Hold up John, lets look at our options. The Raven 3 is one heck of a driver, so we want to do this right. Yes i believe i saw a design with the monster 20 3/4 inch Cabasse on E-Speakers.com. But have you seen the new Seas W26?!! For midrange i'm casting my vote to the Accutons over the Fostex. Now which Accuton? PHL are good drivers, but Seas W26+Accuton+R3! I'll give you the model # on the Accuton. |
Herman these questions are presented with all genuine curiosity. If you read something in there thats not, then... I'll take the 5th for the moment.. |
Can anybody second Paul's "as alive as you can get" British Harbeth($3K) cone drivers? Harbeth has been around for like 30 years. If they are the superior cone driver then most of us would have them by now...no matter what the price! For the speakers mentioned lets keep things in clear perspective and put price tags. Avalon's $6K. Kharma's $17K. Sound Lab starts at $7K up. Herman i can find a few amps say $3 to $5K i like(all are tubes). I can find a few CDP's say $1800 i like. But i'm perplexed as to the speaker component in the equasion. Here goes: whats the weight of the Khramas the Avalons and the Sound Labs? On a scale of 1 to 10 what is the LAF ( the Lady's Acceptance Factor) due to size due to weight and most importantly due to price? |
Paul its true all speakers have their limitations: sound size weight and last but most certainly not least the price. What irks me to the max is the claims that advertising makes about a speaker that to me falls way short of those high praises. As well the amount of hype that surrounds certain speakers that to me is not justified...Where are Mr.Plato and Mr.Gassman when you need them most... |
Personally i've never in my life have heard a midrange cone that produced high fidelity sound. Its always a mid/tweet that worked to the best of its potential. Think about it. The size of a electrostat panel takes MUCH more energy to drive than a two way (tweet/mid + woofer) Efficient cone speaker. But the one t/m cone driver has a very small surface area thus BIG soundstage will never be realized to the degree we all like it. Which leaves us the ribbon to consider. Ribbons are more efficient than electrostats = better performance from our amps( sorry big high quality watt ss amps are not considered i'm thinking of high quality tube amps with say 50 to 100 watts). Midrange ribbons have a much sweeter sound than any cone mid and can almost match the electrostats superior mids. Ribbon tweeters are comparable to high quality cone tweeters. Ribbon tweeters are a tad superior to electrostat panels for the broader imaging. On to woofers/bass. The electrostat produces the superior mid/bass over both ribbons and mid/woofer cones. For the lower bass frequencies woofers do what electrostats cannot. So a good sub can be added to electros but more$$. Ribbons possess the best qualities of both. Albert says that Sound Lab has a superstat in the works maybe 10 years. Some of ya'll say the cone will soon correct its deficiencies. I'm saying the ribbon is here and now and will be choice of speakers for the new decade. I say decade because with computers around who can really say what will be the choice speaker after 10 years. At present its the ribbon hybred design. I may be mistaken on some points and so open to correction. |
So far i have NOT received 1 response that answers any of the above questions satisfactorily. I'm sure this web site has more than 4 members. How can anybody be satisfied with the majority of speakers out there. |
Sure Albert the Sound lab's ULTIMATE A-1's are in my opinion possibly the best OVERALL speaker on the market. There are no cone speaker in the world going to produce mids/highs sound stage imaging and every other description like the labs UA1. And i've never heard them before. BUT at $18K!! I mean most of us can never touch them. So yea the "perfect" speaker is made avaliable. But WILL sound lab find the TECHNOLOGY to make this speaker smaller and more efficient and less expensive. I guess their other models. But they as well have the above problems. So they are "not" the "answer" to our speaker problem here. When i hear the VMPS ribbon speakers I'll post my opinions. If they are everything i expect they are then i see ribbons as the most practical and wise choice as THE 21ST CENTURY SPEAKER. If you are a)single b)rich and c)have the room then the SL's are the winner, QUAD's as well are a serious contender to the smaller model SL's and the larger VMPS. All my research has led to these 3 as the showdown. If you and i hear them together you may put the 3 in one order and i in another, some personal preference may be involved. Our choice in amp will be a very important factor AFTER we decide which speaker we will take home. BUT the speaker choice