Sorry for the dupe post; when the first one hadn't appeared after ~16 hrs I thought it had been lost.
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You also need to check out NOLA KO's which I believe list right at your $10k price. As much as I admire Vapor's philosophy and approach, unless your priority is the deepest bass the NOLA's beat any Vapor model IMO. Of course, like two others here, if I were you I'd grab the used AZ Crescendos offered for $7500 without a second thought. |
Ask anybody with a pair of Joules how they sound. He does in fact use a different crossover and tweeter in that application when he incorporates the transmission line cabinet. Other differences as well but I would leave the details up to Ryan to explain. He can also modify existing Cirrus or Breeze and keep the tweeter the same. He recently did this to a pair of Cirrus for a customer with great success. That's why I said "Breeze based Joules". I have discussed upgrading my Breeze like this with Ryan and really hope to do so in the future. |
"Or, you could have Ryan build a killer pair of Breeze based Joules in your budget and have it all right now. Lot's of options but the best way to proceed is to call Ryan, go over your budget, tastes and room and he will give you great choices. He is a detail freak and you will have a bespoke pair of uniquely custom speakers with end game sound." Is it really a good idea to change the parts used to make a speaker on a in a build to order basis? A good friend of mine is a speaker manufacturer and he'll ask me, every so often, to do some listening tests when designing a new speaker. There's a need to get feedback from all types of people with different preferences, not just his own. If, for example, I handed him a different tweeter and asked him to try it, he wouldn't just swap them out. There would be a process involved that would almost certainly alter the crossover and cabinet, so that the new tweeter would integrate properly with the rest of the speaker. From what I understand, that's pretty much how most designers would do it. How can Vapor get away with not doing that type of research? |
Jughead, I can tell you from experience that the Breeze are awesome. Mine have a ton of upgrades and flat out kick butt. I have a similar sized room and the Vapors really fill it with beautiful sound. Having said that, I too have heard the Auroras and they are big, bad and have a huge presence (in a good way). Sounded wonderful with anything and can really rock. If it was me, I might do one of two things. The first option would be to have a killer pair of Cirrus built with the larger Raal tweeter. These could truly be end game speakers and you would be very, very happy. BUT, if you ever wanted more down the road, you would have the option of upgrading them to Joules by adding the transmission line cabinets and having Ryan change crossovers etc. Nice option to have in your back pocket! Or, you could have Ryan build a killer pair of Breeze based Joules in your budget and have it all right now. Lot's of options but the best way to proceed is to call Ryan, go over your budget, tastes and room and he will give you great choices. He is a detail freak and you will have a bespoke pair of uniquely custom speakers with end game sound. |
There's a nice pair of Acoustic Zen Crescendos for sale here for $7500. I have no idea if these speakers meet your personal tastes, but that's a lot of quality full-range speaker for the $$$. And you'd still have $2500 left for a vacation. Sorry, but as good as the Breeze may be they sure don't sound like "end of game" speakers, but the Crescendos... Best of luck. |
Yeah I know you don't judge a speakers sound by a you tube video, but I would not judge a speakers sound at a dealer or a friends house. ill judge the sound in my room with my equipment. I think the breeze or stiff breeze would be an upgrade over the VA Mozart's, and dealing with custom speakers idk if you can return them if you don't like their sound. so maybe in this case it might be wise to go small then go bigger if I feel the need. |
"Some of my most rewarding moments listening to music at home, were decades ago, played through a pair of Magnepan MG1's powered by a Yamaha receiver. The enormous amount of joy I was able to derive from that rather humble system is unforgettable." I bet you couldn't sell them fast enough. lol. Sell your best components and buy ones you hate. Its the audiophile way. I remember selling my Unity Audio Sig 1's (best speaker I ever had up to that point.) and squeezing a pair of B&W 800's into my small NYC apartment. It was a bloodbath. Those things got me sitting or standing. From my listening chair, the tweeters hit my ears like ice pics. The pointy edges got me as I was walking to the bathroom in the dark. Broke a toe. Had to set them up backwards so they pointed in. Coolest looking speaker I ever had. |
As much as I like Vapor, I'd not judge any speaker by a YouTube video. And I think that putting so little of a 10k budget into speakers is a mistake. I'd put in the vicinity of $7-8,000 into speakers, or the whole $10k, with an eye towards upgrading other components gradually over time. And in the Vapor line, I'd at least go up to the Aurora. Breeze is nice, but Aurora is where you start getting much more of the magic. Breeze sounds like a monitor. Aurora does not. |
