+1 Tim.
George has trouble making the case that a particular technical issue (i.e. dead time) results in a particular sonic aberration common to many Class D amplifiers.
As I may have mentioned, I’ve had a number of audiophiles in my home (when it was better acoustically than now) and no one said "wow, that’s a Class D amp!"
They may not have liked the sound stage, since I make pretty laid back speakers, but not a single person has ever stopped and gone "Woah, that dead time man, how can you stand it?" In my bedroom I use an NAD 3020 D and it is pretty fine sounding. No switching artifacts can be discerned. If you only believe in reviews, fine, go read them and tell me which published reviewer says they can tell its class D.
In fact, once at the end of watching a movie did of watching a movie did my invitees say "by the way, where are your amps?" All my fronts were Class D with a Parasound driving the Surrounds. The sound was seamless. No one heard a difference in noise, distortion or coloration. Room EQ was applied to the sub and center only.
From a practical experience, and listening with others, I am fairly confident of my experience. Class D is dandy. I also have no particular reason to push Class D to those who like tubes, mega Class A or SETs. Enjoy what you want to listen to, with friends and enjoy it. What I have problems with are heroic efforts being made to make people doubt their own experience with Class D. Damn, I wish I could afford a pair of CJ Premiere 12s, because those beat everything ever.
Like Tim, I look forward to new technology. Since I consider Class D being capable of exceptional performance when matched well, I can only hope modern tech makes it even better. But 300 links to discussions about distortion profiles in the 100kHz range are not going to convince me something is wrong with my hearing.
Best,
E
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-10 George and Calendar for being less than truthful, mischaracterizing other Audiogon members, including myself and projecting.
I've never attacked you personally, show me a place where I have, George?
Nor have I thought your war of web links was constructive or useful.
In fact, George, you personally asked me to let those who enjoy their audio enjoy it and let them be at peace, while you attack everyone who likes Class D as having poor hearing and owning "junkers."
So, George, why haven't you let those who enjoy Class D as it is today, enjoy it? Wasn't this what you asked me to do? And are you not pretty much telling us we must not have very good hearing if we like it?
I'm describing your behavior, by the way. That's not a personal attack. That's a summary.
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I've marked your posts @celander for being disparaging as well as inappropriate characterization of what I have done.
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Erik, yes, I’m George. I will always be George,
I believe this is true. |
Celander,
Are you George?
You should mark George's entire presence in Audiogon regarding Class D for review.
We've been absolutely patient, open minded and requesting of more information. He's routinely obliquely insulted, and disparaged a number of members, while failing overall to make his points on their merits, and here you are suggesting we read all his threads to get him to talk about personal experiences and preferences.
So, please, mark away.
Best,
E
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I’m fed up with the relentless attacks against George being posted on
this thread. If members don’t stop the nonsense, then I hope the
moderators shut down this thread. The attacks aren't personal. They are based on his behavior. He really has a problem with anyone enjoying current Class D and every thread that is about enjoying current affordable Class D George inserts himself into them in ways that are the opposite of constructive. So, sorry you are fed up, but a lot of us are also fed up. Delete the thread. I'll start one called "I like inexpensive Class D amps" and George will be right there calling my amps "junkers" and telling me my hearing is not good enough. Will I delete that thread too? E |
George has stated he has heard a variety of class D designs in a variety of threads. Funny thing that George can cut and paste the same web links over and over again, but has trouble doing the same for his personal opinions. I daresay George has spent more energy in all of Audiogon refuting people who like class D. Since he spends so much time and effort, let him make his case for his personal experiences in each thread too. It is not up to us to chase down his previous posts to help him make his claims. Erik |
Maybe it’s time for a group hug with Eric? Too busy listening to my marvelous Class D amps to bother with other humans. |
From what I have heard, skip the ICE Module amps.... They are the harsh ones on the upper frequencies.
