>>Could it be that your speakers are big enough, but the real problem is dynamic compression if they are forced to produce full range music they they can't in order to fill the room? <<
I dont know how to answer that. Anybody? |
Audiofeil have a pair of Defintions that have an impedance of 30 that are custom made specifically for OTL amps. I'll ask Ralph about the Woodmeres. |
>>Get some horns why mess arround you have a large space get a large loudspeaker to fill it.<<
Tyler Woodmeres, Dynaudio Temptations are large.......
Horns are ugly. Wife hates ugly. Also, I'm not changing amps. |
80-90 db, Atma-Sphere MA 2.2 OTLs, 220 WPC. |
Budget: $15K (new or used) |
Thank you for the very helpful responses. The Classic Audio Reproduction line look fine, but are too wide for my space. The Kharamas are 7" wide - I cant go much beyond 10" wide to fit in the apce between the amp Boxes and the corners. |
>>03-16-08: Tvad
10" wide limit? Wow.<<
I can stretch it to 18" - just wont be able to open the drawer next to it. That means the Tyler Woodmeres, Zu Definitions, Presesnce of those mentioned, would do. There's a used pair of the former on A'gon for $6,500 |
Tvad, I appreciate your input thus far (as usual). Which of all these contenders have you heard? |
Tyler says no problem with the Woodmeres and Bill at Atma-Sphere says no problem (4 ohms, dips to low 3's, 91 db sensitivity)- so it seems between the Zu Definitions and Woodmeres so far......... |
>> 3-17-08 Tvad: I find that surprising, and almost incredible. The advice from Bill is completely at odds with advice Ralph has given me over the past few months.<<
I'll find Ralph and clarify this before taking a b-i-g 500 lb step like this. |
>>3-17-08 Macrojack
My question for you is: If your room is so large, why must you squeeze your speakers into a narrow space?<<
Do you really need to know the geography of my living room? Surely it would bore you??? Take it from me, I have no more than 18". If I knew how to post a photo, I would. |
>>05-21-07: Atmasphere
Anytime you are investing in tube amplifier technology, that investment will be best served by a speaker that is at least 8 ohms or more.
Tube amps, with rare exception, have reduced performance into four ohms.<<
So that makes the Defintion AFI the best choice, (30 ohm impedance) particularly since there is a 60 day in-home trial. Can anybody tell me why there are such divided camps on the Definition? I have read about the "Zu sound". Anybody expand on that?
And them, of course, I have to sell the Kharmas - not an easy job in today's economy. |
>>03-18-08: Onhwy61
To take a step back for a second, you're more likely to have success if you first match the speakers to the room and then match an amplifier to the speakers. You seem to be trying to collapse these two separate steps into one. Not that it can't be done, but it greatly limits your options. In other words, why are you so tied to your amp?<<
1. They weigh 250 lbs together
2. I built a special 7 ft coffin with hinges to accomodate them
3. They are the best amplifiers I ever heard
4. They are the most reliable piece of equipment I own, despite the 58 tubes
5. The task is not so impossible - to find an 8 ohm speaker is not so hard |
>>3-18-08 Shadorne: Why not try pulling those beautiful Kharma's well out into the room and away from the side walls....(while the wife is out) and see if it sounds better?<<
Of course it does sound better, but a) the wife always comes back :)and I'm not having speakers on roller skates - ; b)it still doesnt fill the room - every audio "authority" (manufacturer of note, if you like) that I have spoken to is amazed that I would expect a small 2-way speaker to fill 56oo cubic feet. Do you think it should/would/could? My stupidity for not thinking of this/ trying it out before buying them. |
Appropos your comments about Ralph, Tvad, I have spoken to him today and he confirms his generalisation that 8 ohm impedances are better for all tube amps; however, he believes that he should re-state his assertion, since it is taken too literally (I don't want to put words in his mouth and maybe he will chime in here) - he believes the MA-2 can easily drive the Tyler Woodmere, with its benign impedance curve, but states that it would sound even better with an 8 ohm, rather than 4 ohm, impedance. So that doesn't disqualify a 4 ohm speaker for mating with the MA-2, since the speaker's 91 db sensitivity will compensate somewhat. But the Woodmere doesn't have a 60 day trial like the Zu Definition, so a trial could be "hazardous", and I've done that once already..........I suppose to get as close to "perfection", all the known criteria should ideally be met, and a higher impedance than 6 ohms is one of them, so your point is valid. |
>>3-19-08 Tvad: I'm interested to know how you or Ralph are determining that the Woodmere speakers have a benign impedance curve since the minimum impedance spec of the Woodmere is not published on the Tyler webpage. Ty only publishes the nominal impedance spec.<<
Based on Ty telling me it is an easy load and drops to low-mid 3's.
I'm not arguing about any of your points, tvad, just reporting what Ralph said based on Ty's conversation and Ralph's knowledge of the speakers.
What this implies, if taken literally, is that no 4 ohm speaker should be driven by a tube amp. Period. I'd be interested to know how many audiophiles follow this rule. Anybody out there drive a Woodmere with any tube amp?
Does thais imply that all speakers with 4 ohm impedances are ruling out tube amps to drive them? I'd be interested to hear other speaker manufacturers' comments.
