I have to ask this(actually, I thought I mentioned this in another thread.). It's been at least 25 years of digital. The equivalent in vinyl is 1975. I am currently listening to a pre-1975 album. It conveys the soul of music. Although digital may be more detailed, and even gives more detail than analog does(in a way), when will it convey the soul of music. This has escaped digital, as far as I can tell.
I just want to correct the statement that rumble is in the same spectra(is that a word?) as ticks and pops. I believe ticks and pops are way up in the khz, but also that's where extra-musical stuff is.
I once read a post on another thread where the listener (an audiophile) was moved to tears listening to his ordinary radio in the kitchen when one of his favourite classical piece was being played.
I wonder if it was the soul in the radio or it was the listeners soul which was moved by that piece in the given circumstances he was in.
It was actually the spectrum of a Dover Sole, which I grokked after irradiating it with 4th dimensional subtle frequencies emanating from my Machina Dinamica radionic clock. Unfortunately I found the darn sole not to have a soul, but only shreds of one. . . bunch of little spectra [plural of the latin word spectrum (2nd declination, neutrall)] floating around in little bottles of Brilliant Pebbles, lost in the atomic effect engendered by all those subtle vibes pooring forth from all those carefully machined precious and semi-precious stones. . . oh what a culinary musically moving delight! I am crying pan-galactic tears just thinking about the beloved flounder. . . Ah, if only Gunther Grass were here, I am sure he could make something of this oh most arch-typical of Ur-fish!
And I wrote pooring instead of pouring on purpose, for the generically branded form of Brilliant little Pebbles being readily available for only penneys per pound at any self-respecting rock show, will perform their higher-dimensional magic for even the stingiest of audiophiles.
I recently purchased the Bill Evans Trio's "Waltz for Debbie" on CD. It has to be one of the best live recordings of that famous trio I have heard. It was recorded live at the Village Vanguard, and you hear people coughing, glasses clinking, and chatting in the background. But you can also hear the hush of the crowd when an amazing passage is being played. I traveled with that CD. I didn’t worry about imaging, or my Thiel's harsh high end, or tight bass. I just dug Bill Evans emotion on the piano, Lafaro's brilliant conversations on the bass, Motian's subtle brush work. So I do think music has a soul. That recording moved me.
Listeners have soul too. As a jazz fan, I imagined myself at the VV, drink in one hand, babe in the other, diggin' The Trio. In reality, my would-be date would probably have been wishing we were at a Pretenders show the whole time. Point is...we all relate better to what we love. I love that recording, regardless of the vinyl pops, or digital info voids. That format allowed me to stay in the chair for an hour, uninterrupted, and enjoy.
Turn down the lights, get your favorite libation, pick a desert island recording, and dive in. All the techy garbage is just the messenger. Don’t kill the messenger, listen to the message.
bilbo- thanks for supplying your note of commonsense sanity. I, too, have the Bill Evans recording. Just plain fine music. I also have the re-released "Everbody Digs Bill Evans"; another winner. Music with soul.
Isn't audio just a suspension of belief(or is that disbelief)? Whatever does this provides an escape from our day-to-day life. Analog(for me)does this and(this opens up a pandora's box) also changes the brainwaves. I am interested in digital doing this(I'm limited to 1981 and earlier albums.). I just need to know what(equipment?) is necessary.
Tvad, I appreciate your heads-up about my writings. I can see it from your 12-step comments. I may deviate a little bit from the main subject from now on, but I can see that it is harder to follow what I'm saying when I use parenthesis.
Don't get mad at me for posting this. Although I believe that I should do research in the area of the best cd players for the money, I have a problem. In many cases, I get tense listening to cd. I know that many people don't, so I'm not sure that their advice might apply to me. I have heard that tubes might help this. There is another problem. Sometimes digital doesn't make sense to me-especially with high-end players. With cheaper systems, cd can sometimes sound too hard for me. Anyhow, just some thoughts. Thanks Tvad.