is the tough choice.Why tough? We need to consider 1) efficency 2)size 3)sound as in mids/highs/soundstage/imaging/midbass/bass/etc. 4) $$ or are they $$$$. By which standard shall we determine a systems sound. There are none. However you could use Jadis 800 amp Jadis 800 preamp as the reference in power. Thats a $100,000 reference point. Which could be pointless but then again may not be. You could use the reasonable priced Jadis JA60 interg. @$5K,as a comparison to all other amps in this range and lower. So lets assume this as the reference in amps. Now onto CDP's. We could use the LINN at $20K as reference point. But again out of reach. So lets say the Capitole and/or Mephisto at 6 to 8K. Again here is our reference to all other cdp's in this range and lower. Lets use Sound Labs as our reference in speakers. Listen to them first BEFORE you buy a ribbon or cone speaker so as to get a BETTER idea of what you are about to buy. But who can fly all over the country auditioning audio? (audio clubs are a big help here) I expect no agreement on my unusual possibly odd ,maybe even strange (OK... abit crazy) ideas. But who knows something may come of all this nonsense. One final thought. Can anybody even begin to imagine how this system would sound in a large perfect acoustical room. JADIS 800AMP + JADIS 800PRE + LINN CDP + SOUND LAB UA1...WOWW!!! |
Lets assume my statements are correct. I did say possibly. I've read reviews and have seen statements made about speakers that are way off the mark (they did not sound sublime to any degree). But in this case I've done my research and read between the lines and added every thing into the equation and thats how i came up with these BOLD (but confident) statements. Heck all i need is just one SL owner to step up to confirm. But i'll admit its abit audacious. My apologies... Breaking news! I'm on to researching drivers and crossovers for a do-it-yourself. I'll keep everyone posted as to findings. Its not going to be cheap say around $6K/pr. |
Mr. Hager thanks a bunch for your imput. I've done alittle research and seems this ATC is a very fine speaker. AS FOR ME this would probably be one of the very few traditional cone speaker i would consider buying. However they are large and expensive. This thread would have made little sense a few ,say 3 or 4 yrs ago. But now with the spectacular new technology in CDP's and power supply , the speaker is the next challenge for engineers...While researching speaker drivers i came across a hightech web site for disscussions on speakers. WAY over my intelligence. But its facinating to read the posts between these hightech audiophiles. The Madison speaker parts site also shows a speaker designed by a Engineer (a DOCTOR) which has dual SEAS woofers 8 inch hightech and a supertech tweet/mid sells for like $1600. This as well is very interesting AND VERY beautiful speaker to consider. |
Woofer: SEAS W18EX001 CABASSE Tweeters: PHILIPS RT8P (isodynamic=ribbon-like) CABASSE TC21(they call it their "HOLY GRAIL" $600! EACH!!) SEAS T25CF002 MOREL MDT33 RAVEN1 RAVEN2 RAVEN3( the 3 sells for $1650! EACH!!) ADT tweeter. Now this is what i'm talking about. The above are SUPERIOR products. Some very expensive! These to me are 21st century drivers. With further research will list more later. |
THE 21ST century speaker has arrived...but you can not ...i repeat can not walk in your local hi-fi shop and get one...my diligent hours of research has paid off...comercial speakers produce just that "comercial sound"...and believe the reviews if you want...have a nice day |
TWL i am trying to take in all the posts on your fine thread...seems no one wants to pick a fight over their "beloved" speaker...even though this thread did not receive even half the attention that your's received...maybe mine was a prelude...you put the question in a way that demanded attention..the full range plasma i am not familiar with ? the name?...and most important how much?...i posted on your thgread about the NEW HIGH TECH DRIVERS, but was totally ignored...what i need is some opinions on the sound of the THIEL and CABASSE, both labs make models from $4K to $13K...when we go into this price range i could have a kit designed that would easily out perform...and for half the price...THIEL's web page says "Attractive,Affordable, Awesome", and alot other funny things..so statements like that put doubts in my mind even before i hear them...oh, i see that statement is taken from the "not tell it like it is" hearing aid folks |
Yes I just asked Rick Craig about some help with design. All he said was that you are after sensitivity. I'm not sure exactly what that means. But i can see with your goal of 98db, he hit the nail on the head...hummm, so lets see there is alot going on here. Low power amps..Are these called SET amps? Single ended? What amp do you have? What's the benifit of a low power amp vs say a nice Jadis 60 watt? |
