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What are your impressions about NAD, Gato, Nord and Mola Mola class D Amps?
Which ones did you like the most?
What are your impressions about NAD, Gato, Nord and Mola Mola class D Amps?
Which ones did you like the most?
Which Class D Amplifier? PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrill or other???
I’m looking for a new amp & want Class D.
I’ve seen various brands mentioned, such as PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrel to name a few, but I’ve not heard any of them.
Which company is producing the best sounding Class D?
Which models should I be looking to demo?
Thanks
I’ve seen various brands mentioned, such as PS Audio, Ghent, Nord, Merrel to name a few, but I’ve not heard any of them.
Which company is producing the best sounding Class D?
Which models should I be looking to demo?
Thanks
503 responses Add your response
I have not listened to the Technics SU-G30 yet. By reading the product page, it is evident that this is a fairly complex device, and that GaN transistors are a small component of the overall design. It is outwawrdly not possible to draw definite conclusions as of the relative contribution of GaN to the performance of Technics SU-G30
Worth pointing out that GaN transistors are not particularly new. Prototypes have been demonstrated as early as 1993... That is some 25 years ago. GaN-based transistors have been commercially available in one incarnation or another since 2006. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium_nitride
Nor GaN are the exclusive domain of Niche companies: major semiconductors fabs, such as Panasonic Industrial Devices, offer Gan transistors and GaN-based assemblies:
https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/products/semiconductors/x-gan-power/power-devices
Relatively novel is only the application of Gan to high end audio amplification. If more amplifier designers adopt GaN, The next couple years will tell if transistors based on some forms of GaN inherently correlate to class D modules and circuits that contribute to enhance the audible performance of power amplifiers beyond the current state of the art. Or if the advantage afforded by the application of this semiconductor technology is purely a theoretical one. The danger of overoptimistic disconnects was nicely expressed by Mr. Berra:
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Yogi Berra
Regards, G.
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Technics SU-G30 has been around since spring 2016 according to the Technics website & contains GaN. https://www.technics.com/uk/products/grand-class-g30/network-audio-amplifier-su-g30.html So looks like GaN has been around for a few years & at £2799 for the SU-G30 it seems to be already filtering down to the more affordable end. Has anyone here heard one? |
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I am not saying the latest 500K mosfet class D amps are state of the artGood, because they’re not current technology, will not allow them to be, but GaN technology looks like it might. BTW: Nice last paragraph sermon, that should get a few more buying your soon to be released Class-D’s made from Ice modules? http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_1200_amplifier/IMAG001.JPG |
George cannot handle the truth. It does not matter what I sell or who says what....what matters is the truth. I tell the truth.....you make up stuff about the latest class D (saying it is all crap) which you have not heard. That is the truth. I don't care if someone buys a $15000 amp. My amps are in a completely different price point. Someone who can afford a $15000 sexy amp would not even look at my amps. I am semi retired. I don't need any advertising. My amps will speak for themselves. However, I know what I hear and what I hear is that the best of todays class D mosfet 500K switching amps are dang good. This is from listening. What do you know about the latest mosfet class D amps? Nothing.. Bye the way, manufacturers and dealers are all over these threads. Totally allowed as long as they don't get out of hand. Notice the info from the Nord guy here....nothing wrong with it. Your problem with me is not that I am a manufacturer......but that I believe and say something different from you and since you like to be right you use any defense you can to make my statements look biased. The only truth in audio is what you hear. And you have not listened to any of the latest mosfet amps.....so you speak no truth about them. You are just making stuff up! There are reviews and posts all over the net by people having their mind blown with these latest mosfet class D amps. But if you refuse to believe others who listen, I feel sorry for you. I am not saying the latest 500K mosfet class D amps are state of the art and will never get better or that GaNs or whatever in the future might not better the sound. What