What's the greatest bargain in SET these days?

Saw a girl last week with a great SET.

Mikirob ;
You stated " I'm going to sell my Cary V12, Cary SL98, perhaps Primaluna Dialogue One " . Does the hesitance on the Primaluna speak to its close equality to the Dynamo ? I ask because I have a Prologue II with rolled tubes including EL-34's .

Just curious

Mikirob,
It obvious to me you have very good ears and you trust them (you know what you like). You'll end up with speakers that suit your taste and system well.
Charles,

My Niece and her boyfriend just completed walking a good portion of the Appalachian trail. They're hear for dinner tonight. Some years back one of my brother-in-laws walked the whole thing. My wife and I have walked various parts. Always exhilarating!

Yes, I too see good times ahead. I will certainly discuss speaker and source with you and Charles as we go along.

Mikirob, The last time my wife and I moved was in 2002. Our current house was only a mile from the previous one, and it took the old house about 4 months to sell after we closed on our current one. The actual moving process was about as relaxed as it could possibly have been, yet my wife swore she would never move again.

This time is complicated by the fact we are moving 400 miles. But I think you hit on the key. You have to keep in mind the end result, not the day to day and moment to moment grind, stress, annoyance, etc. Your new music room and equipment will make all the pain worthwhile. In my case, I have the rig of my dreams and a beautiful new house within spitting distance of the Smokies.

I see some mighty fine times ahead for both of us. I will be especially interested to see where your search for speakers and source leads.

Charles, Brownsfan,

Late spring is when the new house is scheduled for completion. Seriously causes all the anxious moments described by you, Brownsfan, in your house search and impending move, but it is calming thinking that I will have the music room I always wanted; and I now know for certain after reading your comments on Franks, (listening for myself to the Coincident Dynamo SE) that the Franks/CSL combo is the type sound system I also always wanted. The speaker, ancillary hunt should be fun, but the best part will be "listening to the music."

Yes, I think Mikirob will definitely appreciate the CSL and Frankenstein when the time is right for him. Fortunately he isn't suffering with the Dynamo at the present. Hmiguel (owner and designer of Tripoint Audio) is very pleased with his recently purchased CSL. Miguel is all about realism and musical honesty. His products reside in the highest tier in my opinion. I believed Coincident would mate well with his system and his reaction confirms this.  
Charles,

Mikirob and Charles, For two decades I stuck with the Magnepan/SS amp route. This worked well for me because of my preference for large scale orchestral works, because of my insistence on true timbre, and because Magnepan offers so much speaker for the money. In my opinion, Magnepans remain best suited for this type of music.
As I began to become more and more focused on chamber music, the inability of Magnepans to portray quartets and trios with a reasonable image scale as well as the difficulty in instrument localization due to violins crossing over from the midrange to the tweeter became increasingly frustrating. A couple of years ago I started a thread asking for advice on assembling a second system specifically optimized for chamber music. I got a lot of good suggestions, but that project was put on hold due to my retirement and the impending move. During that period, I picked up a Coincident Statement Line stage and was of course profoundly impressed with it, and also during that period, my plans for a second system morphed into plans for a bedroom system. I began to pick up used speakers and amps that I thought might work well for me. Then one day, a used pair of Coincident Triumph Extreme Mk IIs came up for sale. I snatched them up and went to Tennessee on a house hunting trip. When I returned, the speakers were delivered the next day. I set them up in my main rig and gave a listen. I was floored with what I heard. I had never, ever, heard that level of coherence, timbral accuracy, detail, speed and sheer musicality from a box speaker under 20K. (Talk about a great bargain, I paid 2.5K for these with stands new. The value proposition is at least equal to the dynamo.) These small monitors pushed the Magnepan 3.7Rs to the side of the room, never to return to use for more than a few minutes. With the Triumph Extremes (at 94 dB efficient) in place in my main rig, the big SS mono blocks were no longer needed. The decision to bring in the Franks was an easy one.