full range MANGER driver>>can someone give me some info and even better a solid review on this interesting driver |
thanks alot for the web address...to me this manger looks like a partial answer in an attempt to match at least some of the SOUND LABS highly praised qualities...of course on a much smaller scale ..which suits me fine ..cause i do not want to be overwhelmed by any speaker ...no i prefer dynamics over a big sound stage...yes i know this goes against the likes of the majority... every time i go to an audio club meeting the volume is way over the level i prefer |
THE MANGER USA LABS offer 3 models single 8 scanspeak + 1 fullrange ($6K) dual 8's + 3 fullrange ($12K) dual 10's + 3 fullrange ($14K)...hummm...interesting...way out my range ...BUT there is another option... |
MANGER seems to be a possible alternative to the SL's.. this to me is a big step on the way to the 21ST century speaker..the ONLY thing holding this speaker back as taking top place as THE 21ST century speaker is its price tag..but like i say there is another option.. FOCAL 8W5411 or FOCAL 10 + single MANGER |
TWL to purchase the separate MANGER driver or kit go to g-brash@pacbell.net, GARY BRASHEAR is the USA dealer for MANGER or e-speakers.com..this is truly a very unique driver...no its not THE ultimate speaker but damn near comes close..and in my opinion MANGER is a good match for the SL's... |
take a close look at the entire manger web page...the manger does not need any help it does it all...music is 90% midrange correct...and every 2 way design falls short in the lower mids, the midwoofer and the tweet never quite picks up where the other leaves off..and the 3 way design breaks up the source signal with an even more complex xover...i'm glad someone posted a comment on single source speakers, its at that point my research led me to manger 80hz up |
digital xovers should offer drivers their full potential..i hope thats in the near future..the MANGER is the ideal single source driver..all you need to do is add a FOCAL 10 or 11 inch or SCANSPEAK 10 inch woofer..i can not imagine a better set up for "any" amount of money than a FOCAL 11WX + MANGER..."is the ideal" because this driver delivers 90% of the frequencies with a fidelity like no other....this driver may not offer the "thrills and chills" of the new tech ribbons but are these ribbons revealing with true fidelity or with a tad of exaggeration? |
Twl i know very little on the tech side of speakers..you may however want to e-mail someone your questions about the potential of the manger..i've heard the driver only works in a woofer set up..i have a choice of 2 FOCAL woofers with the manger.. |
i need more time to evaluate the MANGER...ran into a few opponents>>>i'll post ASAP.. tweek out |
the folks that are following this thread are the lucky folks..i found them!! ..yep..the drivers that i consider to be 21st century drivers are SKAANING SCANSPEAK SEAS FOCAL VINASTON EXPOLINEAR(ribbons) ESg(ribbons) RAVEN (ribbons) PHILIPS (ribbons),,these are the drivers you want in your cabinets..most of these are not cheap..but then how much do you pay for speakers at your local "hifi" shop???..you see what you are actually paying for in essence are the ads of the labs and the nice markup at your friendly local shop..i want to pay for quality drivers and quality xovers..now if you log onto http://www.kochaudio.de/ you'll find some of these drivers..check out my favorites the PHILIPS RT series of ribbons..look at the RSQSP/11 (like $800each!!)as well take a look at possibly the best sounding speaker for large rooms the VINASTON 890MK11..as for their drivers i like the DR45N tweet AL130/A AL170/A MHT12 G25HETL16H TL300..here's my pick..2 way..lets go with the SKAANING 10 incher + PHILIPS RSQSP/11..and for 3 way ..hummm..tough choice..lets again go SKAAN 10 + VINASTON DR45N + ESg3..for xovers lets go with the MARCHAND XM126..now that's a 21st century speaker |
Since 90% of classical (and others) music is in the midrange. And since ATC makes the best midrange. Then the 21st midrange is the ATC's. In woofers the winners are the Seas and Skaaning. There are many very good dome tweets out there. The Hiqulaphon at like 160/pr stands out for value. There are many good ribbons as well , Raven ESg Philips. |
Twl, with any driver there are + and - I'm sure the Fostex are nice. Like Bishop says a single point driver will not perform in the lower hz's like a Seas or Skaaning, and will not perform in the upper 's like a great tweeter or ribbon. And for mids the ATC midrange is suppose to be tops. Bishop explain "to the contrary notwithstanding"? |
