Since 90% of classical (and others) music is in the midrange. And since ATC makes the best midrange. Then the 21st midrange is the ATC's. In woofers the winners are the Seas and Skaaning. There are many very good dome tweets out there. The Hiqulaphon at like 160/pr stands out for value. There are many good ribbons as well , Raven ESg Philips. |
If 90% of music is in the midrange, then why not use a great single driver speaker? Keep studying Tweek, you will eventually find out that I have been right all along. |
The reason in a nutshell, Twl, is that you won't be hearing what the composer intended you to hear. Some folks aren't bothered by that but many of us are not content to recompose standard works, especially from the "classical" repertoire. I wrote a long diatribe on this a few weeks back so i won't repeat it here. Suffice it to say that lots of folks want to hear all the notes the composer wrote and that you cannot do with virtually any single driver design, luscious midrange to the contrary notwithstanding.
will |
Twl, with any driver there are + and - I'm sure the Fostex are nice. Like Bishop says a single point driver will not perform in the lower hz's like a Seas or Skaaning, and will not perform in the upper 's like a great tweeter or ribbon. And for mids the ATC midrange is suppose to be tops. Bishop explain "to the contrary notwithstanding"? |
Bishopwill, I humbly and completely disagree with your point of view about not hearing what the composer intended. The same could be said about any speaker, whether it be 1 way or 6 way. If I said that a multi-way speaker did not produce the 16Hz organ note that is heard once in a blue moon, would you say it cannot produce the performance the way the composer intended? Almost every speaker in the world is rolled off somewhat on the low end. Are they all to be tossed out as well? My single drivers will reproduce even 20Hz albeit at quite a lower level than the average SPL. This conception that single drivers cannot reproduce bass information is just incorrect. It is there, just rolled off some. Just like many other speakers. And when you consider the problems encountered with crossing drivers in and out, with the response lumps, phase anomalies, and loss of signal information, would you say that these irregularities would be preferred by the composer as "more acceptable" deviations from his intended presentation. Are you saying that crossover distortions and losses are part of the composition? There are very few speakers in this world that are truly flat and accurate at 16Hz. And many of them sacrifice far more in musicality throughout the other areas of the spectrum in order to achieve that low end. I respect your opinion to disagree with my point, but I think when pressed in this way, you will have to agree that no speaker really presents the performance exactly as the composer intended and that most of them are deficient in the bass frequencies to some extent. You just seem to think that a single driver with a rolloff that begins at 40Hz is not producing bass below that point and that somehow multi- driver speakers are. You may be surprised to learn that the majority of multi-way speakers are not flat below 40Hz or even higher. I guarantee that if you heard a good single driver system, you would not have the opinion that you have. |
Twl, your argument is a good one but at the end of the day it doesn't pass muster. First, as to the organ work with the occasional 16Hz pedal tone, yes, a system that will not reproduce that pitch is recomposing (or decomposing) that work. If the composer did not want you to hear that pitch, s/he would have spared the organist the bother of playing it. None of us would cut speaker systems any slack about accurately reproducing other aspects of music, why do the extreme ends of the spectrum get an exception?
Here's an example: Last night I was having coffee with a friend in a local coffee shop that prides itself on being a bit artsy-fartsy. To my delight, they put on the Herbert Howells oboe sonata, a work out of my own performance past. The fast, nuanced playing totally defeated the resolving power of the tiny Bose-ettes mounted around the room. Further, the wonderful, woody nasality of the instrument was almost totally lost. Now, virtually no one on this list would defend a speaker system that decomposed the music in that fashion, yet folks will cheerfully give away an octave or so on both ends and defend their decision to do so. Stay with me now: I'm not comparing Bose microspeakers to good single driver systems in any respect other than this one--that they deny the listener the opportunity to hear the music as the composer intended it to be heard. It may still be very pleasant. I was far happier sipping my java with Howells in the background than being subjected to Kenny G or Barely ManBelow. But I was not having the experience that Mr. Howells wanted me to have when he wrote the piece.
You may say, "But no speaker can reproduce everything just right!" And you're correct. Indeed, that endless quest for the sound of live performance is the driving force behind the high end. I would submit, though, that a good full-range system that is down perhaps 2-3dB at 20Hz comes closer to realizing the composer's intent than one that is down 20-30dB at 20Hz--at least to the extent that the composer wrote notes down that low. So defending single driver systems with steep low-end rolloff simply because all systems have SOME low-end rolloff doesn't make much sense to me.
