What would you do?


So, I want to tweak the sound of my system (Hegel 160 integrated, Cambridge CXC transport, TAD tube DAC (pretty old), Joseph Audio RM25Mark2 XL). I want to increase soundstage and curb a slight tendency for high end harshness.  I know that soundstage is mainly in the mastering of a CD.  And I know that the room plays a big role but I can't make changes there. Just retired and "need" to give myself a present (up to about $3,000 new or used). Have been thinking about getting a new DAC ( Audio Mirror Tubador 111SE with Balanced output).  But wonder if the money would be better spent elsewhere. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
dharmaman
The most cost-effective way of getting exactly what you want- 3D stage, more liquid natural sound- is Schumann generators. There's a whole bunch of them on eBay and Amazon, they are all dirt cheap, and they all work. Even though they look like a joke, they really work. I started with one thinking it would never work but instead worked so good I now have 7, and another one coming. 

Or if you want to spend money then Synergistic Research makes a couple different versions, pretty much the same thing but of course better and way more expensive. About 10X, 20X. I doubt they are ten times as effective. But they look about a hundred times better, so totally worth it.  (Eyeroll.) 

Seriously, try Schumann generators.  

But even ten of those won't put a dent in your budget. So get Synergistic Research HFT. Get the full speaker kit, and room kits. You will not believe how these things make your speakers disappear! They completely preserve the sound of your system, just make everything incredibly more clear and dimensional. Exactly the sound stage increase you want. 

You will probably still have money left over. Do these things first. Then when you know I know what I am talking about PM and I will hook you up with the really good stuff.

 


Thanks for your feedback,  This is definitely not a direction I was thinking about. I love that! Would appreciate other's thoughts.

Treat the room acoustically.  Look at GIK (though they have a long backlog at the moment) and other companies.  There are plenty of threads on this.  Searching GIK will take you to most of them.
Dude he said he can't make changes there. Sheesh!  HFT are more effective anyway. 

  Been on this road a very long time. Been through tons of component upgrades. Tried lots of wire, all kinds of tweaks, you name it. Component upgrades are all good and fine. It's not like you are going to buy a better DAC, amp, speakers, or whatever, and not hear worthwhile improvement. That, if you do your research, is very likely.  

There is however a risk with components that few bother to seriously consider. A new component brings a whole new sound. This is fine if you know which piece you have now is the one that really needs to go, and how exactly the new one will be better, and it is all in line with what you want. Which almost never happens. But if it does then great, that is definitely the way to go. This is what I did recently with my speakers. Worked out beautifully.

But you didn't come here describing anything like that. What you asked for is a tweak. Specifically, a tweak that will improve the sound stage and make the top end less harsh. Well the tweaks above will do exactly that, and without altering in any fundamental way the character of the sound you have now. Low risk, in other words.

Sorry, but I am relentlessly logical about these things. You also mentioned giving yourself a present. If you do the stuff I mentioned the sound will be to die for. I mean seriously, you will be amazed, absolutely amazed, but none of it looks very much like a present.

For that may I recommend Townshend Podiums. These things are a lot more expensive, but they look great, and the sound you will get from your speakers will be even better. A tremendous amount of the subtle detail that we get our imaging cues from is incredibly fine speaker movement that is obscured by floor vibrations. Townshend Pods and Podiums isolate components from this and the improvement is impressive and easy to hear. Like a major speaker upgrade only without changing any of what you already like about the speakers you have. Also some of the harshness you are hearing is edge exaggerated by these same vibrations, which is why the sound on Podiums becomes more smooth, natural and non-fatiguing at the same time as it becomes a lot more detailed. If you go this route it will eat up a lot of your budget but still leave room for Schumann generators.  

So many great ways to get better sound! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 
I agree with you MillerCarbon.  I agree that buying a new component feels risky and may alter the sound I largely love from my  relatively simple system . I know others will say "you could just sell it' with respect to a new component.  And I know that some components can be heard on a trial basis.  I guess I am relatively risk adverse, maybe I am in the wrong hobby! 
I want to increase soundstage and curb a slight tendency for high end harshness.

Acoustic treatment of the room would specifically address both of those desiderata.

And I know that the room plays a big role but I can't make changes there.

What does this mean anyway?
I can't move the system into another room.
I can't knock down a wall.
I'm not permitted to pull the speakers 3' out into the room.
I'm not permitted to move the furniture around.
I'm not permitted to hang 4" deep panels in certain places on the walls.
I agree w/Jones. Get a Schitt Loki, a 4 band tone control which will help you tailor your sound issues. It has bands at 400 and 2000hz which might easily help correct your problem. You put it between your source and your integrated amp. It is relatively benign and has a pass-by switch. It's cheap (@$150) and easily obtainable. I use one in a dedicated headphone system and really appreciate it on a lot of my CD's. (I don't need it in my main system  but I tried it there an it works well). FWIW, if your integrated has a tape loop that is a perfect place for this unit. 