What Mikirob has found to be true of the dynamo, Charles and I know to be generally true of the Coincident line. It brings music of every genre to life. In my case, the sheer beauty of good music through this system has facilitated an expansion into previously unexplored genres. I've dipped for the first time into Italian opera, brought in a few bluegrass disks, and will likely begin an exploration of jazz and renaissance music.

Large scale orchestral works remain the supreme challenge for any system, and no, I can't close my eyes and think I'm sitting main floor center row J Severence Hall during a Mahler 3 performance. But, I hear the music performed in a way that is enormously satisfying.

I will be keeping my eyes open for a used pair of Coincident Super Victory II speakers, which should give me enough low end to get the subs out of the main rig. If that never happens, I will be perfectly happy with what I now have.

What I see is that a pair of golden ears has met up with a brilliant scientific mind. Beneath this, as a foundation, lies a commitment to delivering products at real world prices. Mikirob, it's going to be a lot of fun reading your comments about the CSL and Franks.

Charles,
Thanks, I'll pick it up, always liked Kenny Burrell. Chambers was a fixture in the 50s and 60s on double bass, really an influential figure as well as an inspiration to aspiring bass players.

Mikirob,
Thanks for your reply. You might like this CD by the Acoustic bass legend himself Paul Chambers, "Bass On Top". He led this quartet that features guitarist Kenny Burrell. There's a lot of plucked and con arco playing at a masterful level. This is a 1958 stereo recording on Blue Note.
Charles,

I really enjoy bassist like Renaud Garcia-Fon playing oriental music con arco on 5 string bass. I played an Ampeg fret less all those years ago and did a fair amount of bowing.

No, I never thought it more difficult. I used to play with a number of Berklee College of Music people in Boston (ages ago). As you know as a trumpet player yourself (my first instrument), practice, practice, practice, good teachers, it all becomes second nature. As I stated elsewhere here, I come from a family of musicians. I haven't played formally since the 70s. Took a different career path.

Hi Mikirob,
You're a bass player and I have a comment for you. Last night I attended a jazz performance and the bass player made ample use of his bow on the ballads. This con arco playing just captivates me with its beauty, I could have just melted away, man, did he sound good!
Is con arco playing more difficult than plucking the strings as is more common in nazz music? I love both but that bow moving across those strings is just delicious.
Thanks,
Charles,

Mikirob,
Agree with the welcome mat being out for all music genres. The Frankenstein and honestly any good quality SET plays it all, and the lesser SETs will falter. This is true for all topologies, certainly not every solid state amplifier is universally accomplished reproducing all music genres successfully. Complex or dense music isn't an obstacle for the Frankenstein. Bill who listens to more of this type of music than I do would I'm sure concur. Just match this group of low power amplifiers with a suitable speaker and you're all set. Mikirob has confirmed that with his very joyful reporting here of his listening sessions. These amplifiers bring the music alive.
Charles,

Charles, yes, I know, so true. The Cary V12 is a nice amp, as is the Primaluna Dialogue One. Yet there is just something very special about Mr. Blume's design and implementation that has grabbed me. It doesn't matter what genre of music you throw at the Dynamo, it plays it with aplomb. For days now I have given it large complex classical, smaller less complex classical, chamber, chants, ancient music, modern music, all types on Rock, Jazz, small combo' stuff, big band, female vocal, male vocal, electronic and accoustic, live...it does it all...a SET that can rock! Or, can sort out big orchestral pieces without breaking a sweat. Can't wait to hear the Franks.

Mikirob,
The better the audio components, the more you emphasize music listening vs check Iist of sonic boxes to mark. Yes you do notice them but they are overshadowed by the music involvement factor. The Armstrong-Ellington recording hasn't changed, your better amplifier is just able to convey more of the musical signal intact. Your excellent results aren't a surprise.
Charles,

Oh yeah! Dukes Place is the Place to be, I am at Duke's Place...

