So suddenly, there seems to be a trend for Uber-LOMC cartridges released with Diamond Cantilevers...š± As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?! Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever. Then thereās the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.
But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge. Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ācheapā brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe". The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus š¤Æšš½
Iāve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE. Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding. To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations š
So how does it sound.....? Is there a difference to the standard XL-88? Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential? Is the Pope a Catholic....?
This cartridge simply āblows my mindā...which is hard to do when Iāve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables š¤Æ As Syntax said on another Thread:-
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics
Iāll leave it at that for the time being. I will soon upload to YouTube, the sound comparisons between the two Sony versions on my HEAR MY CARTRIDGES THREAD.
But now Iāve bought myself a nightmarish scenario....... There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge! There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge! Each time I play records with it, I am ākillingā it a bit more š„“š„ If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ālistening sessionsā š¤Ŗ But failing this.....I canāt help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
@nandric, I'm not an expert or technician so I may well be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the design of the Victor with the coils 'direct coupled' to the stylus bears some resemblance to Ikeda's design, which also has the coils very close to the stylus, while even discarding a cantilever. The Decca is another variation on this 'direct' theme, although not of the MC kind. Ā As is the Neumann DST, the most elusive (and bulky) member of this species.
Whether or not this presumed design resemblance translates to similar sonic characteristics remains to be heard. Which is one of the reasons I'm so curious to hear the Victor. As well as the Neumann, but that will probably never happen.
Interestingly, I learned that the designer of the Victor (a gentleman by the name of Mr. Kanno) is the same person responsible for the Phasemation cartridges. I happen to own a Phasemation P-3G (now updated as PP-300), which is a massive overachiever for its modest price. I find it interesting if I can detect a 'designer signature' across various generations of their cartridges. Sometimes there is, sometimes not.
Dear @halcro : You made comments on some of my posts but not when I " ask " if you preserve the 8000 effective length, offset angle and overhang when you use straigth headshells in that straigth tonearm.
Regarding the same issue the 8000 design is triaxial balanced and direct from SAEC they say:
" The 8000 ST is perfectly balanced on its X, Y and Z axis, wich converge at a single point for perfect lateral balance. ""
That critical balance and the bearing were designed taking in count the length of the tonearm and its mass according the use of the SAEC dedicated headshell.
The S3 FR headshell you said is the one used with the 88D is more than the double the weigth than the SAEC one and that over-weigth stays where coul do more harm: where MOI is affected the more.
Unfortunatelly I sold my 8000 and I canāt be sure which kind of additional distortions could be generated using that kind of straigth headshell with the 88D.
SAEC tonearms were famous in Japan for its " live/detailed " ( that some times means higher distortions and not a true live or detailed sound. ) kind of sound against the MS MAX 282 and this is not my opinion but what the japanese people opinions on those old times: they had preferences by the SAECs vs MS MAX that IMHO is way better tonearm design and way better performer.
About the SAEC knife bearing Dr Sao Win that was TT and cartridge manufacturer ( between other audio items. ) in his manual of his LOMC cartridge we can read a warning to not use his cartridge in a knife tonearm bearing designs.
Anyway, your coments about thet S3 along the 8000 are welcome especially because you posted the 88D is your HG. Do you already tested the 88D in other tonearm/TT or wit the SAEC headshell ?
My dear Slavic brother, āābigāā, āālongāā etc. descriptions are logical not āāsoundāā. The reason is that presupposed comparisons are described as properties of objects. Being āālong in Hollandāā means something totally different than being āālong in Greece or Italyāā. I was long in Serbia but am shorter in Holland. I.e. relational sentences canāt be described with āāsubject is predicate āā form. You have also try the same āāmethodāā with āālittleāā suggesting that very little glue between the stylus and cantilever is as āāgoodāā as no glue at all. I love you but the truth even more . The same stated Aristoteles about Plato: āāamicus Plato sed veritas amicitatāā. Does āāvery short pipeāā mean no pipe at all?
no worries, i have all types of cantilevers with all kinds of different combinations such as joint pipe vs. no joint pipe; glue vs. no glue ... etc. Heard it all before, just tried to help a bit to the readers with more images displayed the difference even in the same type from different manufacturers/designers.
