What's the greatest bargain in SET these days?
No doubt that things need not be perfect from a technical perspective in order for good music to be made. Happens all the time. Most everything has some limitations. The key is to understand what they are and how they may or may not be relevant case by case. The Coincident is a very nice product. SO is the Glow. Newer Glows advertise two inputs compared to one in older models which might be of value in this case plus they come in still for several hundred dollars less, not a trivial amount if product is suitable. I do not recall what speakers I heard it with but they were smaller monitor types and sound was top notch. I've heard other similar wattage amps drive Nola BOxer monitors similarly well also. I've also heard similar amp drive Zu Essence, which are larger and more efficient and still thought the amp was underpowered for rock music even based on what I heard. Jazz and acoustic music in general sounded great. The Zu guy there even admitted the SET was probably not optimal for all kinds of music. I had to ask for him to play some Rush as a test. I think the vendors like to play to audiophile desires for more exotic gear, like SETs, sometimes, knowing that like most things there will be limitations. |
Tubegroover, Your comment about the Lamm/Coincident Frankenstein owner is interesting. I know the Lamm can drive speakers that the Frankenstein would find difficult to handle. If the speaker is an appropriate match the Frankenstein can hold its own on purely music making/emotional engagement grounds.Is that Lamm owner actually going to return to the Frankenstein? Charles, |
I think the fact that we're discussing the exceptional ability of a 1300.00 amplifier can't be overlooked. Some would consider this a "bargain" priced for a power cord, pair of interconnectd or vibration control stand/footers. We are talking about a amplifier that has demonstrated the ability to reproduce music at a very high level, that is significant.No it can't drive every speaker load and it does possess some limitations, so what! You can spent much more for an amplifier and find it amusical and uninvolving and you end up listening to less music. Based on comments and reviews posted here the Dynamo inspires "more" listening and enjoyment, isn't this a good thing? The ability for a component to provide good natural sound isn't a given despite what it may cost. There are more than a few higher power/higher cost amplifiers that sound like crap and lack a musical soul(I've heard my share). If your objective is to really enjoy the sheer pleasure of music in your home, this is one fine affordable place to begin. Will it drive a Maggie, Wilson or a Magico? No it will not. Are there speakers available that it can drive successfully? Yes. Find those suitable speakers, sit back and enjoy some wonderful sound while listening to your music. 1300.00 for a music making amp, seems like a great option to me. Charles, |
The 5-7 watt SET amps that I have heard do surprising well with even moderately efficient speakers in many cases with many kinds of music. They have their unique charms within their limitations. It takes very large very efficient speakers to get around the limitations completely based on what I have heard which to date supports my general understanding of the physics involved in driving speakers optimally. I have only heard one SOTA such full range system where dynamic headroom seemed unconstrained, a very large multi unit custom GOTO horn system, similar to Avantgarde with separate bass modules in appearance/design, run off a pricey Audio Note SET amp. I'm sure there are others but the key is to havbe very large very good, very high efficiency speakers designed specifically with SET type amps in mind. But on a smaller scale, I have heard various very nice sounding SET based systems with smaller speakers, but each of course has its technical limitations that may or may not matter depending. THis stuff is as much about personal preferences as anything, though for me. With SET amps and many smaller speakers, they still can as long as higher volumes, low end extension and optimal dynamics are not key ingredients in the preferred recipe. |
