Which speakers will fill 5,000 cubic ft coherently
In porevious threads I've bemoaned the fact that my Kharma 3.2 FEs don't fill the room, 17 X 23 X 15 ft ceilings with a vertical enough soundstage, as though the speakers are literally too small. I have been advised to raise them,which I have done, , I have told to get taller, line arrays, even given names of custom speaker makers. Any specic recommendations from those that have had, and have conquered, this issue.
So now I am looking at speakers that look great (WAF), have a small footprint, have 13 0hm impedance and can stand 6-12" from the wall - Selah Audio Alexandrite. Long build-time, but who's in a rush? Any comments?
Tube amps employ an output transformer to match the high output impedance of their tubes to the lower input impedance of the speakers being used. These amplifiers have at least two separate binding posts for (usually) 4 or 8 ohms depending on the number of windings in the transformer being used at that impedance. OTL (OutputTransformerLess)amplifiers do not have output transformers to adapt them to low impedance speakers. Sometimes an outboard transformer like the Speltz is used to compensate for a native mismatch but, as I stated earlier, that rather defeats the purpose of having an OTL.
Regardless of claims to the contrary, you will always get better results by optimizing component matching. OTL amps are better matched with HIGH impedance speakers. This does not mean that other speakers will not work but it does mean that they will not be ideal mates for your amplifiers.
>>3-19-08 Tvad: I'm interested to know how you or Ralph are determining that the Woodmere speakers have a benign impedance curve since the minimum impedance spec of the Woodmere is not published on the Tyler webpage. Ty only publishes the nominal impedance spec.<<
Based on Ty telling me it is an easy load and drops to low-mid 3's.
I'm not arguing about any of your points, tvad, just reporting what Ralph said based on Ty's conversation and Ralph's knowledge of the speakers.
What this implies, if taken literally, is that no 4 ohm speaker should be driven by a tube amp. Period. I'd be interested to know how many audiophiles follow this rule. Anybody out there drive a Woodmere with any tube amp? Does thais imply that all speakers with 4 ohm impedances are ruling out tube amps to drive them? I'd be interested to hear other speaker manufacturers' comments.
Read my post carefully. I conceded that it would/could be a mis-match.
Appropos your comments about Ralph, Tvad, I have spoken to him today and he confirms his generalisation that 8 ohm impedances are better for all tube amps; however, he believes that he should re-state his assertion, since it is taken too literally (I don't want to put words in his mouth and maybe he will chime in here) - he believes the MA-2 can easily drive the Tyler Woodmere, with its benign impedance curve, but states that it would sound even better with an 8 ohm, rather than 4 ohm, impedance. So that doesn't disqualify a 4 ohm speaker for mating with the MA-2, since the speaker's 91 db sensitivity will compensate somewhat. But the Woodmere doesn't have a 60 day trial like the Zu Definition, so a trial could be "hazardous", and I've done that once already..........I suppose to get as close to "perfection", all the known criteria should ideally be met, and a higher impedance than 6 ohms is one of them, so your point is valid.
>>3-18-08 Shadorne: Why not try pulling those beautiful Kharma's well out into the room and away from the side walls....(while the wife is out) and see if it sounds better?<<
Of course it does sound better, but a) the wife always comes back :)and I'm not having speakers on roller skates - ; b)it still doesnt fill the room - every audio "authority" (manufacturer of note, if you like) that I have spoken to is amazed that I would expect a small 2-way speaker to fill 56oo cubic feet. Do you think it should/would/could? My stupidity for not thinking of this/ trying it out before buying them.
Why not try pulling those beautiful Kharma's well out into the room and away from the side walls....(while the wife is out) and see if it sounds better?
Springbok, I now understand your desire not to switch amps, but I'm still not sure about the limitations about where you can place the loudspeaker. It's highly unlikely that a speaker of the performance you are considering will work optimally in the narrowly prescribed area you can position them. You may have boxed yourself into a coffin -- so to speak.
Get somebody to take a digital photo or two and post your system with the photos on agon under member systems. Given your limitation of 18" in your large room, you may have a setup issue that could benefit from some helpful agon member comments before you can make any convincing loudspeaker assessment.
