 2-3 weeks I was and am listening to my Micro Seiki's cartridge and I don't feel any necessity to hear or test any other cartridge including my LOMC reference. It is hard try to find out any down side to these cartridges and I'm really a person that always ask for " perfection ".
I understand that the MF-100 came with Shibata type stylus where the MS was designed with an elliptical ( 3x7 ) one, even this both performs alike.
From some time now seems to me that many of you already losted the " emotion " to discover/experience new gems out there that are waiting for " all " of us.
Regards and enjoy the msuic, R. |
Regards, Raul: You wrote: "I know that especially vintage cartridges maybe cartridge suspension is not the same, my experiences about were different from yours and from Timeltel ones.--- "Please don't be so sticky on that resonance frequency ( tonearm/cartridge. ) and more on whole cartridge set up".
Relative to the Acutex 315, I believe we arrived at just about the same destination, a mid mass arm with nom. 12gm at the headshell, but by different routes. Nonetheless, there are practical applications for the introduction of a number of materials, not just as additional weight at the headshell but also for effecting critical mechanical damping of the cartridge.
There are many comments on cart/headshell/arm match ups but it's audiophile mysticism to suggest that, in some instances, a positive effect can be effected in either resonance reduction or the influence on voice when introducing an isolating device. Meanwhile the same practitioners who suggest shims or espouse various materials used in the fabrication of their headshells don't bat an eye when viewing cartridge isolation as gimmickry.
As doing so has a discernible effect I don't hesitate to try this when "tuning" a cart to the headshell/arm so I'm curious about how many have explored the cartridge isolation option and what their impressions are. Please don't misunderstand, this is not suggested as a universal improvement, but when faced with a cartridge one feels is not performing to its potential, experimenting with cartridge isolation is not a thing to be casually dismissed.
BTW, Lew, congratulations on the Beveridge 2SWs.
Peace, |
Lew, I thought I'd get your goat with the electrostatic rant, although I put enough qualifiers in there that you could have felt exempt. I'm sure your Sound Lab are superb. In many speakers super tweeters are just tweeters with extended response and not add-ons. Some single driver full range speakers need a little help with the extreme high end. I think that's why Fostex makes quite a few. Although you're listening in the lofty world of ESLs, I'm back to dynamic drivers. Eton kevlar woofers happen to be some of my favorites, but I'd never let you get near with your target gun. LOL, my woofers are discontinued and I'd probably have to send them to Germany to be repaired. It's a little difficult to compare cone materials on different motors but the only thing that rivals for speed is metal, which has other problems. I'm sure you're looking forward to direct drive ESLs. Hope you have someone who knows what they're doing with the amps. Regards, |
Hi Timeltel,
++++I'm curious about how many have explored the cartridge isolation option and what their impressions are++++
I do not have a tone arm that uses removable headshells. I have a Graham 2.2 that have removable arm wands. I still use (if needed), isolations options. What I use are thin lead shims that were designed for resonant reduction of phono cartridges. I bought them while in Japan, must be at least 20+ years ago. They do work. They measure 20mm long X 14mm wide X 0.5mm thick with slots on the sides for the screws to pass thru. It just slides between the mating surfaces (cartridge to arm wand), before the screws are installed. It seems that the more flimsy the cartridge body is, the better it works. When I opened the box that held the Acutex 420, I chuckled when seeing its plastic housing. The 1st thing I went looking for was the lead shim. I have never heard this cartridge without the shim installed. I have learned thru years of use when it's needed, so why waste my time in testing and confirming! It has no effect when used with the Clear Audio Virtuoso Wood (wood material top hat) or the Benz Micro Ruby 3 (ebony body). I also can not hear any difference when it is used on cartridges that use metals for their boby material(upper level Signets, AT15/20's etc.). It made such a big improvment on the Denon 103R, (plastic body), that I decided to remove the plastic body on the 103R and install the Midas alum. body ($$$) in its place. Over the years, I have tried the shim on many different cartridges. I have never found a cartridge that it would produced a NEGATIVE effect on and I long ago quit worring about the added weight this little shim gave to the arm. It is my go to device when a cartridge I'm trying will not come into focus as I expect it should! Regards Don |
Dear Fleib, My goat was not gotten. But it would be fair to say I did over-react. That is because I am so electro-ecstatic with the system as it currently sounds that I took the opportunity to brag a bit. I do concede that ESLs tend to roll off after about 15kHz, partly because they become extremely directional and partly because the impedance naturally drops to extremely low values such that no amplifier is very happy with them. But I never found that to be an issue. In fact, the aftermarket treble step-up transformer that I am using, in addition to its other virtues, has incredible extreme hf response, in terms of quality of sound. Cymbals and triangles are to die for. When I owned KLH9s was the only time I felt the urge to augment the treble response of an ESL, and that was because the 9s start to beam at even 2 to 3kHz.