Great comments everyone, this has been a enjoyable thread. Brownsfan, I especially like your cautions. You're completely right that no one (at this point) is going to get a world class amp for 1.3K; but as Tim Smith also correctly pointed out you can get awfully close. For 1.3K that is an incredible bargain to even approach world-class. Plus, no preamp necessary. This amp does so much right. Like you and Tubegroover, I also like the fact that some tube manufactures are finally making much better tubes. I would also like to caution that a product like the Dynamo, for it to work best needs efficient speakers with high impedance, say true 93-94db or higher, minimal 8ohm impedance. Soon, I'm going to hook up the Dynamo to my 6ohm 96db efficient Infinity Prelude Compositions that hit 25hz in the bass due to its built in 300watt mash amp driving its 12 inch woofers. Still shaking my head how Harman Kardan screwed up future iterations of this good speaker. Almarg, what can I say that hasn't already been said, your contribution to the A'gon can't be overstated, always an honest, helpful poster. I really want to pick your mind on the Daedalus speakers down the line. |
I'm sure it is Brownsfan. As a matter of interest Charles and Brownsfan this past Saturday I attended an audio meeting where one of the members told me of another fellow audiophile that purchased a pair of Lamm ML 2.2 SETs to replace his Franks. He is now considering selling the Lamm as he can't justify the price/performance difference. Now that is saying something. The Lamm amplifiers at 37k and the Franks at 5.9K. I would really love to hear the Franks but the praise on the value/performance of Coincident products seems universal. The Turbo 845 Integrated looks interesting as well but at 100 lbs, not so much! |
Al and Mapman, Good comments from both of you. One does well not to ignore physics and math. Reality is painfully stubborn and persistent. It won't bend no matter how much you want it to. However, in this field, one's subjective perception of that reality must be the final arbiter. Most of us have been gifted with the ears and minds to discern nuances to which 95% of the human race is oblivious. This is why an A/B against Rebbi's Manleys is the ideal. His room, his gear, his music, and his biases. It is after all his dime, and he has to live with his decision. I can't tell him what he should do, because I've never heard his amps in any system. I think the Dynamo is an incredible accomplishment, but it has its limitations. You are not going to get a world class amp for 1.3K. Tim, I also enjoyed your review very much. I also think those new production Gold Lion 5AR4s are quite good. It is nice to see some nice new production tubes that aren't so expensive. Regardless of Rebbi's final decision, he should be credited with inciting a very agreeable and informative thread. Like Charles, I've got better things to do than get involved in the battleground threads. Tubegroover, I urge caution on the Coincident gear. It is addictive. |
I did read the review Charles. Very insightful and through as is the review of the ML 518i. I sensed much the same in Brownsfan's and Mikirob's impressions as well. It makes me want to purchase the amp just to HEAR it particularly at that price. It seems quite remarkable that a product obviously so well made and attractive to boot could be made in Canada, not China, at such a great price. It makes me more curious about Coincident's other offerings. |
Tubegroover, I agree with you, this has been a very informative thread with many good contributions, this is what I look forward to on this site. I've become plain worn out with the battleground threads with the same predictable lines drawn in the sand. Tubegroover you should read Tim Smith's Dynamo review in 6 Moons. The work and effort he put into it is very apparent, in addition he writes well. Charles, |
Its gotta be. It goes against physics for a small box to be more efficient and have flat extended bass. Just cannot be. But might sound quite good still at low to moderate volume and soft clip increasingly as the volume goes up, limiting dynamics. Large scale dynamic works would suffer most. End results at higher volume might still be quite good, but can't be optimal in terms of dynamic headroom. Smaller high efficiency speakers with low ends that roll off at higher frequencies, 50-60 hz or above say, like my "90db" Triangle Titus XL speakers for example would be less affected and probably a better match overall. Or larger more full range high efficiency designs. |
Hi Al, Your insight and technical perspective is always welcome. This is a fine example of very logical use of measurements (Al) vs actually listening to the pairing of amplifier and same speaker (Bill).It seems this combo can do quite a lot with the exception of orchestra music at really high volume. If this isn't a requirement for Rebbi there's the potential to be very happy with this match. Reviewer Tim Smith says the Dynamo was a good match with lower sensitivity Harbeths. Charles, |