I really love this Dynamo amp. The RFT Siemens EL34s from Brent Jesse are breaking in as I am writing this piece. Playing is Louis Armstrong/Duke Ellington, "The Great Summit/The Master Takes". The stage is ginormous as in really big, wall-to-wall, 14 feet across plus another 4 feet of small hall entry/exit. I'm not getting any work done. Truly great height, width, depth. The RFT's are a bit richer, bass more powerful, than the Shuguang that came stock with the amp, which has a little more air and space; but remember, the RFT Siemens is breaking in, only about 10 hours on them. In either case the tone, saturated colors are wonderful, so natural, organic, as the music flows forth. Piano is exceptional. Great timing, pitch, PRaT, it has it. Louis is right there big as life. As a bass player myself, I'm loving the Bass, tapping my toes, no one note, hard or hollow bass. It recreates the tuning/tone of the player. Great Gatsby, this is sweet, so live, and dynamic.

Mapman, my brother has a Sophia Baby among Leben and Harbeth. If you want to compare the Dynamo you’re going to have to move up to the Sophia 91-03. I know it sounds crazy, but that is what I hear. In fact, I'm going to sell my Cary V12, Cary SL98, perhaps Primaluna Dialogue One, push my chips to the center of the table, pick-up another Dynamo, as well as the Coincident Franks/101 tube pre and be done with it.

This little guy costs 1,300. No preamp necessary. It is the greatest bargain in audio to these ears. I don't make this type of statement easily, if ever.

My brother and I are putting together another shoot-out fest with some mutual audiophile buddies. Hopefully soon after Halloween. I'll report on the Sophia, but I already know it's an also ran.

How about the Baby Sophia? I like that its made in Virgina, not far from me.

Forgot to mention I didn't use any kits on my project. Most of parts found from junked units such as transformers, chassis, volume knobs, resistors, pots and caps.

Hi Charles1dad,

I know Decware states basically the same thing as Coincident as far as not skimping on transformers. Steve has stated that he's tested many different transformers in his amps and is pretty happy with the ones he's making now. Decware keeps their costs low with simple chassis designs/aesthetics which can be a major part of a final unit's cost.

Both Decware and Coincident make EL 34 triodes. I've been wanting to try one and figured I'd go with the Dynamo just to get an idea of Israel's sound since I already have a couple of Decware amps.

Hi Seikosha,
The limiting factors are the quality of your transformers and the stiffness of the power supply section. This is where budget amplifiers often cut corners. These two areas are crucial according to makers of high quality SETs (make or break).Issrael deliberately put much of the Dynamo's part cost towards the transformers. Based on the comments on this thread, it was a wise decision. The cheaper kits can't provide this type of iron at their very low price point. Audio Note kits offer top level transformers (optional upgrades) and their price reflects that point.

Mapman,
20 years ago I'd use something similar like http://diyaudioprojects.com/Schematics/300B-SE-Tube-Amp-Schematic.htm.
Having the fact I was poor and did NOT have funds to purchase 300B, I used 6L6 as triode instead.
I was able to get 6...7wpc. Obviously didn't have funds to make monoblocks so I did trivial 2ch amp with passive volume control first, than found more funds to build 12AT7 based volume control for 2 channels(duo-triode) similar to guitar amp approach http://chasingtone.com/yourguitaramp/your-basic-dual-triode-tube/

Looking at the parts list, the stock SE84 is definitely using higher grade parts than the kit. It certainly would sound nicer than the kit version.

I've got the SE84 stock non kit amp which is similar to what Mapman linked to. The stock amp is probably better sounding than the kit in that it's direct wired with no circuit boards. I'm toying with the idea of picking up a Dynamo. If I do, it'll be fun to compare it to the Decware. I'd be curious to see how they stack up against each other. If the Dynamo is better, I'd be thrilled as I've got a really nice combo going right now with my SE84 and Omega Speakers.

I don't think it'd be possible to build a Dynamo for 120.00. Won't the tubes alone push you right to that price point?

I see This One comes in at just over $200 for parts. I'd be interested to know if anyone has built it and compared.

