Jwm, please re-read the quote, and perhaps the article too. What you said is exactly what the author IS saying. I thought the article was quite interesting because the author made a very cogent case maintaining that the redbook CD format of 16 bit/44.1 KHz is more than sufficient for excellent playback --- IF and that's a big IF -- the music was better recorded, mastered and engineered. It's not the format that's the problem. It the production process.
Well at least that's what the author said.
Best,
Bruce |
You can compare the Redbook layer and the SACD layer on some hybrids where both layers were taken from the same source and done with the greatest possible care. I am thinking of Steve Hoffman's Creedence hybrids - the mastering engineer has gone on record as saying the source is identical. Can you hear the difference in your system?
Regards, |
Metralla, what is your opinion re the Steve Hoffman hybrid? |
Ooh, Mapman, gonna have to disagree with you when you say in your last post - "Has nothing to do with getting the soul though." It has EVERYTHING to do with that, especially in large scale orchestral music, where there is such a HUGE range of different emotions expressed in say a lengthy Mahler symphony. It also has to do with the "low level detail" discussion we have been having on a different thread. A very great deal of the emotional subtleties are lost, since so much of the subtleties of the huge range of timbres are lost. That's not a well written sentence at all, LOL, but I think the point is nevertheless clear? |
Metralla I'm not talking about comparing to the redbook layer in the same disc. I'm talking about comparing SACD to its RED book counterpart. The redbook layer on the SACD is never as good as the SACD of it. I have always found the redbook cd by itself is always better than the redbook of a hybrid cd. |
Yeah, I was going to scratch the nothing to do with soul comment but it was too late. I was thinking classical and soul as two distinct beasts, but not really the case. |
I just had a friend go to the Colorado Symphony Orchestra last night. He kind of listens to Waylon and Willie on da am radio in the pick m up if ya kno wat i mean. And that is about it. He is about 40yrs old. He said he had a cool time last night at the symphony. I feel that the symphony music is not appreciated as it could be because of the poor replication of it all the way from the recording process down to the sound systems we play it on. There is a LOT that gets lost it seems or that goes missing. Symphony music has it all. It has a ton of soul and color and emotion and expression, ect. I think the poor reproduction especially in the digital format, might be a strong reason that people don't connect to it. |
I admit I have not gone through all 15 pgs of this, I'm just skipping to the end (this IS unlike me) so if its been said already just tack this on as a +1 ( or + #) for the fact that digital's soul has arrived with at least one new Dac (there are likely more?) It's the Lampizator Big 6. SOUL Baby, S O U L. |
11-03-13: Jwm writes: I'm not talking about comparing to the redbook layer in the same disc. I'm talking about comparing SACD to its RED book counterpart. The problem with that is to ensure the mastering is the same. That's why I gave you the Hoffman Creedence example. The redbook layer on the SACD is never as good as the SACD of it. Ummm, OK. I think I would have no argument that. I have always found the redbook cd by itself is always better than the redbook of a hybrid cd. I don't see why this should be so. Can you be certain they have the same mastering? Could you tell me a specific example so I can make the comparison myself. Regards, |
A very short list of DACs I've personally heard that possess "soul" and are natural sounding with much emotional involvement. Alphabetically,
1)Concert Fidelity.
2 ) Modwright -Oppo 105.
3) Triode Corp. CD player and DAC.
4) Yamamoto YDA DAC (both the tube and SS versions)
I know there are others like the Lampizator(much word of mouth support) for instance but I have no listening experience with them. |
The soul for digital playback has been around for 60+ years, it's made by Western Electric. What you need is a pr. of 111C repeating coils. I have a pr connected to McIntosh MVP851 in one set-up & another connected to a Musical Fidelity cdp &dac.
You'll notice the difference in less than 5 min. Besides the 111C you can also use 93A or 77A. |
It has.....Ypsilon CDT-100 & DAC-100. This combo is on the same level as the best analog out there. Once you here this combination you will never look back at analog. There would be no need. It is that good, maybe even better. |
I suspect that Double DSD will be very close to vinyl. And then there is Quad DSD which is what SONY is usings to archive their tape holdings before the tapes are all lost. Soon, Quad DSD files will be available. There will be nothing closer to achieve. The Sabre 9018 and 19 chips such as in the Oppo 105 can play Double DSD. The real question is getting the information from the hard drive to the dac. |
Digital v analog, blah blah blah....this thread has been alive for years.