"I get tense listening to cd. I know that many people don't, so I'm not sure that their advice might apply to me."
Something is incompatible with digital in your system, fact is a system designed around analog will likely not sound good playing digital and your tenision with digital is likely more a reflection of your equipment's capability than your tastes and sensibilities. Please do not read that you have poor equipment, a Dirt Late Model is not the same as one made for asphalt. Though they are both very fast 358 cu inch cars and run on 1/2 mile circuits one is better on one surface than the other. Your audio system will likely be the same way.
Digital is very linear and its dynamic range is and can be disconcerting to listeners
Analog, compressed (RIAA), EQ, very non linear and is easier to listen too, highs are not linear and for equipment to playback. So the stress levels are down on all parts.
My system is designed around digital, I make compromises and adjustments on preamp and cartridge selection to adjust my analog accordingly to a system that will not flatter it. You may need to do the same (in reverse).
The Dirt Late Model analogy about the asphalt,vs the dirt is not a matter of digital vs analog. The 358 cu inches is carburators vs fuel injection would be right.The dirt vs asphalt ....your room aka.. walls of drywall vs all carpet all round etc...ABSORPTION WILL SLOW YOUR SOUND .
I want to apologize to Lkdog. I never get the motives of people right, and there were hidden motives in my asking the question. First, I heard a cd by Connie Dover,"Last Night by the River" at Ori's, of Oritek Audio, house that was listenable to me. This interested me a little in cd, since I'm stuck with 1981 or earlier albums. Second, I wanted to point out to the youngsters that analog can be a cheap way to enjoy music. Third, I actually was hoping to discuss ways to make cd more enjoyable. I certainly don't want to be responsible for someone who is an audiophile and a therapist, which is very unique, to withhold his insight on things.
"Digital is very linear and its dynamic range is and can be disconcerting to listeners." D_edwards, you hit the nail on the head for me. Maybe that is what causes my tension when listening to cd? BTW, I might have an opportunity to hear a super high-end system built around digital soon. He posted his system on audiogon. He goes by Oneobgyn.
Digital has an edge that has not been overcome yet. It's hard to explain, but as much as SACD and DVD-A have improved on resolution, that digital edge is still there. When I put an LP on, it's a whole nother world.
For those that enjoy digital and don't hear this, then you get to listen the more convenient media and enjoy it without all of the little inconveniences. I still enjoy digital (redbook and SACD), but analog has a transparency and lushness that I haven't heard with digital.
Yes, actually it's been more than 15 posts. I want to point out Oneobgyn's post on Audiogon about his system. I couldn't get it here, so maybe it requires looking up. I'm suprised by the cost of his Wilson X-2's, which are over $100,000. Anyhow, I liken Ori's X-2's to Koetsu cartridges, in that they convey something about music that escapes most components. I want to introduce another subject here. I know that Audiogon is about high-end, but I'm wondering if there is anything that can be done about car stereo's cd players. This is mainly where I hear the hardness that I speak of. Would something like Mapleshade's reveal and another thing, plus iconoclast do something to alleviate that?
Tvad, I want to apologize to you. I believe my last post short-shifted you. You have very interesting things to say. It's just, with me, sometimes, it triggers an inappropriate response. I would guess that you are a Scorpio, but I've lately struck-out in that area. I actually had retired Oritek X-1's, in favor or Elf Audio's ccc interconnects, and told Ori about that. Yes, I consider him a friend. He emailed me and said if you want your PRAT, here it is. He meant the X-2's. Yes, I'm a shrill for the masses that want, or need, music in the home. If you look at my moniker on Audio Circles, you would understand where I'm coming from. I'm not saying that it is superior, since I haven't heard the best. I hope to hear close to the best soon. I just have an obligation to say the truth, in terms of what's affordable to the average guy. I stand by what I said.