If someone can build an amplifier comparable to the Dynamo for 120.00 in parts and 3 hours of labor, by all means do it. I'm very skeptical,talk is cheap. If that 120.00 USD gets you the same quality transformers(power and output),tube sockets, capacitors,chassis, wire quality etc, then do it. Construct this DIY amp and then do direct comparision with the Dynamo and listen. I think the result would "struggle" to equal the Dennis Had amps discussed earlier in this thread and that is being polite. Some folks are experienced/talented enough to make impressive DIY projects, but easier said then done. I'd like to hear the 120.00 USD amp built in 3 hours and judge it's sound quality. Any takers?
Charles,

Mik, good answer!

I would have high hopes for the stock tube by design but rolling is always a nice option to have. Often it just comes down to personal preferences with tube rolling I have found to-date.

Mapman,

I'm not a professional reviewer, but as the great film director, William Wyler once said when asked, ”what he wanted,” from a particular actor after about 40 takes, he said, "I'll know it when I see it.” I think this is the correct response to your question, only change it to "you'll know the difference when you hear it for yourself.”

By the way, my unit was bought used and did not come with the stock rectifier tube. It arced over and the original owner replaced it with Kevin Deal recommended NOS Phillips ST bottle 5R4GYS. Nice tube but not recommended for this unit by Israel Blume. With this rectifier in the amp it sounded brighter, my wife did not like the tone of the bass, the sound was less warm, lean and thinner. Nor did she or I like the Gold Lion KT77s that the previous owner had installed paired with the Phillips rectifier and stock 6SL7s. I will revisit the GL KT77s with the Mullard rectifier as well as the Sylvania military 6SL7. Should be fun and interesting. First I'm going to test out the RFT Siemens and Black Treasures, then the SED Winged C at a later date.

Czar,

Not a bad idea. I've seen some SET amp kits advertised. Haven't tried anything like that since building electronic kits as a kid, but if I could do it back then I probably could now.

Did you have any particular kit/design in mind?

DIY $75...120 in parts + 2..3hours of labor to assemble

Mik,

That helps thanks.

Can you describe the specific timbre differences you hear with stock versus alternate rectifier tube?

Thanks.

Ok, I did not explain that too well. Let me try again: in music, the timbre also known as tone color or tone quality is the quality of a musical note or sound or tone that distinguishes different types of sound production, such as voices and musical instruments, string instruments, wind instruments, and percussion instruments. The physical characteristics of sound that determine the perception of timbre include spectrum and envelope.

In simple terms, timbre is what makes a particular musical sound different from another, even when they have the same pitch and loudness. For instance, it is the difference between a guitar and a piano playing the same note at the same loudness. Experienced musicians are able to distinguish between different instruments based on their varied timbres, even if those instruments are playing notes at the same pitch and loudness. (This with a little help from the Wikipedia).

The little Dynamo does all this and more in spades.

Mapman,
Warmer, smoother, tone of instruments accurate, well saturated color, and so forth...

I'm very much in to TONE. The tone of an audio amp for me is extremely important. Therefor, the right rectifier makes a world of difference in the total sound.

Thanks for that but I am wondering what the specific noticeable effect to the sound is for this amp specifically by changing the rectifier tube as suggested.

A summary From Pro Guitar: What is a Rectifier?

What does a rectifier do? If you don’t know, don’t feel bad, you’re about to find out. A rectifier changes alternating current (AC), like a wall outlet, to direct current (DC) that is required to run all electronics inside your amplifier. That’s it, it’s really that simple. The AC voltage comes from the wall into the transformer of your amp where it is then run through the rectifier to get DC voltage. This is before all audio circuitry so an important thing to realize is that NO AUDIO SIGNAL PASSES THROUGH THE RECTIFIER. It is purely for voltage conversion. So how does it affect the tone if no audio passes through it?

Rectifier Types:

So now we know what the rectifier does. In audio, guitar and bass tube amplifiers, there are two different types of rectifiers you will see, solid state and tube. There are several commonly used tube rectifiers in amps, 5U4, 5AR4 (GZ34), 5Y3, and 6CA4 (EZ81). Each has different voltage handling and characteristics for different output levels and circuits but each accomplishes the same task in the circuit. That’s it, no magic, no mystery, purely a power issue.