I am using ICE 250 ASP with speakers using AMT drivers that are measurably flat past 20kHz. Not a bit of harshness in them. They sound just like the Parasound A21s I had before. Best, E |
I state this based on my own experiences using multiple class D
amps in my system for about 4 yrs, the complete lack of evidence that
current signal carrier frequencies in the 400-600 KHz range affect
frequencies in the audible range, anecdotal claims of class D upper
frequency harshness being based on early class D amps and very rarely on
the newer good quality amps and my complete inability to detect any
sonic anomalies or upper frequency harshness. If you can’t perceive any
sonic issues then you have no sonic issues, right? Exactly. We can debate switching speeds forever, but the fact remains: No one has ever said to me "Geesh, those amps, they're awful, I can hear the switching." No one has EVER been able to tell whether my amps were linear or Class D unless told they were in advance. Best, E |
I’m pushing Class-D with this newer technology, because the old
technology that’s basically been the same since it started (save for
some input detours) is flawed. Reason why all detractors ALWAYS find the
mid/highs are not right.
Right, you've called all Class D except for something new and expensive "junkers." Further, you have disparaged everyone who likes Class D as not having good enough hearing, and you told me to leave those who want to enjoy what they like alone. Lastly, and most importantly, here like everywhere else, your ears refuse to accept the reality that a lot of modern class D is already excellent. A real charmer.. |
The human ear is capable of decoding intermixed harmonics and timing
cues into the 200khz plus ---with zero jitter. Micro and macro signals
intermixed. With two ears doing this as a combined spaced pair, with the
micro and macro intermixed temporal cues. So what, specifically, does this mean for what specific class D amplifier? I could pull out a dozen measurements of your favorite Class A amp that show it is imperfect, and none of them may have anything to do with the perception of sound. Best, E |
George,
Weren't you the person who advised me to let those who like a technology go and enjoy it?
Because every time an A'gonner says they are buying or like Class D you are right there telling them how wrong they are, bringing up 40 year old complaints and claiming, without evidence, that there are technical hurdles that must be overcome before Class D becomes listenable?
Based on reading so many of your threads, I would say your biggest problem isn't technology, it's users. You just don't want people to like Class D.
Best,
E
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Damn George, for some one who doesn't like Class D you sure talk about it all the time.
Maybe take your own advice?
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Okay, I just wanted to add a comment to my previous post to agree with
other posters (that only appeared to me and I read after I posted) that
potential lightning strikes are an extremely legitimate reason to unplug
your amps and components.
Nothing wrong with that. Best, E |
I had a Parasound Zone Master Class D amp on loan to give an evaluation
of. It uses the ICE Power modules and in that particular case, it did
sound better after a long warm up period or as Parasound told me at
least a 200 hour break in period.
That's interesting. Also, here's the manufacturer, not George, telling you how long a warm up to expect. :) Poor George, found wrong again. I should point out it this is also interesting for me as I replaced Parasound A21s with IcePower. I could not hear a difference even knowing which was which. Best, E |
I'd like to answer George (above):
Amps are adjusted and calibrated at the factory for peak performance
after a short 1/2-1hr warm when they've reached operating temperature,
even tubes, to say they sound better after hours and hours is a furphy.
With another quote of his from another thread:
Give it up be happy with yours, that you say you can't hear any problems with it. And let those that can, and have been down that path go the way they want.
Best, E
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Eric’s report of very long warm up time for ICEpower amps is similar to mine.... Glad to hear I am not alone. Although with my old ROland M312 I started to hear better sound after one hour or so.... Ahhh! This reminds me of a JR Class D amp I heard years ago, cold. It was painful to listen to. It was only many years later that I went with all Class D and didn’t put the two together. Thanks! E |
I use Furman with LiFT and SMP to reduce noise and protect from surges.
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As far as warm up is concerned, I cannot hear any differences in a cold
start up vs. the amp having been on for 4 hours... other than Bourbon
has taken over and everything in the room is just better.
Me neither. I can only hear it after at least 24 hours. I suspect this is very amp specific however. But mine are stock ICEpower modules. YMMV. |
One thing I should point out: I have no explanation but my Class Damps sound pretty mediocre unless warmed up for about 72 hours.
If you are auditioning amps cold, or recently moved, and you don't like the sound, that could very well be why.
Do use your own ears. Don't think that Class D means zero warmup time.
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