I am saying is that we have great sound now.....but you must find it. Every single amp sounds different. Every single manufacturer has different capabilities. Seek out the best in your price point. You will be happy, when you do. My business model is one of self service. The "self" is everyone. For there is only love, God and self. So, if someone makes an amp for the same money or less than me and most people feel it is a better amp then I will stop selling my amp. Because I treat everyone as myself (because they are....we are one). I want to have the best thing for the money and I want the same for everyone else. What I sell is service. The more you bless, love and serve everyone then the most happiness is created. Let there be light! Please, tell the truth. The truth in audio is what you hear. If you have beliefs based on non experience then they may or may not be true. What you hear is always true. |
But right now we have 600 watt a channel mosfet class D dual mono amps that sound great for a mere $2000 (yours truly coming very soon).Now that's an ad to promote ones own goods, and the rest of the post trying to put others off getting or waiting for Class-D with GaN technology, and to purchase their's instead. Isn't that called shilling/canvassing or is there another word for it? Cheers George |
George, You should read the entire post he put up. He clearly says he is not telling anything until all the testing is done. Right now there are only three manufacturers of GAN amps....so we know two of them are probably in the mix. We will all have to wait till he posts more info. What will be really interesting is how a few of the latest mosfet amps compare with the brand new GAN amps. There are very few who have even listened to the latest class D amps.....let alone 4 different brands together and even more coming in to test. The findings should help everyone in different price ranges. I said earlier.....class D is all over the place....just like all classes. Whether using mosfets or GANs......all amps will sound different....for everything you do makes for different sound. There are mosfet based class D amps that are marvelous.......even though George says they are all crap. He has not heard the latest mosfet amps. Those of use that have heard the best of the latest mosfet amps know that Class D has already arrived. If GANs can take it higher....then that is good. But right now you need at least $15,000 to get a basic GAN amp (except for the 50 watt a channel Technics integrated). In a few years when GAN amps are available real cheap then these $15,000 plus amps will be boat anchors. There is no reason that a GAN amp has to be much more expensive than a mosfet amp. The difference in price between the devices is actually very small. The only reason Merrill and AGD are charging what they do......is because they can. You could take the circuitry in the AGD amps and put it in a basic black box (no tube nonsense and plexiglass with glowing LEDs inside) and sell it direct for maybe $5-6K for the pair. Once IcePower or Pascal or UCD or ? make modules with them then the prices of stereo amps will start at $1000. But right now we have 600 watt a channel mosfet class D dual mono amps that sound great for a mere $2000 (yours truly coming very soon). |
worldwidewholesales Hi, I'm very interested, which ones are these GaN models you are testing? Where do you post up the test results, graphs? Or is this subjective listening to them? Cheers George |
Hello jonasandezekiel, I am not surprised that you are not blown away by Wyred4Sound ICEpowered amps..... I have not heard yet Wyred4Sound amps that I have liked.... To be honest, I have not heard them for a few years, but what I have heard at RMAF until a few years ago sounded rather hard in the treble. If you can tell us your budget and power requirements, several of us can make some concrete suggestions based on models that we have experienced, and/or brands that we have learned to appreciate. Regards, Guido |
Hi Mapman, Yes we are currently testing 2 Class D amps with the GaN technology. We are being very careful with our testing and all amplifiers are going into 5 different systems, so right now we are just keeping our findings to our selves until the testing is done. I will say it was easy to eliminate the bad sounding Class D amplifiers very quickly. None of the amplifiers with GaN technology have been eliminated. Prices vary. Cheers, |
I’m now using wyred 4 sound mono blocks, and they’re just okay. They don’t add anything untoward, but don’t have much in the way of punch or bass kick I like to hear.These are Ice powered Class-D’s also, you stated below they were bright also, what speakers do you own, maybe that new GaN Technics SU-G30 could be good with them? Anyone with opinions on Wyred4sound’s monoblocks? I recently bought three, and they sound bright without much bass. Anyone? Here is the Technics SU-G30 review.