You can get the "soul of the music" on a stock FM radio in a Ford Focus at 65 mph if the attitude is right. Case in point; years ago I was driving on I70 north of Dayton, Ohio when a song I had never heard comes on the radio. It affected me so deeply I had to pull off at the upcoming exit to listen and find out what I was hearing. I got off the exit and went searching for a music store to purchase the cd. It was Jeff Buckley singing Hallalujah.
The soul of the music is not in the grooves, pits or digits, it's in the listener's heart (or mind for the logical thinkers). |
Timrhu; I hear you and I am not in disagreement with you, however, :) I think you may be taking a different route than the meaning behind this post. I think we are more concerned with a great deal of digital devices NOT being able to capture the ethereal emotional content that music contains. It seems that pure analog sources have an easier time with this elusive non-quantized metric than digital does (although I am one to admit the newer turntables are sounding more and more sterile and less musical to me). I will say that I have heard some digital capture this magic and I believe my AMR DP777 is one of those units, but I still hear ultra expensive digital (like the $90K DA converter I recently listened to) which simply has no clue; I mean they can sound absolutely PRISTINE with all the resolution of an electron scanning microscope and absolutely sound NOTHING like music if you get my meaning :) |
I have heard some $90K Analog Equipment that sounds just as....sterile? It sounded just as you described "PRISTINE with all of the resolution of an electron scanning microscope and absolutely sound NOTHING like music". In fact I have tried to search for a particular Turntable/Cartridge/Tonearm/Phonostage that produces the classical Analog sound. On occasion I have found such combinations ( The Cost Was Irrelative ). It sounds to me like it has something to do with the midrange. The midrange blooms, it breathes, it has lots of 3D decay, it reaches out and grabs the listener, the presence sends shivers up your spine. Being in the presence region might have something to do with it. Odd, or even order harmonic content might have something to do with it. I try to avoid Analog set-ups that try to compete with the old classical CD Sound ( Sterile with overemphasis of detail ). In the past this is what Turntable manufacturers did to compete with CD ( Many Did- Not All ). I am finding it harder to find an Analog Rig that still has that classical Analog sound. I am starting to find more Digital set-ups that are starting to emphasize it more, and capture it ( Maybe Not As Well As Analog, but Analog doing so is becoming rare ). The right Recording seems to be critical to getting this effect ( With Loads of Midrange Harmonic Content- Even or Odd Order ). I have heard lots of Analog Records that encapsulate the classical, sterile CD sound. It seems to me to be a sweet spot of just the right combination of recording, and equipment. Used to be just a phenomenon of Analog only- this has changed. This sound might be beneficial to classical and pop, jazz Music. I don't think it does Rock, or Heavy Metal a lot of justice. Leading edge initial attack might become blurred with emphasized harmonic content. It is hit, or miss with both Analog- and Digital. Personal preferences will mostly dictate. |
There was a hope during the pinnacle of ladder DACs such as PCM63P-K and AD1865. Hi-end industry ruined it with the race for higher sampling rates. The soul was lost in translation. |
03-30-14: Audiofun
Timrhu; I hear you and I am not in disagreement with you, however, :) I think you may be taking a different route than the meaning behind this post. I think we are more concerned with a great deal of digital devices NOT being able to capture the ethereal emotional content that music contains. I think if we were more concerned with listening to the music for the ethereal emotional content than listening to the device providing the music we might more easily realize that connection. My grandsons have no problem connecting to the soul of the music while listening to mp3s on their ipods or phones thru the crappy Apple headphones. I still contend the "soul" of music is in the music and the heart of the listener. Not the playback device, no matter the quality. If the only way to get an emotional connection to the music is thru a perfect playback media we are in a sad state. Rather than listening to the device for flaws we should relax and as John Kay sang, "Close your eyes girl, look inside girl, let the sound take you away." Nothing at all wrong with striving for the best playback of a recorded event. That is what this hobby is about. |
There was a hope during the pinnacle of ladder DACs such as PCM63P-K and AD1865. Hi-end industry ruined it with the race for higher sampling rates. The soul was lost in translation. Sure, but those cannot process DSD which, to my ears, has the ability of providing the "soul of the music", just like pure analog, and unlike any other digital format currently available. At least this is my experience after dealing with digital for quite some time now. Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
I think if we were more concerned with listening to the music for the ethereal emotional content than listening to the device providing the music we might more easily realize that connection. My grandsons have no problem connecting to the soul of the music while listening to mp3s on their ipods or phones thru the crappy Apple headphones.