Dear @edgewear : I owned both: the Rex and the 1000 and performs different and both are not shy in the low registers.
The problem in the halcro system was the reason about those low registers he did not like it. Somewuere down there: tonearm, TT or in another system link.
I think you will like the JVC/Victor 1000 but IMHO nothing to die for but maybe in your system could be true synergy in between, I hope be that way.
@edgewear, ''Based on its construction and design I would expectĀ ''it'' to have some similarities with my Ikeda 9 Rex''. I also own Ikeda's Rex but need to guess what you mean with ''similar'' ? Do you mean Halcro's Decca?Ā
@best-groove: good to know Daniele can fix it if thereās a problem. I hope it wonāt be needed, but thanks for the tip.
Yes and and also @halcro can sleep peacefully and use the XL88D without fear. In my country Cartridgelab has diamond cantilevers/stylusĀ for when it will be consumed
How many Victor Direct Couple MC did you fix with him ? Even Mr. Peter Ledermann (SoundSmith) told me itās not guaranteed and more like a project, so you never know is it possible to fix or not. I have a few non working samples, one with one channel, another one is dead.
A tiny "printed coil" located right on top of the cantilever, very close to the stylus. Everything is very fragile with this cartridge and repair is difficult. It is not like any conventional cartridge.
Yes, I'm eagerly anticipating its arrival and will report my findings. Based on its construction and design I would expect it to have some similarities with my Ikeda 9 Rex (which is definitely NOT shy in the lower registers). We'll see how it turns out.Ā
This was my first Yahoo auction, but I'll admit I'm less brave than you are. I know a trusted person in Japan doing the bidding for me and handling the transaction. He reads the Japanese description (the English translation as you say is useless) and will even contact the seller for more info if needed.
@best-groove: good to know Daniele can fix it if there's a problem. I hope it won't be needed, but thanks for the tip.
My dear Slavic brother, ''big'', ''long'' etc. descriptions are logicalĀ not ''sound''. The reason isĀ that presupposed comparisons are described as properties of objects. Being ''long in Holland'' means something totally different than being ''long in Greece or Italy''. I was long in Serbia but am shorter in Holland. I.e. relational sentences can't be described with ''subject is predicate '' form. You have also try the same ''method'' with ''little'' suggesting that very little glue between the stylus and cantilever is as ''good'' as no glue at all. I love you but the truth even more . The same stated Aristoteles about Plato: ''amicus Plato sed veritas amicitat''. Does ''very short pipe'' mean no pipe at all? Ā
There is however one other kind of āābetweenāā which is never mentioned. The so called āājoint pipeāā on which also the coils and tension wire are fastened. This part is usually made from aluminum. By many carts one can see this part just behind the cantilever.
Yep. I can only illustrate it with a picture made with another cartridge, but the structure of the cantilever is the same as Sony, the difference is Sapphire instead of diamond, but the "joint pipe" is just like this.
While SONY has this very long joint pipe, some other cartridges with Diamond cantilever like Dynavector comes with very short joint pipeĀ (more like a collar) and diamond cantilever is much shorter.
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO . """"
perhaps someone in his turntable and system does not find it so marvelous..."""
Rigth, halcro opinion is only his opinion.
In audio we need to be a very knowledge man with full expertise and understanding not only on sound/home audio but in MUSIC too to give or post " the best " on anything.
Other problem is that each one of us normally have different music/sound priorities and this fact makes " things " more complex to find out a true " the best " of audio items.
I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear.
I remember another comment from J.Carr who said the MC-L10 is the most balanced between 3 direct couple type from Victor. It is also the most reasonably priced one (imo). I have MC-1 and MC-L10 and like them very much on Victor and Sony tonearms. It is hard to find a working sample, even for the most expensive MC-L1000 one channel malfunction is a common problem.
BTW, I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear. Do you have this and if so, what do you think of it?