Cheers George |
I fell in love with class d when I bought (go easy on me) the Pioneer elite sc-09tx uber-receiver, some years ago. The bass and mids were absolutely intoxicating and to die for, while the highs were grating and painful. All coming from a pitch black background, no noise. It was definitely a good news, bad news sort of thing, but when it was good, it was REALLY good. It became like a drug addiction, I desperately searched for something that reproduced that fantastic mid range and powerful bass and that dead silence, without the harsh treble it was known for. I’m now using wyred 4 sound mono blocks, and they’re just okay. They don’t add anything untoward, but don’t have much in the way of punch or bass kick I like to hear. They're just not exciting, like the Pioneer. I’m now looking for a replacement for my amps....much like the OP. |
worldwidewholesales Yes I have 3 Class D amps ranging in original retail price from $100 to $6000 and I can say with certainty each sounds good but different. I’d specifically be wondering are you testing any Class D amps with the GaN technology? If so how does that compare to the others? Also the cost of each. Thanks. |
Hi, We are still doing our direct A/B testing with several different Class D amplifier brands that use different technology and I am certainly not a tech but the differences in sound between the different technologies is very audible. There are 4 amplifier manufactures that we have A/B that sound much better than other Class D manufactures we have tested. We are still testing and we still have a few more amplifiers to test but one thing for sure, Class D amplification comes in many different levels and the top level is very special. The problem might be, if you have not heard the very best of Class D, than the not so good Class D is not very good at all and this might turn you right off Class D. |
It’s my understanding that there are currently 2 leading producers of high-speed GaN power transistors, EPC and GaN Systems. Does anyone know if there are differences between the two of them and whether GaN Systems has a proprietary patent on their GaN FET transistor, too? Are there other producers of currently available GaN transistors with unique patents? Are there other producers of currently available high-speed GaN FET drivers besides Peregrine and their PE29102 driver? I’m just trying to better understand the companies and products involved in these emerging markets. Thanks, Tim |
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It will be several years before this GaN class D audio amplifier IP technology becomes truly affordable. I don’t believe so, EPC have already sold these to several Class-D manufacturers direct, and Digikey are already selling it, it doesn’t take much, just demand for a major semiconductor manufacturer to step in and purchase the right to make them for the masses, it’s like the Power Mosfet all over again, which they developed, and became the norm in no time at all. https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/ganfet-gallium-nitride/53212 Or you can buy the complete Evaluation Board and put it in a box. https://www.digikey.com/products/en?%20WT.z_cid=sp_917_0110_buynow&site=us&lang=en&mpart... Cheers George |
Hi Singingtheblues, I have listened to Devialet several times at RMAF, including I believe the 250.... I am not surprised that eventually you found it to be grating.... The overall house sound is certainly open, but a little too treble-happy for my taste... Some small amounts of treble hardness may have been traces of intermodulation. Regards, G.
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How long is it likely to be before GaN is in mid priced gear?That Technics SU-G30 which is a server as well as an integrated is the cheapest so far at $3900, but it's only 50w into 8ohm and 100 into 4ohm so not for everyone. So if that was a poweramp only, you would have to say high 2's. As I said I did contact EPC to find what and who are bringing them out, seems there are several more brands on top of what we now know. Cheers George |
As much as I’m a big fan of Class D, I’m not oblivious to the shortcomings. I recently owned a Devialet 250. When I first got it, I thought it was the best thing I’d ever heard. After a few months, it started to grate on me. Having read about this GaN, I’m happy to wait for it to trickle down. How long is it likely to be before GaN is in mid priced gear? |
I hope their use continues to trickle down to even more affordable amps as George predicted (good call). It seems they rather quickly went from only being used in the $50K Technics to these new AGD monos at $15K/pair. Still too steep for me but I can wait.. Yes EPC (who are the GaN developers) are looking for it to be used also in portable devices, if so that will cause a quite a kerfuffle also. Looking forward to how all this progresses Cheers George |