BTW, I assume you have tried already but if not - adjust your speaker's  toe in until the axis crosses well in front  of your listening chair. That works for many set ups. 
Thanks for all your suggestions. Newbee, I cannot, in fact,  re-arrange anything except I have always had  the speakers out from the wall.  The equalizer sound interesting. While it might take any harshness away, I guess (?) it would not do anything to the soundstage.  While I have tried angling the speakers toward the listening position, I find the soundstage better when there is no angle at all (apparently Jeff Joseph suggested this). But I can try again. Thanks again.
Maybe try the Black Ice Fos SS-X sound enhancer. See threads here on AG. 
I own the AM Tubadour and love it. Enhanced the sound stage in my system.
I was just about to suggest the SS-X, but @mesch beat me to it.  It gets my highest recommendation - I'll never have a stereo system without it.
Sound staging, especially 'depth  of image' is principally the product of the recording. If it is there, and in few it is, the rest of it is found in your speaker/room set up. You are not likely to be able to enhance sound staging to any meaningful degree by just getting better (or newer speakers) although you might get some with a better (for your situation) tonal balance. Conversely properly set up speakers of a modest design can produce a pretty good sound stage, at least a two dimensional one.  

 Regarding my recommended toe-in, the principal benefit of substantial to-in is the reduction of frequency bounce off nearby side walls which can create high frequency emphasis as well as broadband distortion at the listening position.

The only issue one must be aware of when doing this is the nature of the signal. Many speakers are hot 'on axis' and roll off off axis. In a 'straight ahead set up you would probably be listening about 20 - 25 degrees off axis, so if you toe in your speakers you want to avoid having them with having the axis pointed at your head, you must rotate them with the axis well in front of your head replicating the angle you would have were the speakers pointed straight ahead.  Looks funny but if you research this issue in depth you will find that many manufacturers/dealers use such a toe-in set up in demo rooms. Try it - with the axis of both speakers crossing well in front of your chair. 

TMI perhaps but I'm just trying to help you keep from going down a  bottomless hole.

Good luck


Thursday I will try the toe-in as suggested. I also am intrigued by the Black Ice sound enhancer. After a brief look at review it sounds very interesting. If i used this, where does it go in the circuit- after the DAC and before the Hegel? Thanks again for all your input.
I agree with you MillerCarbon. I agree that buying a new component feels risky and may alter the sound I largely love from my relatively simple system . I know others will say "you could just sell it' with respect to a new component. And I know that some components can be heard on a trial basis. I guess I am relatively risk adverse, maybe I am in the wrong hobby!
Component selection is a lot of time and trouble. Component upgrades are also expensive. My philosophy is you are almost always better getting the most out of what you already have than swapping out for "better". 

Bear in mind, none of these guys offering that sort of advice has ever tried any of the stuff I am talking about. But if you search around you will find those who have actually tried this stuff confirm what I am saying.  

So as far as risk-averse goes, you can find Schumann generators on eBay and Amazon. They are all the same circuit and it really doesn't matter which one and so what I did was search around for Make Offer and got mine for only $11 each. Can you risk $11? Just one will not be that big an improvement but you will hear it, and then you simply buy more. Just be sure to get ones with included USB cable. I assume you have a couple spare USB chargers laying around to plug them into. If not then add a few bucks for that.

Some say placement matters but not that I have noticed and so you can probably do fine with them laying around behind equipment racks where it won't matter how they look.  

They sell the same exact thing in a plastic case for hundreds. Synergistic puts it in a anodized aluminum case for thousands. You can buy 7 for $100!  

The more you get the better it sounds. With each one the top end becomes more and more fluid and natural, with less strain and glare. You will hear deeper and deeper into the acoustic space. People talk about the background getting blacker. They should try these so they know what they're talking about. This makes images seem so much more dimensional and lifelike. I've heard a whole lot of stuff and can say for sure you will not get this degree of improvement as these with any DAC or amp or anything else, not without spending multiples of your entire budget anyway. Maybe not even then.

People will argue with this. When they do, ask how many of these they heard? So how do they know? They do not. Biggest problem with this site, all these people blathering about that which they know not. If they would just come out and say, "Of course I never tried this so haven't a freaking clue, BUT" and then launch into it, they could be forgiven. But don't hold your breath.

The equalizer by the way, will do NOTHING for what you want. All EQ can do is turn down the level of the top end. This does nothing to the real problem, harshness. Might as well tell you to put cotton in your ears.

Seven or eight Schumann generators will have you swimming in a luxurious deep rich sound stage for under $100. A set of Townshend Pods under your DAC will open it up with more detail, dynamics, and truth of timbre than you could get from any $3k DAC sitting on its factory feet. Then trick your speakers out with the Synergistic Research HFT Speaker Kit and they will flat-out disappear. You can do all three for well under your budget. They will preserve all the character of what you have, and not change it, but only make it better. All of this for only about half your budget. Your jaw will drop!

Townshend Pods are sold based on component weight. Check with John Hannant he helped me out with mine. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa8492-townshend-audio-seismic-isolation-pods-set-of-4-sizes-a-b...

Synergistic guarantees the speaker kit, and you have my personal guarantee on the Schumann generators. Can't get more low-risk/high reward than that.

The sound enhancer would be placed between the DAC and Integrated amp. It is used for bass adjustment and soundstage expansion. It is not an equalizer as such. Like @smrex13, many on this forum have found it to do what you seem to be looking for. I have not tried one yet, however very much thinking of doing so.

I would continue to play with speaker placement and any room treatment you can prior to trying the enhancer.