"usually don't go with bookshelf speakers but whenever I look at other speakers I go back to the breeze, just something about the look and design, the only way I heard them was on a youtube video, and they sounded good over my cheap lap top." Its definitely a fool proof plan. No doubt you'll be successful. |
yep that's why I think I'm going to go with vapor audio's breeze, its not expensive at all and I get the feeling along with the thunder of my sub it's the sound I'm looking for. usually don't go with bookshelf speakers but whenever I look at other speakers I go back to the breeze, just something about the look and design, the only way I heard them was on a youtube video, and they sounded good over my cheap lap top. |
"01-11-15: Jughead I'm thinking the same thing, buy some less expensive speakers and use the rest of the money for other parts of my system." I don't know if you'll get the results you want doing it that way. If you go after a pair of 5k speakers, 3k preamp, 2k amp,,,, or whatever, that's exactly what you are going to get. You end up with a collection of nice components. I would recommend that you focus on the main issue, and never loose site of it. And that is to put together an audio system that keeps you happy. But to do that, you really need to take a different approach. Start off by finding a sound you like. Once you have that, then you can set out to build a system that reproduces it. I understand it can be more work to do it that way, but keep this in mind; if you don't properly plan out your system beforehand, and shoot for a goal that you know is achievable because you heard it, you can't expect to get good sound. Setting price points for individual components can really hold you back. For example, if you have 5k to spend, its entirely possible that you may pick a $1000 pair of speakers with a $4000 integrated amp. You just never know. I have something like this in my own systems. In the main system, I have a $2000 pair of speakers, and in my 2nd system, the speakers cost $10000. I think the cheap speakers are far better. And that's just the way it goes in audio. There's so many variables. |
I'm thinking the same thing, buy some less expensive speakers and use the rest of the money for other parts of my system. and I can remember my first system was a little 60 watt 2 ch adcom amp with an adcom pre amp with a set of Boston acoustic hd9 speakers. and I got a lot of joy outta that system. I think it would be a lot more fun trying different speakers every few years, and get back to having fun with it instead of over thinking it. |
With respect, and I truly mean that, why not spend perhaps 5K and take an extended vacation with the rest of the money? Some of my most rewarding moments listening to music at home, were decades ago, played through a pair of Magnepan MG1's powered by a Yamaha receiver. The enormous amount of joy I was able to derive from that rather humble system is unforgettable. Of course, I was much younger, so "endgame" was not a concept I could begin to comprehend. |
I know if you don't have them made custom you have a 60 day in home trial, which is always the ideal way to audition a speaker, so if I do like them I could always send them back to get more bells and whistles added. after talking with Pete at vapor audio he seems to think that the breeze would be an upgrade from my VA Mozarts, and at 2k with in home trial whats to lose? but like I said idk about bookshelf speakers? or maybe they might be perfect because I have the psa xs15se sub that hits the lows with authority! |
I have heard these speakers at a couple of oweners' homes, including Ryan at Vapor. They are made to order, so your best best is to maybe find someone near you who has one (if there is one) who will let you take a listen. Or hit an audio show. Hittinng something like AXPONA or RMAF may be a good use of your money too, so you can actually hear many of these suggestions. Conditions aren't always ideal, but you can get an idea of the flavor. |
I can only speak for myself. My OHM F5s are it for me save perhaps OHM F5015s if I want to go nuts someday. I would be tempted by MBL if could be had for that price but would probably have a ripple effect and make me spend a lot more time and money getting it right again. If I could find the right Dynaudios for my current larger room I might be tempted. |
"If you hear less than that at the demo, it's the setup and not the speakers. Setup is not that complicated, but it does take some diligence. Simliarly, amplification doesn't have to be expensive or exotic, but it has to be a good fit. Those 150 wpc NADs will do just fine. Me? I'm using an all-tube front end driving a 30-yr-old Perreaux PMF-150 (100wpc) power amp to great effect." There was no store demo to speak of. I had them in my house for a little over a year. I opted to buy them because I didn't think a store would be able to set them up right, and I have more than enough equipment to try them with. They weren't bad, I just thought they were way over rated. The speakers weaknesses became much more apparent when I put them directly next to other speakers in the same room. I think a lot of people base their opinions on old reviews. I could see them being much more competitive back in the 70's and 80's, but traditional speakers and electronics have been able to overcome many obstacles in recent years to the point where its not mandatory to use such a design to get the same qualities that only a planar speaker could provide. |