For persons who listen only or primarily to music with frequencies that fall within the range of single driver speakers, I agree that they can offer superb midrange sound and a number of other very positive characteristics. For those of us who are accustomed to hearing live organ or orchestral or other musical forms that include significant low frequency content, single driver systems simply leave out too much of the music.
This is exactly the kind of disagreement that makes high end audio interesting. Thanks for the gentlemanly tone of your response to me and please accept my comments as I intend them, not any kind of attack but simply a difference in point of view.
will |
Ok, Bishopwill, I'll give you the deep organ part of the argument against single drivers. But, the high end is not rolled off on good single driver speakers. Many times a high end rolloff on these is actually the characteristic of the SET amps that are commonly used with them. The transformer on the amp it the usual culprit in rolling off the highs. They will "beam" however, so the sweet spot is smaller than other designs, regarding the high freq's.,But a 1 inch dome tweeter beams at approximately 10kHz, so you lose that upper octave if you are off axis on multi-way too. Lowthers will respond within a few db of average all the way to 22kHz. So, we're really talking only about a low end deficiency here. I see the vast majority of speaker designs, even very expensive ones, don't do 20 cycles within 2 or 3 db. So I agree with you that it is a matter of degree as to what level of bass rolloff you can accept. My position is that the increased coherence of the single driver is worth the tradeoff of the lowest bass response that you probably are going to get with almost any speaker anyhow. I am not against low bass response by any means. I would love to have 16Hz flat and clean. But, I just don't want it at the expense of the truthfulness of the rest of the spectrum. Pleasant listening and thanks for your point of view. :-) |
Bishop the Manger full range drivers are married to a woofer that provides the low fq's. The Fostex Lowthers and other "full range" drivers all do well with woofers in the lower hz's. But i'm not sure if the these drivers offer the musicality that i'm after. Can one of these full range do what a great tweeter can do in the upper most range? And like i say these full range drivers are not tube friendly, so count me out. And i've got a feeling i will not be able to use the ATC midrange with in my 3 way kit, for ohm demand. Twl has a Berning amp that works well with his Fostex full range. I'm not giving up my tubes for any speaker. |
Twl The big Berning amp + a great full range hybrid speaker , like Lowther , Manger, Fostex will make wonderful music. As well a superior tube amp + superior 3 way will have advantages. Threads like this open the way for better understanding of the speaker factor in the audioworld. |
I'm very surprised ain't nobody following up this thread ..like i'm talking to myself. oh well here goes anyway. I posted this on 3-11. Well they've arrived, they will be released in the next week. Seas W26, Seas W15CH, Seas 27TDC. Seas web site shows a photo of the W26, the midrange and tweeter photo will be up shortly. |
I'm following, send pictures and thoughts ASAP. |
Unsound, i got the web address from MikeO on Madisound's forum for the awesome looking Seas W15CH-001, a revolutionary midrange with 6 neodynamiun magnets. Try this site, i've tried it but does not work if i try to key it in, but works if i use "my favorite". http://www.intertechnik.de/cgi-local/shop3_blatt.pl?1346 If you go to Madisound click on Catalogue Click on Seas Click on Seas home page Click on Excel, you'll see the beautiful W26!. You can't get the specs for the driver yet. But you can get a drawing and specs of the W15CH. The new tweeter, is a remake of a older model i believe, so nothing there. I just posted a thread on Mad about ribbons vs dome tweets. hunmmm, seems the ribbons ,ESg3 R-2 Philips RSQ8P offer a wonderful resolution-image of music, but there is the vertical dispersion issue. There are quite a few superior dome tweets to consider, Accuton C23, Hiquaphon come to mind. I remember Duke saying he heard the wonderful R-3's and when you stand up, you notice a drop in fq's. Same for electrostats sweet spot issue. Everyone at Mad is anxiously awaiting the arrival of the W26's. Take a look at the description and the specs on the W15CH. The other superior midrange to compare is the Accuton C-79, which i have going in a 3 way. |
Now I am using a lowther pm4a mid a raven r3.1 ribbon tweeter and cabaz mid woofer section and a velodyne 18in sub for ulta sonics.This way I can run a S.E.T. on the mids and class a solid state on the rest,etc.sub.I am really enjoying this combination and am going to build a more integrated speaker .I would rather have a great mid range and go without the frequincy extremes ,but this combo to me has it all |