A solid state rectifier is made up of two to four diodes in a circuit (generally, there are single diode rectifiers but they are somewhat uncommon in guitar amps) or an IC that is made up of diodes. The solid state rectifier, while being diodes and not tubes, accomplishes the same task as a tube rectifier, it is simply there to convert AC voltage to DC voltage.

Tone:

So if a rectifier does not pass audio, how can it affect the tone of an amplifier? Well, the rectifier is the first post-transformer link in the power supply and changing the power supply voltage will cause different tonal characteristics. Tube rectifiers have an internal resistance so the more current that is pulled through a tube rectifier, the more the voltage drops which in turn causes the output power of the amp to drop. This drop affects the rise time of the tube (the time taken to produce the proper voltage output) and as the note decays the voltage builds causing a compression like effect. This is commonly referred to as “sag”. Since low frequencies require more current to reproduce, this sag causes a tube rectified amp to have a spongier low end and distort easier. This natural compression and sustain is sought after by many guitarists of certain genres (blues, classic rock, country) but not for everyone. Many players feel that a tube rectified amp responds better to touch dynamics and sound warmer than the solid state counter-parts. Different types of rectifier tubes will have different tonal characteristics in the same circuit as well but, as with all tube substitutions, BE CAREFUL. Not all rectifier tubes are interchangeable so consult a qualified technician before substituting.

Rebbi,
By this point there's been very good actual owner feedback and a "rave" 6 Moons review, pretty encouraging if you ask me.
1) Built by an established company.
2)The owener /builder has a reputation for developing excellent sounding components across the board.
3)1,300.00 USD brand new with a warranty.
4)very simple circuit, stereo chassis with only 6 tubes total!
5) Uses inexpensive tubes that are easily available.(very flexible tube rolling potential)
6)Uses good transformers(not a given in this price range).
7)Stout power supply (again not a given in this price range).
8) This amplifier has been reported as excellent with your specific speaker.
Just some food for thought.
Regards,
Charles,

What is it exactly that changing the rectifier tube improves?

Thanks.

Rebbi,
I totally agree with Brownsfan. I've got some good listening hours on the Dynamo now and I am truly blown away by how good it sounds, even with the stock tubes. The rectifier likely must be replaced; but you don't have to spend a lot of money to do that. Get a NOS Mullard 5AR4, if possible, but there are many rectifier tubes in the $40-60 range that will sound great. The Shuguang EL34s and 6SL7s that come stock with the Dynamo sound fine, but can be greatly improved upon. Tomorrow I have a pair of RFT Siemens EL34s coming, can't wait to hear them. I also have 6CA7 Black Treasure on the way, I haven't yet pulled the trigger on the SED Winged C. I was fortunate that I had a beautiful matched pair of 6SL7WGT-VT229 military in my tube stash. Between it and the NOS Mullard rectifier I purchased from Brent a Jesse it really upped the Dynamo's performance, even with the stock Shuguang EL34s. I love this amp so much I'm thinking of selling one of my other amps and purchasing another Dynamo; it will appreciate all the good ancillaries you can throw at it. You asked the question: What is the best SET bargain in all of audio? This is it!

Rebbi, Ignoring the huge difference in power, on the basis of sound quality alone, to my ears the dynamo was easily on a par with my Cary 500.1 MB amps which retail for about 9K. I do perceive a classic tube amp sound. There is midrange magic with the dynamo. Wonderful sophistication in the upper harmonics. In a double blind test, you would pick it out as a tube amp quickly.

The rectifier tube that came stock with my dynamo was junk. It began to arc with just a few hours. I had a spare NOS Mullard Blackburn GZ34 that I put in which is a great tube with this amp.

I really love this little amp. On the basis of sound quality alone, this is probably second only to my Coincident Frankensteins of all the amps I have ever owned. It is good with the stock tubes, but as Mikirob has pointed out, you are going to want to start tube rolling when you see what it is capable of.

Mine is still sitting idle until I get phase one of the move complete. I am doing all my listening with the Franks right now, but I am eager to get my dynamo up and running again.

That Coincident Dynamo is looking more and more interesting to me!

How does it sound with the tubes that ship with it?