Congratulations Edgewear š Yes...I owned the VICTOR MC-L1000Ā complete with original PACKAGING AND PAPERS. An incredible cartridge with its COILS AT THE TIP..... I found its presentation from the Midrange upwards to be perhaps the most realistic and stunning I think I've ever heard. The only negative I found (and hopefully it's not endemic to all examples of the model) is a reticence in the Bass presentation which after a while....I couldn't live with š¢ So regretfully I had to sell it š„ŗ I will be interested to hear your impressions...?
The Yahoo Japan auction site looks like a very DANGEROUS place for someone like myself to visit! lol.
Uber, it's not for the faint-hearted š¬ but the first 'auction' is the most fearful. After that...with more experience, it becomes easy and exciting. I list my cartridge 'Preferences' with HiFi Shark and every day they send me an Email with Links to any of those cartridges they have found on any site on the Internet. 80% of the Links they send me are for Japan Yahoo....understandable as most of the cartridges I desire were made mostly for the Japanese market. Once you sign up to Aleado...the Administrator of Japan Yahoo....you have to deposit funds into your Account via PayPal before you can bid at any Auction. This scares most people but it's perfectly safe I've found. You 'Bid' your max. amount but they only put the amount needed to beat the highest offer by another Bidder. Communication with Aleado is excellent and prompt and if you 'win' the Auction.....their packing of the goods is unbelievable š¤Æš The only caveat about the Site is......the 'automatic' English translation of the Japanese description of the 'Goods' is USELESS!!!! That's why one needs to be able to assess the product from careful examination of the pictures supplied.
Iāve heard Sony XL-55 with Boron cantilever and did not like it at all.
@halcro
my mistake, but anyway a sample of my ex flat mate was not impressive against my Zyx Airy III at that time, compared on my EPA-100
the one i like better is Sony XL-50 MM with Boron Pipe cantilever, i have it NOS, very nice for the money. Have you tried ?
Neither the Sony XL-55 nor XL-88 (in standard form) had Boron cantilevers.
Youāre right. So it was even more compicated cantilever on the Sony XL-55 MC sample i did not like :)) The cantilever on XL-55 MC was "A triple-layer carbon clad cantilever using a special light alloy is used." The next one on PRO model was "A triple-structure carbon clad cantilever using beryllium / aluminum / carbon fiber is used. " But i never tried a PRO version. On XL-88 we can see the same "Triple cladding of beryllium / aluminum / carbon fiber is used to achieve high rigidity and light weight." And on your XL-88D we have Gemstone "cantilever integrated super elliptical diamond needle". On all models only elliptical tip :((
150K Yen =$714 =$2223 (today)
7500 DM =$4400 =$13700 (today)
Actually the price for XL-88D in the 80ās was 150 000 YEN as you can see here. (Same price for Dynavector KARAT Nova 13D), very expensive for its time, but not as much as you think.
I donāt know why do you think the price was 7500 DM ($4400) in the 80ās ? In Japan the price for XL-88D was just 150 000 YEN ($714) in the 80s, not $4400, i donāt think the difference between Japan and German retailers is so big, canāt be true!
I think you mixed up two different models, there was a regular XL-88D and limited edition version that was made in very small quantity! J.Carr has mentioned this mega rare model on aāgon years ago. I think that model was expensive, but not the XL-88D that you have.
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO . """"
perhaps someone in his turntable and system does not find it so marvelous or it could be a cartridge that, in any context, holds the leadership, remains a super queen unchallenged..... in short where everyone agrees.
Btw, the 55 models seen the " ligth " before the 88 and were in the 55 where we can find out the famous 8 figure at the coils that shared to the 88 models.
I wonder why the 88 has higher output than the 55: 0.4mv vs 0.2mv in the 55. Other than that differences are at the cantilever material and stylus shape. The Sony model that comes with the same 88 stylus shape is the 44L.
I own the Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum with DC. Gift from my lady.
Speed and brilliance without glare or astringency.Ā Have never heard a cartridge like it, and although the Miyajima Zero is awfully good, it lacks the ultimate refinement of the Koetsu.
Congratulations Halcro. Glad you like it. And welcome to the club!
No worries, I was one of those cowards who folded at $1000. š Double that amount is a pretty sum, but I have no doubt it will stand comparison with any of today's $10k plus cartridges. Looking at it this way it's still a bargain. š
BTW, I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear. Do you have this and if so, what do you think of it?