>>03-18-08: Onhwy61 To take a step back for a second, you're more likely to have success if you first match the speakers to the room and then match an amplifier to the speakers. You seem to be trying to collapse these two separate steps into one. Not that it can't be done, but it greatly limits your options. In other words, why are you so tied to your amp?<<
1. They weigh 250 lbs together 2. I built a special 7 ft coffin with hinges to accomodate them 3. They are the best amplifiers I ever heard 4. They are the most reliable piece of equipment I own, despite the 58 tubes 5. The task is not so impossible - to find an 8 ohm speaker is not so hard
To take a step back for a second, you're more likely to have success if you first match the speakers to the room and then match an amplifier to the speakers. You seem to be trying to collapse these two separate steps into one. Not that it can't be done, but it greatly limits your options. In other words, why are you so tied to your amp?
If the emphasis is on coherent sound you might also consider the larger coaxial designs from Altec (Great Plains Audio), the big classic styled Tannoys or the various Phy based speakers. They are all very efficient and like tubes.
>>05-21-07: Atmasphere Anytime you are investing in tube amplifier technology, that investment will be best served by a speaker that is at least 8 ohms or more.
Tube amps, with rare exception, have reduced performance into four ohms.<<
So that makes the Defintion AFI the best choice, (30 ohm impedance) particularly since there is a 60 day in-home trial. Can anybody tell me why there are such divided camps on the Definition? I have read about the "Zu sound". Anybody expand on that? And them, of course, I have to sell the Kharmas - not an easy job in today's economy.
>>3-17-08 Macrojack My question for you is: If your room is so large, why must you squeeze your speakers into a narrow space?<< Do you really need to know the geography of my living room? Surely it would bore you??? Take it from me, I have no more than 18". If I knew how to post a photo, I would.
Using outboard transformers with OTL amplifiers rather defeats the purpose. Appropriate speaker matching will make more sense and bring better results. Also must agree with Shadorne about cramming high performance speakers into too small a space. This will waste your money. Most manufacturers are becoming very desperate for sales. Be sure to verify what they claim about their products. I had Definitions and they are almost 12.5 inches across the front. I now have Presence which have a 14 inch baffle width.
My question for you is: If your room is so large, why must you squueze your speakers into a narrow space?
For what it's worth, the last I heard, Ralph himself was using Zu Druids.
Ralph's advice about no less than 6 ohms and preferably not less than 8 ohms is right.
I've tried the Speltz autoformer. Although I really like the speltz cables, I do not recommend the autoformer. I've tried it. I believe it exists as a band-aid for those who have an amp/speaker mismatch and it may be helpful in that context. It does, however, introduce problems of its own. IMHO, a seller who recommends buying a 4ohm speaker and the autoformer to go with the Atma is doing a disservice.
Again, with a room that large, why are you limited to a 10" speaker width? Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation, but any of these speakers need breathing room around them and you have a big room.
>> 3-17-08 Tvad: I find that surprising, and almost incredible. The advice from Bill is completely at odds with advice Ralph has given me over the past few months.<<
I'll find Ralph and clarify this before taking a b-i-g 500 lb step like this.
Tyler says no problem with the Woodmeres and Bill at Atma-Sphere says no problem (4 ohms, dips to low 3's, 91 db sensitivity)- so it seems between the Zu Definitions and Woodmeres so far.........
cant go much beyond 10" wide to fit in the apce between the amp Boxes and the corners.
Please Please don't tell me you are placing such awesome speakers in a corner or near a sideboard or drawer with sharp angles - this will definitely affect the soundstage and may collapse it to the speakers (edge diffraction = claustrophobic sound)
=> this might be a major part of your problem...any reflections within less than 7 msecs can severely affect the openess of the sound...the worst is that everything collapses to the speakers. My rule of thumb is a minimum of three feet from side walls but four feet or more is safest. Remember our ears sense timing for where a sound comes from....the time a signal arrives is how you interpret where it is (you have to go 10 DB SPL louder to make your brain pay attention to "loudness" rather than arrival time cues) Now when you clutter or crowd early arrivals with edge diffraction of reflections it can really mess up the size of the soundstage.
How about Dali Megalines? I've seen them used at 15k, but you will need to biamp and may want to upgrade the Xover. Nevertheless, they will fill your space coherently and are about 10" wide. Check Albert Porter's virtual system here on Agon.