None. The Dynamo does not need a preamp. I'm only using a CD transport and a MiniMax DAC. You can use it with a preamp if you want too. See Tim Smith's 6 Moons review, he did use a preamp during a small portion of his time with the Dynamo. It's really not necessary unless you need additional inputs. The Dynamo only has one.

Mikirob ;
I must've missed it , what preamp are you using with the Dynamo .

Thanks

Bill,
For additional perspective read Hmiguel's system page(Tripoint Audio owner and builder) for comments regarding his new( 2 days ago) CLS. Keep in mind he is using his ultra level Tripoint products and has the esteemed Robert Koda preamp in his fabulous system. We aren't alone in our opinions.
Charles,

Hello Bill,
Good post and interesting points regarding value. From time to time I've wondered in admiration how Israel is able to offer such excellent sounding components for such reasonable cost. I have owned a Symphonic Line amplifier and a custom 100 watt push pull 6550/KT 88 amplifier. Both were very good, the Frankenstein is a better sounding and much more rewarding amplifier without question. Having lived with all three of these amps, the Frankenstein is in a different league in terms of natural character, emotional involvement and realism. Bill I completely relate to your personal amplifier journey and outcome based on your Frankenstein experience.
Charles,

" However, one could make a case that a great value is that piece of equipment that delivers the level of performance one seeks, regardless of relative price."

No doubt that's pretty much it.

I think there are differences in how to go about it though. You can start small and then improve by increments until you hit your target. That's how I tend to work.

Or you can start with a big investment with the cost perceived as the insurance policy and go from there as needed. But in this case you will never know what might have been achievable for less. Ones bank account balance ( or perhaps even credit rating though personally I would not borrow money for any luxury item like this) is likely a good determining factor for where one will start.

But to truly find the best value, you have to stat small and make moves only when needed to hit your target.

Of course you also have to know what the target is. To do that, I listen to as much live music as possible and also the best "reference" systems that I am able to. Then at least I know what is or is not possible as well as what sound I like best.

It is not likely that the ultra expensive gear can ever be considered "the greatest bargain" in a field where diminishing returns so clearly applies. However, one could make a case that a great value is that piece of equipment that delivers the level of performance one seeks, regardless of relative price. What I mean is that pinching pennies to buy something that does not fully satisfy is never a bargain. It is by definition a waste of money.

Since 1990, I have owned a total of nine different amplifiers. The coincident franks are head and shoulders above them all, including amps that cost more. I wouldn't consider replacing them with anything, unless Coincident releases a Mk III model. For me, the value proposition is extremely high. I suppose if one demands top tier performance, and ones price range is 5-20K, then one could certainly consider the Franks a bargain.

In my estimation, the dynamo, at 1.3K is a great bargain with an insanely good value proposition. On sonics alone, it easily matched my 9K retail Cary 500.1 MB amps. It is fortunate that I bought the Franks before the dynamo, otherwise, I might have foolishly denied myself the opportunity to enjoy what top tier performance delivers. My frugal Scottish blood curdles every time I spend big bucks on audio gear.

I would love for someone who knows what they are doing to dissect the Franks and render a judgment on how much of the value proposition is based on physics and how much is based on business. With the Franks, are we seeing a brilliant design delivering better performance with lower cost, or are we seeing Coincident's business model permitting a focus on design as opposed to marketing? My guess is that the extraordinary value in the Coincident line depends on both physics and business. Whatever the answer is, it is clear Mr. Blume is doing something right.

That one should be so good you don't even know its there to a bargain at that price.

No doubt it must be good and built well, but so would the $1200 Coincident amp it seems.

I've heard much more expensive Audio note SET amps on large very high efficiency horns. The sound was outstanding. But I find I can do as well in most rooms for a lot less. i can also understand how some might only be satisfied with teh biggest and best available at any price, but unfortunately my budget is not likely to enable that in my case.

The Tron Atlantic lists for 6750 british pounds, this=10850.00 USD. I imagine this is a fine 300b SET, it uses C core transformers (Israel insists on these in the Frankenstein and CSL). I'd like to hear this amplifier one day.
Charles,