I have a Koetsu stone with and without diamond cantilever, and indeed it offers notably increased detail, speed, and dynamics without reducing or altering the Koetsuās musicality or flow - in fact it even helps those attributes. However if your system relies upon the top end reduction of a traditional Koetsu, the diamond models have a bit less of that.
Itās not a "single piece" - the cantilever is made of a different (lower) quality of diamond than stylus, as it has a very light greenish/gray tint. Solid, not pipe. The stylus appears to be fused (I donāt see any glue) into a hole cut into the cantilever. The diamond models have slightly shorter cantilevers than boron and ride a little lower.
Theyāre a good option for those who love the Koetsu sound above all others, and want the next level of that. Itās available as an optional upgrade for any of the Platinum models (including RSP), but of course doesnāt come cheap. I'm not going to say they're an "essential" upgrade for Koetsu lovers, but I was impressed when I first heard it.Ā
Dear @halcro : I forgot the Audio Note IO Limited for 160K Yens.
"" (according to Raul) ..."" , well itās according the official Japanese audio Bible ( hard paper. ).
""" Another case of:-
Believe what he says at your own risk.. """#
You canāt stay with the mouth closed when I post in your thread and I say this because your statement was and is exactly dedicated to you. You gave wrong/untrue information and if some one ( in this case my self. ) did not disclosed all of us believe your words " at our own risk.
When some one post something in any thread gave us opinions that we can take " at our own risk ". So why re-mark that because my post? ? ? ?
Btw, I figure out that the straigth headshells you use in the 8000 straigth arm wand permits that preserving the 306 tonearm effective length mount the cartridges with the correct ( around 18Ā° ) offset angle and overhang. At least you posted about with out explanation.
I don't know what was meant by one-piece stylus and cantilever, but, if it really means starting with a single diamond that is then cut to form the stylus and cantilever, that diamond would have to be pretty low-grade to start with in order for the price to be anything but astronomical.Ā High quality stylus are made from decent quality natural stones with the cutting and shaping done so that the lattice structure is properly oriented to maximize resistance to wear along the contact points. You could not really do this with a truly one-piece stylus-cantilever diamond.Ā Ā
Does anyone know if the diamond cantilevers were solid pieces or a hollow tube?Ā For any given mass, a tube would be the way to go to maximize strength and rigidity (better to have a fat tube than a thin solid piece of the same mass).
Given that there are buyers out there that will pay almost any price for something special, I would expect that, if diamond cantilevers where inherently superior, many of the premium builders would be offering that feature on their ultra expensive models.Ā Ā
@best-grooveĀ I don't buy ANY 'used' cartridges without good-quality closeup shots of the styli š§ I don't trust anyone's admission of 'hours-of-use'....š¤„
I didn't understand this sentence....
Haha.....it means if you're really desperate for something (begging for it)...you can't be fussy šš½
you canāt buy a new cartridge that sounds better than the XL88D?
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO š¤ The STANDARD XL-88 is itself, the best cartridge Iāve heard in my system with the $10,000 AS-PALLADIAN and $5,000 LONDON DECCA REFERENCE as ārunners-upā. The XL-88D is the āHoly Grailā for me.... Itās the elusive āperfectā cartridge for which Iāve been searching over the last 10 years! I can truly state that my quest is over...š and if I buy another cartridge....itās because Iām really really sick š¤® Yes....$2,000 is a lot for a āusedā cartridge, but how much do you think āusedā Lyra cartridges are selling for? Or Koetsu Stone Bodies or Colibri Master Signatures or top Ortofon MCs? Donāt forget....the XL-88D cost $13,700 at todayās prices so I consider $2,000 a āstealā š
Was the original box and paper provided with the purchase?
Unfortunately not.....but beggars canāt be choosers š„“ Iāve seen a few XL-88Ds for sale with box and papers....but the cantilevers and styli did not look likeĀ THIS!
I've heard Sony XL-55 with Boron cantilever and did not like it at all.