I can stretch it to 18" - just wont be able to open the drawer next to it. That means the Tyler Woodmeres, Zu Definitions, Presesnce of those mentioned, would do. There's a used pair of the former on A'gon for $6,500
If you scroll down the page on the Classic Audio Reproductions Contemporary Line page, you will see the T5. These look like traditional box speakers, yet they are 94dB and 16 ohms. I don't believe the T5 use a horn, although the T3 do...and they don't look like traditional horn speakers either.
Have you heard those speakers, Grant? The ones they had at the show that I was responding to were from their "Classic" line. I did not see the "Contemporary" line there(or perhaps I just didn't notice them as the Classics have a very commanding presence). Certainly neither would not fall into any 10" wide limit though. Coincident is a good call. Vienna Acoustics Mahlers perhaps, those also sounded great and are very capable of room-filling sound. Neither impressed me more than the TADs though. Can't recall if they'd fall into the 10" limit, but they'd probably be close.
There are 2 speakers that will blow you away if you like slam.I just learned what that ment using ab ae-3 pre cheap as dirt with tubes that cost more th it vdid. #1. IRS Vs ask Bill at Millersound if he can get them the Atmas will be fine the 6 woofer line array is self powered. The WAF factor might be a problem at 7' and 4 columns but I never herad anything better. They are Rare the only guy who seems to know where they are is Bill. Also your budget might be strecht. The other is the famous but now forgotten Duntechs a very big speaker reccommened to me but my dedicated listening area wont accomodate them. Believe it not these ultra speakers sell for $3,00 to $5,000. They heavy at 350 lbs each but if you want fine detail and don't play at 90 db wich considerable I know . A friend and I tried to listen to Bad to the Bone at 100Db and up. I just couldn't takeit. BTW we used my vintage Klipsch La Scalas. No onev was killed or injured. I wouldn't try that with my JMs which are "Old Hat" but the utopias are great. Ralph I thought Liked the Klipsch imitations, like the man said CAR I tyhink>
Thank you for the very helpful responses. The Classic Audio Reproduction line look fine, but are too wide for my space. The Kharamas are 7" wide - I cant go much beyond 10" wide to fit in the apce between the amp Boxes and the corners.
I didn't know that, but they sounded quite good with Ralph's amps at RMAF. I didn't go there because of Springbok10's comment about his wife's distaste for the appearance of horns. For me horns come in all shapes and sizes so I don't really get the blanket rejection. The CAR speakers were gorgeous to my eyes and did sound great, as I said. The TAD Pioneers would still get my vote and $ were I to choose. But, for a huge-room filling sound I do agree that horns are an excellent recommendation and the CAR speakers were outstanding and may indeed to better at filling a huge room. The CAR speakers were playing in one of the largest rooms at the show (greater in volume than Springbok10's) and had no problems filling that room with lifelike sound. The TAD Pioneers were in a large room as well, but the volume of that room was significantly smaller as the ceilings were lower. Still, it was probably equal to the volume of the room Springbok10 is trying to fill. Those speakers just seemed to do everything right.
One of the best rooms at RMAF to my ears was quite large and was filled effortlessly by the TAD/Pioneer speakers. They sounded superb and were one of the few rooms there that had me wanting to go back to listen to more. I believe they demand some current though and I didn't notice what amps you are using. If I had a $15k budget to pick speakers at RMAF I absolutely would not hesitate there: TAD. The S1-EX was astoundingly good at $9K, so you'll have change to buy different amps if you need'em. At the show they were driving them with BelCanto Ref1000's which sounded great with a wide range of source material. You could wait for the TAD Reference 1 to come to market but I think the price was going to be around $45k. If you check out the reviewers takes on RMAF and CES this year you'll notice them noted as favorite highlights by many a reviewer as well as folks in the forums here. I have no idea how your wife will feel about their looks, but I cannot imagine not liking the way they reproduce music.
>>Could it be that your speakers are big enough, but the real problem is dynamic compression if they are forced to produce full range music they they can't in order to fill the room? <<
Get some horns why mess arround you have a large space get a large loudspeaker to fill it. Or you will be back asking why your new loudspeakers dont fill your room.
Could it be that your speakers are big enough, but the real problem is dynamic compression if they are forced to produce full range music they they can't in order to fill the room? Even many larger full-range speakers have a single midrange and high frequency driver that are placed very close to one another, with additional drivers used to fill in the bottom octaves. Maybe adding a subwoofer or two can solve the problem. It might be worth trying before changing our your mains.
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