Hey John, are you the guy that posted a whilie back that you had the R-3's? Or are these new for you? Dude, That's one heck of a speaker!!!! Most folks don't know what the R-3's are all about. Now about the Lowthers i'm not too hip about, all i know is that it's a very fine "full-range" The Cabasse mid, they are all right, but i think you can do better. Seems you are like me, into superior drivers. ...hummm, i think i can give you a few suggestions. But with the R-3's, you got top dog there. With that + the ultimate woofer...the new Seas W26!!!, So here goes...Seas W26+R-3!!! Bammm! $30K speaker! Ain't nothing going to touch it! |
I added the ravens to my oris horn speaker when I sell it I am building a new system arround the raven .Love the sound of the r3.1 but it still needs a mid.I was thinking about using 2 fostex sigmas for mids per side and 2 PHL 15in woofers per.that way I can use a simple crossover and keep everything at 98db -1-watt.ever heard of the cabasse 20 3/4 in woofer?thxs for your advise I will look into it |
Hold up John, lets look at our options. The Raven 3 is one heck of a driver, so we want to do this right. Yes i believe i saw a design with the monster 20 3/4 inch Cabasse on E-Speakers.com. But have you seen the new Seas W26?!! For midrange i'm casting my vote to the Accutons over the Fostex. Now which Accuton? PHL are good drivers, but Seas W26+Accuton+R3! I'll give you the model # on the Accuton. |
needs to be 98 db or so when fin. I do love low powered tube gear |
Yes I just asked Rick Craig about some help with design. All he said was that you are after sensitivity. I'm not sure exactly what that means. But i can see with your goal of 98db, he hit the nail on the head...hummm, so lets see there is alot going on here. Low power amps..Are these called SET amps? Single ended? What amp do you have? What's the benifit of a low power amp vs say a nice Jadis 60 watt? |
I'm in agreement with avdcreations on this one. How about the arrival of active speakers with a digital amp? Further, why don't we have a system where you get *one* high-bandwidth connection (firewire/fibre?) that carries *all* audio streams. Then take this one connection and daisy-chain it to each speaker. Each speaker "knows" what channel signal to pluck out of the merged datastream, and amplifies the appropriate channel. Imagine, a single wire that come out of the back of the disc player and goes to all the speakers necessary.
I guess Meridian comes closest to this sort of thing...
Anyone know of any work being done in this direction? |
Just got word from Rick at Selah Audio and Jeff at Sonic Audio(Accuton specialist). All Rick says is that your after sensitivity.(???) Jeff agrees with me about over-kill. Says that a 3 way with the R-3 is confusing to him. He's not sure how to work a xover for your proposal. From your statement that you feel you need a mid. That kinda tells me that a Ribbon+Midrange is possibly more interesting than the 25 lb.Raven-3 acting as midrange+tweeter. Ribbons in reference are the ESg2,3 Raven 1,2 Philips RT9, RSQ8P/11. It's the limited vertical dispersion thing with ribbons. So even though the R-3 gives a seamless mid/treble image, you still have the dispersion problem when you stand up. It's a trade-off. I get the feeling you are looking for some "body" to the mid section? Midrange + Ribbon |
TacT might be the most ambitious all digital design. |
I usualy have to biamplify with the oris and raven I had to tri amplify what a pain worked great .I use now A.S.L. dove 300b western electric tubes .I have heard many types of amps and love the sound of a low watt s.e.t.They are simple and have the best mids I have heard.so 300b on the mid small class a solid state on the raven ,rega exons on the cabaz .Also I have a pair off like new raven r-1s about 3 months old that I tried for a while ,Id like to sell for $ 250 shipped? highly sensitive speakers can produce huge dynamics on lower power .I was thinking of making my new speaker so I can run 2 amps the 300b and a class a solid state for the ravens and phl woofers |
John i can't seem to follow you. Give me another break down. Solid State amp, What brand? Going to what driver? ASL tube amp, going to what driver? That's a monster cabinet, what's the dimensions? Do you think the PHL's are more musical than the Seas? QUESTION: do you feel you need a midrange with the Raven-3's because of the limited dispersion problem with the Ravens. In other words, with say midrange + Ribbon you only deal with the limited dispersion only with the ribbon tweet. The big R-3's acting as mid+tweet limit the midrange dispersion as well as treble. True? |
Rick Craig of Selah Audio has finally finished the Selah3. You can find a intriguing review of them over at Madisound, look for the post "a visit to Ricks place" by BradV. A believable! and honest! review. Hopefully Rick will ship by weekend and i'll post a review here ASAP. |
If you don't have a Seas Excel W22 or better the new W26 in your cabinet you need to get one. |