There is nothing broken about the Beveridge amplifiers, but they appear to be original, which means all parts are about 30 years old. Time to refresh them. And in the process, I hope to upgrade some parts of the circuit, with the help of the very same Bill Thalmann who worked on my Denon DP80 and on my Technics tt's. (I can replace parts myself, but I am insecure about tweaking a solid state circuit; the Bev amps use an SS input stage and a tube output stage.)
This is all OT, and I apologize. By now this thread has gotten to be more like a Twitter or Facebook account than a forum. Which is cool, IMO. |
Dear Lewm, Roger Modjesky of Music Reference worked for Beverage at the time of the production of your speakers. I have visited with him on several occations and he has spoken about Beverage equipment with great pride. I would suspect that he knows as much as anyone about your speakers. He is in Santa Barbara California. He manufactures an ESL himself. |
Hi Raul,
Have yet to try the 315 with added mass (hopefully tonight). I'll report my findings when I do -- I'm hoping for a very nice listening session if I can get my setup right!
My favorites and go-to carts are, in no particular order:
Audio Technica AT20 with ATN20SS Signet TK9e Signet TK7SU with either TKN3 or ATN20SS styli Shure V15 Type 3 with JICO SAS ADC XLM Mk III
I have many other carts, which also include a few MCs, but the above are my current "ones to beat" and I like them all for different reasons.
My setup is altogether very modest -- I run a Cambridge Audio 640p as my preamp. I do feel my preamp is a limiting factor at the moment, and I am in the process of putting together a battery powered pre. My listening space is a small home studio in a spare room, and is acoustically treated with bass traps and side/rear/ceiling absorbers. The speakers are two sets of active monitors that I alternate depending on my mood.
As a long time DJ, I'm a recent convert to all things audiophile, and am learning to properly play the jazz and soul LPs I've collected through the years. I still have a lot to learn and experience in this hobby. Since taking up a cart collection, one of my favorite things to do is listen to the different carts and train myself to recognize how each cart presents the music differently. |
Hi Rich, Yes, RM designed the Beveridge amplifiers way back when he was a youth. |
Dear Pauze: Well the phono stage is " normally " a limiting factor and your 640p is a decent one against other higfher price phono stages. I never heard to that Cambridge device but looks fine on specs. Maybe a real limiting factor is its fixed 220pf on capacitance that does not permit changes of value to try a better match with different cartridges.
I hope that with a different headshell you can enjoy the 315 that's better performer that what you already experienced.
IMHO the 315 is easily at the same 20SS performance level and IMHO better that the ADC or those Signets but the TK10ML SeriesII.
Btw, that Shure/Jico SAS is surprising good.
+++++ " Since taking up a cart collection, one of my favorite things to do is listen to the different carts and train myself to recognize how each cart presents the music differently. " +++++
agree with that. That kind of different experiences help you to understand in better way and to learn deepest on the analog overall subject. IMHO what makes a difference for the better or worst is the cartridge set-up and other than the electrical parameters ( impedance/capacitance. ) you need to trained on VTA/SRA and Azymuth cartridge set up: to find out the each cartrisge spot on is a " hard task " full of patience and good ears as understanding of sound/music reproduction and how should be the sound we perceive trough our system.