Hello georgehifi, The AGD mono amps you linked a review to look very interesting. https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/agd-production-vivace-gantube-monoblock-ampli... So, it sounds to me like you were right on the money about how these new GaN transistors ability to positively affect the sound quality of class D amps. The reviewer stated these amps "sound like a SET tube amp but with better dynamics and breadth". If true, that is an amp sound signature that could be revolutionary since.I believe it's the first of its kind. I've never heard of an amp described as combining SET tube sound with better dynamics and breadth. Of course, there's more than transistors that determines the sound qualities of an amp, right? Or could we be stuck thinking conventionally about a new technology that could prove to be game changing? Most of us are accustom to discussing the sound differences between amps that use FETs and Bi-Polar transistors, with a total lack of knowledge about the affects of using the new GaN transistors. All I know about these new GaN transistors is that they are significantly faster switching from on to off, and vice versa, which thus significantly reduces dead-time (the down time when a transistor is neither on nor off but in an in between idle state) that ultimately results in lower distortion. Lower distortion is always a good thing but could there be other forces at work that could result in improved performance? Currently, I have no answers to my own questions. I'm just thinking out loud and hoping you guys n gals will pitch in and help. I find this new GaN transistor technology very exciting but want to keep it in perspective. I hope their use continues to trickle down to even more affordable amps as George predicted (good call). It seems they rather quickly went from only being used in the $50K Technics to these new AGD monos at $15K/pair. Still too steep for me but I can wait.. Thanks, Tim |
I’ll consider your response promising. Like I said before, when this GaN technology becomes more affordable, and looking that this latest stuff coming out it’s not too far off. Those that were negative towards all the pro’s it had to offer from owners of the current hamstrung Class-D’s, those owners will be the first ones sell their older technology ones to purchase the newer GaN Class-D’s. As they will not want to be stuck with them, as they’ll be unsellable for a reasonable price. It could be compared to when silicon transistor amps came out, the older germanium transistor amps couldn’t even be given away. Cheers George |
One day maybe, when the price (not looks) of the performance of the SE-R1 comes down to the the price or lower of the SU-G30. GaN technology seems to be lit, just needs more semi conductor manufactures like Motorola, AD, Texas, ect ect. to purchase patent rights to make them from EPC (GaN) That’s how they (Lidow and co.) did it when they sold the rights to the power mosfet all those years ago, and if you remember the same scenario is going on here. Initial price of amps using them were very high then they crashed because so many manufacturers bought the rights to make them. BTW looking at the heatsinks in the SU-G30 above, that section is the GaN amp, it may have higher than todays 600khz switching because it’s using these heatsinks, as EPC said to me if left at 600khz there is no need for any heat sinking on any of the GaN boards, so it maybe higher. Could be a great sounding little amp, I can think maybe Quad ESL57’s would be nice as they can’t take to much wattage, or any > 90db speakers Cheers George |
Great find. GaN technology for $4k, and this Technics SU-G30 is also a complete network integrated amplifier. Seems like it doesn’t use the 1.5mhz higher switching frequency that the $20k Technics SE-R1 uses, but does use a hybrid power supply, not all smp, and by just using the GaN technology it’s probably front of all it’s competitors anyway. https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1837138-technics-sug30-network-amplifier.jpg What one reviewer thought Cheers George |
Speaking of the intrinsic perceived value of heavy amps with big handles, I can see why people like it. There is nothing like seeing fine CNC machine work with a wonderful anodized finish on metal, especially if it difficult to pick up alone. My Anthem M1 mono blocks are rack width, fairly deep and only about 1.75 inches tall. They weight around 25 pounds each, so 50 pounds for the two mono's. Since I too love the look of heavy amps and fancy handles; I machined a pair of fancy billet aluminum rack handles which are about 5 or so inches tall and perfectly fit to the heavy 1/2 inch thick front panels of the M1's when the stock 'winged' handles are removed. The two amps mount into holes machined precisely to match the OEM threaded holes in the panel from the sides at the top and bottom of the rack handles. So what I have is one amp suspended on top of the other amp with a 2 inch spacing between them for air circulation, vs