I still contend the "soul" of music is in the music and the heart of the listener. Not the playback device, no matter the quality. If the only way to get an emotional connection to the music is thru a perfect playback media we are in a sad state. Rather than listening to the device for flaws we should relax and as John Kay sang, "Close your eyes girl, look inside girl, let the sound take you away." Tim, you are spot-on sir! . |
I no longer except the premise that analog is inherently superior to digital as I once did. I've just heard one too many turn table setups that simply sound clinical, lifeless and artificially detailed. I've heard digital sources playing plain old redbook sound captivating and full of emotion and life. Both mediums can be musically involving and both can yield hifi sterility. Designer talent and implementation are the key for either format. I can live contently with either if done properly.
Charles, |
Charles is spot on here. I went down the analog road purchasing an expensive turntable and phono preamp combo only to be disappointed. It sounded fine and all, but no better than a well executed digital front end.
Both can get you great sound and one is not better than the other. Both, when well implemented in a system sound fantastic! |
Since Sony preportedly is going to put its master tapes all on quad DSD, I suspect that will be the end of the difference. Master tapes will be digital. I suppose there willl be less dense copies because of portability.
Now all I need is a DSD source for my Exemplar Oppo 105 mod and for the LampizatOr both of which can play native DSD, I think. |
Timrhu, I took my hat off for you, Sir. Analog is soul of the past and digital is soul of the future. I never understand why people think everything is better 50 year ago. Let's face it. Every thing on the face of the earth is better now than ever. |
I love digital but I am now the newly converted (analog). When it is done RIGHT, and I mean every cylinder needs to be firing correctly Analog is in my opinion sans pareil. I for years would state and still to this day believe that when you have superlative digital, DCS/AMR/Playback Design/Meitner/Stahltek/Super Bidat/Dynavox Dynastation...etc. it can be difficult for analog to keep up if it is not optimized.
The KEY is OPTIMIZATION. When you have the correct table with the right arm/cartridge combination, phono stage, clamp...etc...> This is still not enough. Is the setup done EXCELLENTLY and I can not stress this enough. My SP10 MK3/ PH77 + Graaf GM70/Kuzma 4 Point/Ortofon MC Anna sounds FANTASTIC (if I do say so myself :)... and I will LOL BUT I can change my VTF by 2/100ths of a gram and it will collapse!!!
I can change the VTA by a minuscule amount and it will shut it down. Remember this is a microscopic world we are dealing with and a lot of tables are just not setup correctly. Also a lot of modern mass produced tables have horrible bearings.
Avid, Basis, TW Acoustic all have fantastic bearings as does Feikert and Brinkman... to name just a few.
My digital which to me is VERY VERY good, at this point, it simply can not keep up with my analog. AMR DP777/iPurifier/iUSB Power/2x Gemini USB cables (better than and replaced my former $3K Locus Design Cynosure/custom Duelund VSF BLACK output coupling caps.
Now having said that I had NEVER and I mean NEVER heard analog at a show or in a friends home that sounded nearly as good a my digital.., but when in my own home and METICULOUSLY setup and broken in... it is a revelation. VTF/VTA/Azimuth/Anti Skate/Loading/Correct EQ .., I find Diana Krall albums only sound good to me with Enhanced RIAA.
All I am saying is make sure you have that microscopic world absolutely setup correctly and experiment with clamps/weights :)
Just my analog novice 2 cents :)
Enjoy |
When everyone gets that ac power conditioning is vital!. Until then "no one" can't evaluate.
It's like dirty water. It can kill you----purified, you must have it. How simple. |
Ptss:
You are very correct, power cords as well as wall sockets have a profound effect on my system. I use one of the original PSAudio P300's to power the phono stage and TT. I plan to power the entire system with a few P10's eventually. The P300 really does make a difference and I use it at 65hz. |
Every thing on earth will have profound effect on your system if you don't have enough power (more than the maximum rating) to drive their speaker. Most folk will never able get the soul of MUSIC because they listen to their sound instead of their MUSIC. |
I don't know about the soul, but the High Fidelity Ultimate Reference Rhodium pc on the Exemplar eXpo T 105 mod of the Oppo 105, has a more realistic sound stage than my Lenco/Ikeda 407 with their 9TT cartridge/BMC MCCI vinyl. If you don't get goosebumps with realism in a great performance, there is something wrong with you. |
How is Rhodium used in the High Fidelity PC... And what is its audible performance virtue? G. |
Tbg,
Coming from you that's quite a statement as I know how much you enjoy your BMC phono- analog set up. As I've said before, both mediums can be splendid and both can be uninspiring.