The Maggies are somewhat demanding for room placement and proper amplification. When I demo'd them, the rep used a measuring tape to place them properly. The amplification was good, but not exotic or pricey--an NAD C375BEE 150 wpc integrated amp. They beat all comers at $2K. i got a pair home and used a tape measure for setup and got similar results. If you hear less than that at the demo, it's the setup and not the speakers. Setup is not that complicated, but it does take some diligence. Simliarly, amplification doesn't have to be expensive or exotic, but it has to be a good fit. Those 150 wpc NADs will do just fine. Me? I'm using an all-tube front end driving a 30-yr-old Perreaux PMF-150 (100wpc) power amp to great effect. |
"I got a pair of Mag 1.7s a year ago and at my budget, that's as good as it's going to get for me." I would say that the Magnepan is a must audition. I tried a pair of 1.7's myself and thought they were just OK. I was kind of surprised because I thought I would like them very much. Still, I think they are definitely worth an audition, given how many people really like them. |
At new, full retail with warranties, $9700 buys you a pair of Magneplanar 3.7i's and a pair of JL E112 powered subwoofers. The new x.7i line of Magnepans are bargain-basement speakers for life. Add the powered subs to get all the extension and slam at the bottom end. They blend well with Maggies. As long as you can place the Maggies 4-5 feet out into the room, you're golden. I got a pair of Mag 1.7s a year ago and at my budget, that's as good as it's going to get for me. I have a pair of small fast subs with them and a year later still have no urge to upgrade. Edited to add: My maggies replaced a pair of more expensive dynamic speakers engineered to quell enclosure resonances--there were no parallel surfaces and the sidewalls were a continuous curve with a constantly varying radius. When I put the Maggies in place, it was a revelation at how noisy the dynamic speakers were by comparison. With the Maggies, all you hear is the transducers with no boxy coloration or resonances. Dynamic speakers that get to this level of clarity generally have very elaborate and expensive enclosures--speakers such as Wilson, Focal, Magico, YG, and premium Sonus Faber. This is particularly an area where Magnepans exceed their dynamic competitors at the same price points. For dynamic speakers at your price point, based on what I heard from the discontinued Sonus Faber Cremona M's, I'd seriously consider the Sonus Faber Olympica II. |
Hi Jughead, the current model of the Baby Grands is called Baby Grand Symphony AEdition... Make sure that if you get a new pair, the vendor does not give you the previous model instead. Inevitably, a new pair of Beethoven Baby Grands will need to be broken in... They might sound a little boxy and occasionally peaky in the beginning. Breaking might extend to about 1,000 hours. To spead up things, Whenever you are not listening to music, you can feed them white noise from an FM tuner.... Tune the device between station and let interstation hash reach the speakers at low to moderate volume. G. |
I do have a line on some Baby Beethoven's at local stereo store and they will buy my Mozarts from me, and they do offer an upgrade policy. If I keep speakers looking and functioning new with all packing they will give me full value on speaker to upgrade. this might be the route to go, I can trade speakers every 7 or 8 months and learn what I like and don't like about the different va's. |
Jughead, Mahlers are out of production, hence you will not find a new pair. With a little bit of patience you will eventually find a set on Audiogon or other source. The current Vienna speaker in the same price range as Mahler is the Listz, also to be featured at CES: System One: [Venetian Towers] Suite 30-129 Vienna Acoustics Imperial Series Liszt, $15,000.00/pr They use technology trickled down from the current VA flagship, called DIe Muzik. Here is the Lizt Imperial page: http://www.vanaltd.com/imperial-series.html and http://www.vanaltd.com/assets/liszt-data-sheet.pdf And here is my mostly technical discussion of my own pair of DIe Muzik: http://positive-feedback.com/Issue59/vienna.htm Regards, G. |
Hi Jughead, the Beethovens you are considering are not likely to be the latest design. The latest Beethovens will be featured for the very first time at CES 2015 in Vegas. Here is a line item from a professional reviewers newsletter I just received this morning from VANA Ltd, Vienna Acoustic importer in North America: ... System Two: [Venetian Towers] Suite 30-130 Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Symphony Edition, $8,500.00/pr (World premier) ... For more info, you may want to give a buzz to VANA Ltd: http;://www.vanaltd.com Phone: (425) 610-4532 (425) 610-4532 Regards, Guido |
JugHead, I have heard Beethoven Grand and Mahler in the same system, being driven by a Rowland 500W M312 stereo at RMAF several years ago.... I did fall instantly in love with the Mahlers and eventually bought a pair... There was a night and day difference with Beethoven Grands... I found the latter to be fine speakers, but sounded "matter of fact" and far from the enchanting Mahlers. Since then, Beethoven Grands have been significantly updated... You might want to ask the seller when the pair in consideration was manufactured. G. |