You are not the only that " have to learn a lot ", IMHO all of us are still learning and we learn almost every single day about so many audio subjects.
IMHO one of the last " frontiers " on audio knowledge is about distortions, to be aware of and to discern about each one kind of. This distortion frontier is a challenge to all of us because things are that we are accustom to several distortions in audio that we took as part of the music/system performance and not as a distortions. Problem could be that because we are accustom with several distortions when some of it " disappear or goes lower " we don't like what we hear.
Regards and enjoy the music, R.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Rnadell: RM IMHO is one of the few " big names " on electronics design and in specific tube ones.
Last time I heard a RM electronics was at S.Doobins's place where his amplifier was running a pair of MBL speakers with really good aplomb that showed no tube signature. Even that was my first exposure to that audio system I can say I like it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
WOW! This is the most informative thread on the planet! Thank you very much everybody.
Al |
Raul, Those small(er) MBLs must have been the ones I subsequently heard at RMAF in 2010. I agree; that was a very nice sounding system, one of my favorites at the show. And Dobbins proved to be a very nice guy. I listened to two cartridges, each mounted on a separate Reed tonearm, both of which were mounted on his "The Beat" turntable. I think it was an Ortofon A90 vs an Allnic Puritas or a SoundSmith Sussuro. This was one of the few rooms at the show where one could compare two cartridges using the same downstream components throughout. |
Regards All,
For those of you with the Shure ML140HE, there is a supply of the original NOS N140HE stylus on ebay under cartridges/needles. NOS's don't come up very often. Get it while you can!
Regards, Don
|
Hi Raul,
Have a question? Back on 10/24/11, you posted something you were concidering. That was to send 20+ of your cartridges (that you had multiples of), off for a cantliver/stylus upgrade to compare against the originals. Is this something that you have done (sent them off)? If not, I hope you have not given up on this ideal. I for one would concider this comparision quite interesting. I understand the cost of this experiment would not be cheap! Perhaps just a few to start? Regards, Don |
Dear Griffithds: Till today I made it on two of them, one was the LPM 315 and the other the Sonus Dimension 5. In both cartridges the VdH upgrades performs were better than the originals. We have to consider here that on the VdH work was a " refresh "/fine tunning to the cartridges suspension nad this sole fact makes a difference usually for the better.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Raul,
You have sent several cartridges to VdH for "refresh" only. You have also sent cartridges that had the cantiliver/stylus replaced. This would also have to include a suspension "refresh". Surely they don't reuse the old suspension, do they? Are we going to have to compare three cartridges, one original, one with "refresh only", and one with a cantiliver/stylus replacement and suspension "refresh", to be able to determine what each level change acomplishes? Based on all that has been said in this forum, perhaps in most cases, it is better to just "refresh", a known upper level cartridge which has old suspension. What bothers me is my findings with my two Virtuoso's. One being the red original that I know to have good suspension, and the other, a black with the Sound Smith basic cantiliver/stylus replacement which must have included a suspension "refresh". I hear a very positive improvement with the Sound Smith version. Well worth the money spent. This improvement has to be from the cantiliver/stylus change only. If the SS cartridge only had the "refresh" done on it, I do not think I could have heard any difference between my two cartridges. Both would of had good suspensions! Should we, the buyers of old cartridges, just assume that they all need to be sent off for a "refresh"? If the suspension in these old cartridges are not bottoming out, do we assume everything is OK. Would the new (modern), materials being used in the suspension "refresh" make it worthwhile to even send these off these OK cartridges for suspension replacement? Looking forward to a reply from you or anyone else with opinions on this.
Regards, Don |
Dear Don, What the heck is a "refresh"? Raul really has not defined it clearly. I hope he will comment further.