simply stacking them directly on top of the other. The amps as so well built that the machine bolts going through the handles into the sides of the amp front panels is all that is needed to fully support one amp free floating over the other. I did put a rubber 'doughnut' at the back of the amps between them just for additional support for a just in case moment. But from the front or side view, all you can see is these two gorgeous amps floating behind the rack handles with the heat sinks on the sides... It looks fabulous. Next I plan on doing something similar with my stock Preamp. This is all useless superfluous eye candy, it does nothing for the performance or sound.... but probably the same can be said for 150 pound Class AB amps with super thick case work. I am lucky that I have the equipment to make this stuff myself. the two amps stacked with the large rack handles give the pair the look of a large Class A/AB amp, but it's still my wonderful Class D's with all of their efficiency :) :) I have the best of both worlds. |
No interest in listening but happy to pass along unsubstantiated fact by way of heresay" From what I have heard" last time I checked, that meant he heard them. And even if it "was" hearsay, I would Google if I were you, as many have said it. And I just noticed below, he owns Anthem Statement monoblocks, Class-D’s so "troll your self steve" |
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@nordacoustics. I see you copied and pasted a customer review from your website into your post. Since this is easily viewed by a copied URL link, it would save everyone here time to simply read the first part of your post pertaining to your products and then allow them to decide whether they want to click on the URL link to read the customer review. |
We offer both the ICE Power 1200AS2 amp and various Hypex NC500 based amps. The 1200AS2 is the first ICE or old B&O module we were happy to offer and ran our MKI NC500 very close to performance just a bit thinner but wins on value for money. But since our introduction of the MKII amp we have moved things on and are now receiving feedback from customers who have upgraded from REV C to REV D buffers or MKII amp spec. Feed back has been concretively hugely positive. The biggest winner here is the fact that Class D can not only beat Class A A/B on price but match and surpass on performance for those willing to take a leap in the dark and choose carefully. We can not match the intrinsic value of a well none monster and that pride of ownership that comes with paying a small fortune for that beautiful pair of mono blocks and we love the fact you do its what keeps this hobby alive. We will be working on that intrinsic value of a stunning hefty chassis on the coming months but in the mean time enjoy your amps be it Class D or A or A/B they make a huge difference. Here is a sample feedback from an enlightened old timer I've used Mcintosh for 50 + years. VTL and Pass Lab for the last 25 + also. I have many different (valve), pre and power amps
I sat for over 3 hours yesterday (Dec. 28), source was a server, silver disk, and about 45 min of vinyl. I've been rather busy, BUT I've been dealing with a distortion issue in the BASS section of the TIIse. Wound up being a surround on a 12" passive radiator. I inspected both and both were in bad order.
One day later: Did a quick swap with a different type surround and all is well. I need to adjust the new PRs not quite enough mass. Other than that. Wonderful! The bass extension and the AMOUNT of bass is pretty incredible. I'll probably do a driver swap and go to all BR surrounds, and a WCF for the bass coupler, and bass drivers. These are set up for Mcintosh MC275s (KT88 Valve sets). They can, drive a pretty heavy load AND sound good for a valve amp. I was just amazed at the 3 X increase in power with NO distortion. I'm NOT a big BASSHEAD, but these amps could capture the most critical ears fancy.
Two days later: Ok I did the driver swap, worked perfect. Night and day. Very controlled, DEEP and clear. At 90 db and above it is clear as a bell. I WAS having a problem.. Just a different way to drive a pretty difficult load. The Hypex does it with EASE. Drivers are broke in and it is running in NON bi amped or wired mode. These speakers only sounded like this when they were driven buy pairs of 10,000.00 plus US mono blocks. Mark Ls / Krells / Nelson Pass. The reason I had the driver upgrades, on hand.
It has been too cold for a GOOD comparison with planars or ribbon drivers. 60 deg F and above in that room, mid-Feb or so. I'ts still round speakers for a bit.
Four days later: I have been driving a pair of Infinity RS2B, 200hz> all true ribbons. DIFFERENT!!! I'm not sold on the sound. I find myself turning 2500>hz UP + 3-6 db. It is just my ear, being very use to Mcintosh/VTL tube units. I can however achieve the sound I like with a tweek or two. I'm not sure they are broke in yet (25 hrs on the mono blocks).