01-03-06: Mmakshak The thing is, Wc65mustang, is that there have been so many advances in cable-just in the last 4-5 years, that I can assure you that the Oritek X-2 will outperform almost all of the top-ten interconnects of all time
Just over a week ago, you were touting the X-2 as one of the top ten IC's of all time, and now you claim not to have heard the best. Furthermore, today's post would have us believe that you have not even heard the X-2's at all:
Yes, I consider him a friend. He emailed me and said if you want your PRAT, here it is. He meant the X-2's.
Finally, this thread in which you disparage digital playback turns out to be primarily due to the sound of car stereos? And CD players from 1988 and earlier? As I said before, this discussion is over. You make-a no sense, and the horoscope comment is only deepening my confusion.
Hmmm... Odd thread that won't die here. The old interminable and unresolvable LP versus digital car stereo argument. :)
FWIW, I have an Ecilpse car stereo CD player with Ecilpse separates. Sounds fanastic. I have a decent turntable front end which I truly enjoy. I have a nice digital source I also really like. I have a 20 Gig IPOD with wonderful 15$ Koss KSC 35 headphones which sounds great. In the end it is about the music to me. All of the above do a great job.
If you truly dislike digital as a medium, then move along as there is another forum called Analog that might suit you better. We here on the Digital forum generally enjoy digital. If you are trolling, then you have wasted enough bandwidth for one thread. Good luck.
I guess these discussions must get personal? Boa2, I like how you signed yours with Aires. It seems like if one doesn't like the message, we kill the messenger? I'm not sure I'm putting out a message. I also think that it's about time a discussion like this takes place.
What I meant Boa2 was that the top ten interconnects were going to heavily favor older ones that have been superceded recently. I wanted to give a balance to someone who might use the answers for a purchase decision.
Let me disclose my personal relationship with Ori of Oritek Audio. I went to his house to purchase a pair of X-1's. I spent 3 hours listening to his system while waiting out rush hour. I then emailed him a bit, mostly criticizing his X-1's in my system. This turned out to be interaction problems with my Signal Cable Silver Resolution interconnects. He emailed me, saying if you want your PRAT, my X-2's have it. I went to buy them, and spent about 2 hours listening to his system while having my Nuforce's updated. I've emailed him since, raving about their sound. Is that a personal relationship?
"The old interminable and unresolvable LP versus digital car stereo argument." Lkdog, that's great! I didn't chose to put the forum here. Maybe the use of the word digital caused it to be put here?
Tvad: "Mmakshak" is a paying customer. I often invite local customers over to listen and compare their cables to mine. I appreciate a word of mouth, but I don't ask anybody to post anything. In this particular case, to post a lot... If you ever get to know Mmakshak, you are surely to find that he is a very enthusiastic person... At this point, I think he has said just about all he can or should say about his relationship with Oritek Audio: a local paying customer. If you are local, drop me a line too and come over to listen for yourself. You don't have to buy anything, but you do have to bring an interesting set of cables, or an amp maybe... That is my "fee"...
I just wanted to mention a few things here about digital. One well-respected reviewer says that he has "a 1985 chip, no oversampling, no digital filter, and a proprietary tube-based, re-construction filter at the end. I know that someone here recommended oversampling. Someone else said that advances in the last 4-5 years have elevated cd playback. A designer said that DSP corrections are where it's at. There was one other thing mentioned, but I think it might have to do with what Meitner does(I can't find it.)? Any further thoughts?
the last decade has brought about 'serious' advances in the remastering and manufacturing of the compact disc. the reality on the hardware side is that (unfortunately)the players(at any price) cannot perform miracles with the thousands of poorly made discs that are out there. the cosmetics and the exotic materials that we audiophiles love have pushed the envelope and the price on the hardware side into the abyss. many of the early players are nearly as refined(soundwise) as many of the 5-figured 'newer' front ends, when used with more recent cd production efforts. to this day, any workhorse turntable with a decent arm and cartridge will push more emotion through a stereo system than any digital front-end. our want for something more from our cd's will always be the subject of debate, and the money 'down-the-drain' in search for hardware, will find many of us running in circles for a few more years, anyway.
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