In general, does it surprise anyone that a new cantilever/stylus, which must also include a new suspension (or a "refresh") would be an improvement over the originals on a 20 to 30-year-old cartridge that was never top of the line in the first place? To me, this is almost a no-brainer, unless the person doing the work was incompetent, which is not the case for any of the companies under discussion.
Similarly, some one of us said that the cantilever/stylus on the Clearaudio Virtuoso is nothing special to begin with (made by AT, alu cantilever, etc, etc), so it also does not surprise me that a higher quality cantilever/stylus from Axel or from SS would be a marked upgrade to the Virtuoso. Both Nandric and you (Don) attest to that fact. |
Hi Lewm,
There was someone on this forum who was going to send a Virtuoso off to SS for his TOTL cantiliver/stylus upgrade. I do not recall ever hearing a update to that experiment? I wonder how it turned out? I have come to understand the "refresh", is nothing more than a suspension replacement ("O"ring/donut replacement, perhaps a readjustment to realign the stylus). Raul, if it is more or even less than I have stated, please enlighten us to the facts! Lewm, I was honestly quite susprised that SS basic cantiliver/stylus upgrade ($150), made the amount of improvement that it did. Same cantiliver material, same stylus shape/profile. This was not a 20 or 30 year old cartridge. Why would someone who buys a $1000 cartridge, be expected to send it off for a $150 cantiliver/stylus replacement to get the best out of it. Is there any cartridge manufactured that does not benefit from someone elses cantiliver/stylus replacement? Are all cartridges just a product in development, to be completed by the end user thru a aftermarket source? I know I'll never buy another new Virtuoso without it going thru SS first for the basic $150 replacement! To me, that's a no brainer! Clear Audio could have built this SS version of the Virtuoso for far less the $150 extra and would of had a far better cartridge to sell. It wasn't like they were filling a price point in their line up! The Virtuoso was at one time the TOTL MM for ClearAudio. For just a few more dollars, they could of had a giant slayer. I think they just missed the boat on this one! Regards, Don |
Lewm, that is an interesting observation "the cantilever/stylus on the Clearaudio Virtuoso is nothing special to begin with". One wonders why on earth Clearaudio chose the AT95 motor in the first place, and what could have been with an AT cartridge a little higher on the evolutionary scale? It must have met specifications for a wide range of applications by just changing the stylus and wood/metal mount. Having recently secured a NOS sealed in the box a Virtuoso Ebony I now understand why these units are so hard to come by and easy to get rid of. Clearaudio only manufactured/produced the Ebony body for Marantz turntables for a ltd duration of time. Yes, for those still seeking a V Wood Ebony - you get it, find the turntable and you will find the Ebony. I also question why Clearaudio refuses to print stylus specifications and configuration. My sealed unit is without the metal mounting plate and having a curious mind am wondering if anyone else has mounted in this fashion and does it sound better? How will a Maestro stylus configuration on a V Wood sound? I am also pondering if anyone can tell me of the three woods, Ebony, Fernambuk and Santine which one sounds the warmest? Clearly this cartridge could sound even more outstanding with not only an upgraded cantilever but an upgraded stylus as well. Hyper Eliptical or Shibata. Raul in your opinion is this motor worthy of a conical? |
Hi Tubed1,
It is my understanding, that the Maestro is a Virtuoso Wood with a different cantiliver/stylus and more wood top hat. It would be my quess that the cantiliver/stylus brightened up the cartridge to much so they added aditional wood to tone it down!