Jan 2, 2019: Ok the mono blocks are sounding better. I have close to 100 hours on them, now. It is a temp issue, at 75 deg F the whole system sound much better. The tone controls are -2db in the bass section and pretty flat on up. Sounds very QUIET, yet warm. I can add just what I need for the Coral, then back to Blues, then to soft Jazz.
Kids were in the front room, with a Nord system. "Da Club" 50.. lol neighbors came over, house was bouncin', yup!! The kids were REALLY impressed, they are real BASSHEADS. 20,000 watt 50,000 dollars sound systems in some of these kids rides. Sounded really good to me, I'm picky, buddy. I wound up taping one of the windows, and cracking a couple because of the HIGH PRESSURE, GEEZ they were hitting 110 db. and over 135 when they PUNCHED the sub system. ALL CLASS D, 4 rails @ 4 ohm 4000 RMS per rail, WAY TOO MUCH for me. Me, the dog, and the bunny had to go outside for a bit. Clear as could be, OUTSIDE!!!
All in all I like the new rev D with the sparco 2590. It is more to my taste. The rev C boards with SI are wonderful, just NO MOJO. The old guys around hear like the sparcos better, none of them have heard the new 2590s though, only the dual 3302?/3602? and dual single xx01 (non Nord / NC400 mod).
I'll give you the news when that crew shows up.
I'm sold !!! |
I have Bel Canto c5i based on fairly recent Icepower module. Probably the most easy on the ears SS amp I have ever had. I've used it with a variety of speakers, some that can lean towards being a tad fatiguing with the wrong amp. No reason to steer clear of Icepower IMHO. You just need a good total design around it, like with any amp. Bel Canto does it well. |
guidocoronaYour welcome, if you can get around the 6550 tube envelope bs around this, here's another one at a much cheaper price than Merrill and Technics using GaN technology. https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/agd-production-vivace-gantube-monoblock-ampli... Cheers George |
singtheblues, If you want specific recommendations, you still need to let us know your budget, the rest of your system any other requirements. Even a dollar range will do. You need to throw us a bone, here for good suggestions. There are a wide variety of good class D amps at a wide range of price points. I consider under $1K as low priced, $1 to about $8K as mid priced and over about $8K as high priced (all prices $USD) My opinion is that you're best option is to choose amps that allow in-home trial periods of a few weeks so you can return them, no questions asked, for a full refund if you don't like them. Later, Tim |
Not that I understand everything said in this clip, it’s interesting to watch. https://youtu.be/g3-eKrltKkE |
Hi slimpikins5, your concern of ICEpower-based amps sounding sub-musical has some merits, if mostly from a historical point of view.... Examples of such unsatisfying amps could be found easily in some older class D amps such as the Wyred4Sound that I have heard at RMAF until about five years ago (They might have changed since then), early Red Dragon 500, and stock Rowland M201 and M501 (that is without being connected to the optional PC-1 PFC external rectifier). This however does not imply that all ICEpower based amps are inherently less than musical... In fact, even some now elderly amps that I have had in my system such as the Rowland M312 stereo and the Bel Canto REF1000M were authentic musical marvels, particularly for the time. I have heard only good third party reports about recent ICEpower implementations... ’Tis worth keeping an open mind about ICEpoweer amps designed in the last three to four years. particularly if they are not simply boxes containing more or less basic ICEpower modules and little else. ICEpower modules are very flexible... A manufacturer can use them all by themselves to create an entry level amp, or can use them as building blocks in the design of amps of any increasing level of sophistication. Saluti, Guido |
Hello George, an intriguing press release indeed... please let us know about any adopters of the high speed Peregrine/Murata Gan power conversion modules. While proof shall remain forever in the proverbial pudding, keeping an open mind on the theoretical potential of such technical advances is definitely worth our audiophrenic attention. Saluti, G.
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