Charles, |
Charles1dad, I never thought I would say that either. They are quite different, but digital has gotten quite close, if not ahead.
If as rumored, Sony transfers all it master tapes to quad DSD, master analog tapes will no longer be the definition of best. I'm soon to have a double DSD capable music server. No doubt quad DSD is some way off. But I'm moving to be prepared. |
Guidocorona, hi long time no see. I think Schultz merely fines a smooth plating is needed and Rhodium allows it. I personally prefer berelium/copper but that has gotten hard to find in the US. |
Digital itself is not the problem. As a medium it is (for the most part) neutral. Digital has opened up the doors to more processing, and what affects soul the most- the ability to fix it later. This putting off of decisions has affected the recording process greatly.
It can be avoided by producers who know what they're doing and the musicians. Digital itself isn't to blame- if you think it is, take your LP and convert it properly to digital. Play back in a blind A/B test and report the findings:)
Analog processing certainly helps paint a prettier picture on digital's neutral canvas. |
Neo from Matrix may have answers on how to digitally sample the spirit! |
Having just returned from the RMAF and again heard very musical reproduction of mono records, I think there is a clear difference between the best digital sound and the best vinyl sound. The first is very musical and the second can be very real sounding, as though you are there at the recording.
I bought my first cds in London in 1983. I had no cd player at the time. I can assure you that what I heard when I got my first Dual Audio toaster like cd player has been totally eclipsed today with my present double DSD playback system. Getting the digital filters well beyond 50 kHz has revealed much of the music that they previously obscured. |
"I think there is a clear difference between the best digital sound and the best vinyl sound. The first is very musical and the second can be very real sounding, as though you are there at the recording."
Tbg,
I really like that. It is certainly worth pondering about. If you equate "musical" with what we might hear at a live concert, especially when the music starts to really draw you into it, I think I must fully agree with your statement.
Happy listening to both sources! |
Vinyl can be excellent, but it has its limitations, including dynamic range and frequency response. These are not limiters for digital. Digital of course has its issues, including jitter, format, sample-rate, digital filtering and I/V conversion. The fortunate thing is that these digital issues can be continuously improved, whereas we have hit the wall on the vinyl limitations. Vinyl is going nowhere and digital continues to improve.
There area few digital systems that now challenge vinyl and even reel-to-reel tape. There will be more in the future. This is only the beginning of better things to come.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
|
"This is only the beginning of better things to come."
Steve,
Last not least thanks to your work, I think you're definitely right on that one.
On the other hand I cannot quite agree with what you say about vinyl. New hardware, from AR to Lamm, just to mention some, show us, that there is more in those grooves than what we thought possible. |
15ips R2R is impossible to challenge even with vinyl. |
You will hear tape hiss or the effects of Dolby equalization even in a R2R. Not in digital.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I've heard much of the best digital (no need to mention names) but every time I listen to vinyl I hear the soul of the music, never with digital. |
Speaking of tape hiss how come one rarely hears it with CDs? I kind like at least to be able to hear it if it's there. I smell a rat. |
Transfers are done direct to digital now, so no analog tape is involved and older ones were done with Dolby equalization.
Rsf507 - have you heard Empirical Audio Overdrive DAC?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Even tape hiss is far more audible when you have all aspects of phase in order along with exceptional (I consider this 'just adaquate') isolation and ac power (conditioning) cleaning. Even Rye is better in a clean glass-i.e. no soap residue.(Think of appreciating hi-fi sound as like appreciating exceptional liquor-mix (dirt) don't add value. |
Ptss - I have some old R2R transfers to digital including Sinatra, Take 5, and Ella F. and these have tape hiss. On my system, the brain masks it out pretty fast because it is centered in the image and unmoving.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Very nice albums to have. Pretty hard to notice tape hiss with all that music going on. |
Digital is definitely there; and has been since at least 2005.
With supreme power conditioning-for the digital - clarity, dynamics, detail, delicacy and musicality are available from my rather modest (well, not particularly highly rated) Lexicon RT-20 through my reference Spectral & MIT gear. My reference for this is my Goldmund turntable. More info to follow. |
Digital compare to a good tape deck is akin to the steak in the movie The Fly that gets teleported from one pod to the other. When the steak is recovered from the second pod it's grilled up and tasted. But it tastes terrible, not like a steak, something happened on the way to the second pod. |