The XL-55 and XL-88 are about as DIFFERENTĀ from each other as any cartridges can be š¤ Not only in SIZEĀ and SHAPE....but particularly soundwise. The XL-55 has a distinctly 'coloured', warm and robust presentation...not dissimilar to the vintage 'A' Style SPUs. The XL-88 in contrast...is neutral, dynamic, detailed, transparent and nimble.
@halcro I ask if for $ 2000 (crazy expense for a used cartridge but maybe youĀ slipped from hand the keyboard control) you canāt buy a new cartridge that sounds better than the XL88D? Was the original box and paper provided with the purchase?
I owned the MC1000 by AT that came exactly the same: cantilever and stylus in one piece.
Unfortunately there is no such model listed on Vinyl Engine nor does the World Wide Web reveal its existence. The AT Catalogue lists the MC-2000 II with aluminium cantilever, the MC-3000 II also with aluminium, the MC-5000 with sapphire and the MC-7500 with aluminium. There is mention of the AT-1000 with 'diamond cantilever' but no claims nor evidence of 'one-piece cantilever/stylus'. In the absence of ANY photos, descriptions or confirming evidence of its existence on the entire WWW.....the above statement appears to be a fabrication.Ā Ā
In those times the Sony had a price of 150K Yens when my AT was 200K but the AT was not the only cartridge more expensive than the Sony you own, the following top of the line were more expensive too: Supex D for 270K Yens, Highphonic for 158K, Jeweltone for 200K, Physics for 250K, Final for 230K, the Dyna at similar price than the Sony and the Sonovox for only 330K !
IN 1980
150K Yen =$714 =$2223 (today)
200K Yen =$952 =$2964 (today)
270K Yen =$1286 =$4000 (today)
158K Yen =$752 =$2341 (today)
250K Yen =$1192 =$3705 (today)
230K Yen =$1095 =$3409 (today)
330K Yen =$1571 =$4892 (today)
That doesn't seem right...? The most EXPENSIVE cartridge in the world (according to Raul) cost just $4892 at today's rate š¤Ŗ
was this the recent Yahoo auction? If so, you overbid me (and others of course).
Dear Edgewear..I trust that you weren't the 'underbidder' at that auction, for if you were.....I hate you with a vengeance š It was a five-day auction and there were a half dozen bidders slowly increasing the price till it was $600 on the last day. I waited till there was 20 minutes left and hit it.....every previous bidder folded at $1000 until there was five minutes to go. Suddenly a new bidder arrived who exceeded my maximum bid and pushed it to $1700. I reassessed...and increased my max. to $1900 but he topped that. I had one last go increasing my max to $2100 and his top was $2000 š„³ Had he known I was 'maxed out'...the cartridge would have been his for $2150 š„µ But had he not appeared at the last minute....I would have had it for $1000.....š
Dyna is an example of that because Dyna today top of the line models just does not use diamond.
"""Ā
and technological achievement,... "", well Sony was not alone, I owned the MC1000 by AT that came exactly the same: cantilever and stylus in one piece.
Regarding the " statement " you pasted about the Koetsu stonesĀ and that's your way of thinking too is not true/wrong.
The Ortofon Anna Diamond is not exactly the Anna as are not the K siamond stones or any other very high price today diamond cantilever cartridges.
Its very high price comes because the diamond models ( like the Anna or whatever. ) even that looks similiar but the cantilever to its " top little brothers " are manufactured with extremely tigth tolerances than the other models even in the cartridge bodies ( sometimes reinforced for less body developed vibrations. ), choosed by hand the best stylus tips ( in the Ortofon the Replicant: they choose the more accurated . ). Same grade of tigth tolerances and accuracy about cartridge suspension, coils and electrical parameters. The cartridge overall equilibrium is way better than the non diamond cantilever similar models.Ā
I took those information directkly from AST engineers years ago when ask for the high price in my AT sample.
In the other side: """Ā
it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world ...""", well this tstatement unfortunatelly is untrue too.
In those times the Sony had a price of 150K Yens when my AT was 200K but the AT was not the only cartridge more expensive than the Sony you own, the following top of the line were more expensive too: Supex D for 270K Yens, Highphonic for 158K, Jeweltone for 200K, Physics for 250K, Final for 230K, the Dyna at similar price than the Sony and the Sonovox for only 330K !
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