Regards, Don |
The reality is these cartridge manufacturers want to sell as many as possible, that means producing products that will sound great, even in suboptimal set ups ( which in my experience includes many audiophile's ). Look how many ways are there really to cut a cat in cartridge design - these guys are producing designs to a flavour that they think will sell, accuracy is not the primary goal. If you want crazy, when I was in the audio business at customers requests we sent 90% of Koetsu's to Garrots for tuning and installation of microscanner stylus. We even had customers buy brand new Koetsu Rosewoods and have us send them straight to Garrots before using. Why - 1. Microscanner tip pulled more info from Koetsu. 2. On the stone bodied Koetsu's the cartridge motor was held in with paper shims. We had some where the cartridge motor simply fell out while playing. Garrots used to glue down the generators. Why didn't Sugano change - he didn't need to. |
Hi Dover,
I am constantly amazed at what trade secrets get revealed on this forum. Thank you for that Koetsu's/Garrot Bros. input! BTW. I own one of those Garrott Bros. cartridges. The P77 and concider something special indeed! Thanks again.
Regards, Don |
fyi -Re Garrot P77 - I heard this cartridge in the Garrot Bros own system which was an old tt with a heavily modified Nad 3020 and home made electrostatics built by Brian, John's brother. The odd thing was that in their system the P77 sounded like a moving coil, and the moving coils we listened to sounded in their system dull and uninteresting. They were very much of the view that moving coils with that "nasty top end" were for "soft rolled off" valve preamps and their MM was for more accurate solid state preamps. But I have to say dinner with the Garrots was fish and chips with some herbal drink that was a bit suspect. |
I bought two Koetsu Urushi's from a dealer in Akihabara, the electronic district in Tokyo, via the auspices of my son who speaks perfect Japanese. We had to wait two weeks for them to be made on special order. Of the two, one had a "fairly" straight cantilever, but the other was grossly deviated to one side. I did not really notice the defect until I got back to the US. But I sent the defective one back to that dealer (via my very tolerant son, again) and he arranged for me to get a replacement, without batting an eyelash, like he was used to it. (This was a tribute to Dan's ability to be charming and polite in Japanese, I cannot help thinking.) I do love the cartridge, but i thought the "quality control" was indefensible, which is to say there was no control of quality. I actually think that the lower end cartridges made by mainstream companies, like Shure, Grado, Denon, AT, etc, are more likely to be consistent from sample to sample than are the fancy ones. Lyra and Transfig may be exceptions to that generalization. |
Regarding the Virtuoso. I am sure that Raul mentioned somewhere that Peter Lederman (?) told him that the stylus of the (original) Virtuoso was mediocre. According to Fleib all Clearaudo MM carts share the same 'corpus' and/or 'generator' but differ qua cantilever and styli. Axel 'moded' my two Virtuoso's with 'pressure fited nude line' stylus in a tapered aluminum cantilever, while the second one was fitted with a boron cantilever with hyper elliptical stylus. What he prefix 'hyper' means I have no idea except the price (in comparison with 'simple elliptical'). To my embarrassment I must confess not to be able to hear any difference between the two. The added emabarrasment is the fact that boron/elliptical combo was more expensive. I hate it to pay to much for anything.
Regards, |
Yes the CA MM all share the same generator. I think the more expensive ones have closer tolerances. Once again, they do NOT have the same motor as the AT-95. They have the same body, cu and output. They might all have the same tip, a bonded .3 x .7 elliptical(?) on a straight alum cantilever. Stylus assemblies appear to be made by AT. Maestro is boron/micro, same cu and might also made by AT. Soundsmith $150 upgrade is tapered aluminum cantilever and a nude .3 x .7 elliptical. Obviously, this isn't an upgrade for Maestro.
Nandric, It's a shame that your miscommunication with Axel resulted in a HE tip on boron. I would have guessed that it would still be more refined than the aluminum/LC. We still don't know what a Maestro stylus sounds like on a Virtuoso. I suspect it would outperform them all. Regards, |
Hi Nandric,
Good to hear some feedback on the Virtuoso changes. I can understand not hearing any difference between two different stylus profiles, but I'm alittle susprise at your comment concerning the two cantiliver materials. I wonder if the the wood top is absorbing/canceling out the suttle differences the two should present? Were you able to do a comparision with a stock/original cartridge and one of your "improved" versions? The ideal of a pressure fitted stylus has caught my attention and is something I have concidered to do with mine. |