Read my post carefully. I conceded that it would/could be a mis-match. |
So now I am looking at speakers that look great (WAF), have a small footprint, have 13 0hm impedance and can stand 6-12" from the wall - Selah Audio Alexandrite. Long build-time, but who's in a rush? Any comments? |
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>>03-18-08: Mustagefan
The perfect speaker for is the LS9 by AV123 it is 8ohm.<<
I just spoke to AV123. It hasn't even been assembled yet, although the GR Research model is available in kit form. So, not exactly ready to buy!! |
Now that I've sold the Kharmas (25 offers in first 12 hours and I was expecting a month or two wait..........first firm offer to buy disappeared into thin air - that really pisses me off, so second buyer, a real gent, gets them), the serious search is on: Zu Definitions, Custom-made Selah Line arrays adjusted for corners, room size and 13 ohm impedance, built in sub-woofer, gorgeous wood craftmanship, Audiokinesis Jazz Modules and Tyler Woodmeres currently in the frame. Only thing I dont like about the Defintions is the aesthetics - wife went green when she saw chrome and metal, but I am told they can be painted black.....
All input welcome, and appreciated. |
By the way, thanks Ralph, for your input. Your 24/7 availability and objectivity certainly adds to the pleasure and privilege of owning Atma-Sphere amps & preamps. |
Having spoken to some people whom I greatly respect, I have added the Coincident line to my final few as well as Duke's Jazz Module; I would look for a Total Eclipse, but they are not available on A'gon, but the Total Reference is. Zu Defintions remain high up, but I don't seem to get a handle on their sound, other than the 6 Moons review, which is more akin to a racing car review:) Any views on the Total Reference? I suppose ideally, with an amp such as the A-S MA 2.2, it seems redundant to have a built in sub amp (the Zu)which is unlikely to be as good as the A-S amp. So a full-range speaker without a sub amp would seem to be the theoretical ideal and so far only the Coincident seems to fit the entire bill. But can they be placed close to the front wall? |
>>03-22-08: Psacanli
Sure you could change to bigger louder speakers, but, if I were you I'd experiment with subwoofers to provide the sound you want. Your speakers are fabulous,very hard to beat at what they do, but were designed to be used with subs. Experiment with quality fast subs.<<
I believe these speakers were designed for smaller spaces, and have already sold them. Besides, I dont believe that the vertical soundstage and imaging would be that much affected by subs. But it's moot. |
>>03-22-08: Tvad
Hard to believe, but adding a sub (or two) to monitors has a substantial effect on increased image height and size. Quite amazing, actually...<<
Should I cancel the sale?:):) Are you saying that a recording of content (eg a soprano, violin, piccolo, flute, oboe) well above 60 Hz - an arbitrary cut-off for a suubwoofer - when the subwoofer presumably will not be employed (or will it??) raises the soundstage? What if I tell you that 90% of what I listen to is in the aove 60 Hz range? Then what? I am not being facetious - educate me........ |
>>3-22-08 Macrojack :I'm a Zu guy as is well known but there are some other speakers that might suit your purposes. Perhaps Vandy Fives would fit. <<
Not Coincident Total References?
Specifications:
Frequency Response: 20 Hz 27 KHz
Impedance: 8 ohms (never dipping below 6 or going above 10 ohms)
Sensitivity: 97 db @ 1m 1 watt
Power Requirements: 3 watts 500 watts
Dimensions: 56.5 H x 9 W x 24 D
Weight: 230 lbs ea.
Driver Compliment: (per speaker)
1 Isodynamic Planar Ribbon Tweeter
4 Carbon Fiber 5.25 Midranges
4 Nomex Fiber 12 Woofers |
Vandersteen 5As certainly have great reviews. How sensitive are they to placement? Close to front walls? |
Will they easily fill the room and does the soundstage extend vertically above the speakers (they are shorter than
the others I am considering)? |
I'm impressed with what I've read about SP Tech. I spoke to Bob and he does not feel the location (near the front wall) or size of the room, or the fact that I have a tube OTL amp are impediments. (I know, I know, 8 ohms is better)- but I still haven't found the ideal speaker in theory, and SP Tech is getting raves. Comments? |
Thank you all for your input. It is most appreciated. I am going with the SP Tech Revelations III, guided by many who have listened to them as well as the other contenders. I am especially indebted to Duke, who despite being a competitor, gave frank and honest advice. The only reason that I didn't buy the Jazz Module is one of size and likelihood that the far taller Revs would fill the room better. Furthermore, Bob Smith, the owner and designer will modify them to accomodate my awful room placement issue and will design a passive equaliser for close-to-corner placement and to reduce the demands on the Atma-Sphere for bass drive. I am taking a small risk in that the Revs may do better with biamping with ss for the LF, but will cross that bridge when I have tried the A-S amps. I have been really impressed with Bob Smith's out-of-the-box approach to tailoring his speakers to both the room and the amp and his sound reasoning for (hopefully) making this work. |
Shadorne, all the changes will be incorporated in the bass equalizer, an external box, placed between the amp and preamp. It wont affect the speaker design physically. Because it will be placed in the corner, almost, Bob will utilise this fact to reduce bass demand from the amps and other technicalities that are beyond me........ |