Bishop the Manger full range drivers are married to a woofer that provides the low fq's. The Fostex Lowthers and other "full range" drivers all do well with woofers in the lower hz's. But i'm not sure if the these drivers offer the musicality that i'm after. Can one of these full range do what a great tweeter can do in the upper most range? And like i say these full range drivers are not tube friendly, so count me out. And i've got a feeling i will not be able to use the ATC midrange with in my 3 way kit, for ohm demand. Twl has a Berning amp that works well with his Fostex full range. I'm not giving up my tubes for any speaker. |
Twl The big Berning amp + a great full range hybrid speaker , like Lowther , Manger, Fostex will make wonderful music. As well a superior tube amp + superior 3 way will have advantages. Threads like this open the way for better understanding of the speaker factor in the audioworld. |
I'm very surprised ain't nobody following up this thread ..like i'm talking to myself. oh well here goes anyway. I posted this on 3-11. Well they've arrived, they will be released in the next week. Seas W26, Seas W15CH, Seas 27TDC. Seas web site shows a photo of the W26, the midrange and tweeter photo will be up shortly. |
Unsound, i got the web address from MikeO on Madisound's forum for the awesome looking Seas W15CH-001, a revolutionary midrange with 6 neodynamiun magnets. Try this site, i've tried it but does not work if i try to key it in, but works if i use "my favorite". http://www.intertechnik.de/cgi-local/shop3_blatt.pl?1346 If you go to Madisound click on Catalogue Click on Seas Click on Seas home page Click on Excel, you'll see the beautiful W26!. You can't get the specs for the driver yet. But you can get a drawing and specs of the W15CH. The new tweeter, is a remake of a older model i believe, so nothing there. I just posted a thread on Mad about ribbons vs dome tweets. hunmmm, seems the ribbons ,ESg3 R-2 Philips RSQ8P offer a wonderful resolution-image of music, but there is the vertical dispersion issue. There are quite a few superior dome tweets to consider, Accuton C23, Hiquaphon come to mind. I remember Duke saying he heard the wonderful R-3's and when you stand up, you notice a drop in fq's. Same for electrostats sweet spot issue. Everyone at Mad is anxiously awaiting the arrival of the W26's. Take a look at the description and the specs on the W15CH. The other superior midrange to compare is the Accuton C-79, which i have going in a 3 way. |
Hey John, are you the guy that posted a whilie back that you had the R-3's? Or are these new for you? Dude, That's one heck of a speaker!!!! Most folks don't know what the R-3's are all about. Now about the Lowthers i'm not too hip about, all i know is that it's a very fine "full-range" The Cabasse mid, they are all right, but i think you can do better. Seems you are like me, into superior drivers. ...hummm, i think i can give you a few suggestions. But with the R-3's, you got top dog there. With that + the ultimate woofer...the new Seas W26!!!, So here goes...Seas W26+R-3!!! Bammm! $30K speaker! Ain't nothing going to touch it! |
Just got word from Rick at Selah Audio and Jeff at Sonic Audio(Accuton specialist). All Rick says is that your after sensitivity.(???) Jeff agrees with me about over-kill. Says that a 3 way with the R-3 is confusing to him. He's not sure how to work a xover for your proposal. From your statement that you feel you need a mid. That kinda tells me that a Ribbon+Midrange is possibly more interesting than the 25 lb.Raven-3 acting as midrange+tweeter. Ribbons in reference are the ESg2,3 Raven 1,2 Philips RT9, RSQ8P/11. It's the limited vertical dispersion thing with ribbons. So even though the R-3 gives a seamless mid/treble image, you still have the dispersion problem when you stand up. It's a trade-off. I get the feeling you are looking for some "body" to the mid section? Midrange + Ribbon |
John i can't seem to follow you. Give me another break down. Solid State amp, What brand? Going to what driver? ASL tube amp, going to what driver? That's a monster cabinet, what's the dimensions? Do you think the PHL's are more musical than the Seas? QUESTION: do you feel you need a midrange with the Raven-3's because of the limited dispersion problem with the Ravens. In other words, with say midrange + Ribbon you only deal with the limited dispersion only with the ribbon tweet. The big R-3's acting as mid+tweet limit the midrange dispersion as well as treble. True? |
Rick Craig of Selah Audio has finally finished the Selah3. You can find a intriguing review of them over at Madisound, look for the post "a visit to Ricks place" by BradV. A believable! and honest! review. Hopefully Rick will ship by weekend and i'll post a review here ASAP. |
If you don't have a Seas Excel W22 or better the new W26 in your cabinet you need to get one. |