Like Tubegroover I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I thought I would point out what appear to be highly credible measurements of the Reference 3A MM de Capo BE, performed by the National Research Council of Canada. They indicate a measured sensitivity of 86.7 db/2.83 volts/1 meter. As can be seen in the first graph, the sensitivity is in the vicinity of 92 db at a few specific frequencies, but is considerably lower at a great majority of frequencies. Also, the impedance curve shown near the bottom of that page indicates that their impedance is about 6 ohms throughout much of the mid-bass region, where lots of energy is often required. 2.83 volts into 6 ohms is 1.33 watts, which is 1.2 db greater than 1 watt. So on a per watt basis, the 86.7 db figure is arguably optimistic by 1.2 db, meaning that 85.5 db/1 watt/1 meter is probably all that can be counted on with a lot of music. Something to consider, despite the comments by the esteemed designers mentioned above. Regards, -- Al |
I tend to agree with Deckert and Brownsfan. But I will say this: on large orchestral pieces, in my 16x14 foot office where the Dynamo's currently reside, hooked up to 95db 8ohm speakers I would not want to push the volume control much beyond 10 o'clock, even though they can go much, much louder without strain, but I'd like to save my hearing. Today I was playing large scale movie music, Gladiator, Ben Hur, El Cid and others, pretty wow experience. |
My understanding from Tash Goka of Reference 3A is that the Antique Sound Labs SET (300b based) 8 watt integrated that they sell was made with the De Capo in mind. Spoke with Israel Blume and he thought the Dynamo and the De Capo would be stellar together. Steve Deckert @ Decware thought that as long as I didn't anticipate playing orchestral music at concert hall volumes I'd be really happy. There's some good info there. |
Charles the only reason I brought up the Magenetic Line, as an example, was power. 8 watts with the Decapo is a big gamble regardless of how great those 8 watts are for the money. It seemed Rebbi had made up his mind to sell his amps and buy either a Dynamo or Decware. I think it great that he buy either amp outright BUT not before listening should he sell the Manley. This isn't a slam dunk decision as he seemed to suggest in his last post. btw, I have throughly enjoyed all the input on this thread. It has been a most interesting read with lots of great info for all that might be interested in SET amplifiers. |
Mikirob, I was working under the same premise as well. The thread focus was on amplifiers such as Dennis Had, Decware and the Dynamo. The LM 518ia moves to a difference price level. No one can really know if Rebbi will prefer the SET over his Manley push pull. I easily chose SET over my two push pull amplifiers after direct comparisons in my system. That's just me and doesn't mean Rebbi will have the same conclusion in his system. If possible a direct comparison is the way to settle choice. Charles, |
The OP never mentioned cost or that he might have difficulty financing a new amp, or that he would have to sell his Manley. That info came way late, after Tim Smith chimed in. The OP stated what his equipment is and asked, ”what's the best BARGAIN in SET's these days.” In seems to me that the OP got a lot of great responses to his question. I know I took a fair amount of time responding to the OPs actual question. The Line Magnetic 518i may be a great amp, but it is no ”bargain” by my standards. If we want to get cute about the term ”bargain” I suppose a statement such as, ”it means different things to different people depending on their financial means at any given time.” But seriously, in the context of this thread, the term bargain never meant the cost of a Line Magnetic 518i, or anything like that. |
The set amp I have actually heard in recent years (at Capital Audiofest) that I mentioned early on here and liked a lot was the GLow Audio Amp 1. I also like the price and compact size. Build quality there would seem top notch as well, direct wiring, hand wrapped xformers, etc., according to their site. They have a newer larger push/pull 15 watt model as well. On their site, they are advertising free dac and pair of either Def Audio, Triangle, or Klipsch speakers with purchase that amp. Or dfree dac but no speakers for the smaller Amp 1. |
"But I feel pretty confident at this point that either the Decware or the Coincident will be a step up from my Manley gear." Rebbi I don't mean to rain on your parade but if you CAN'T because of finances, listen first you are gambling. I'm sure there are many aspects of the SET sound you will love but on the other hand there may be compromises that you have not completely considered to the extent that they may be present. I really love the things SETs excel at particularly the rich, organic natural timbre of instruments that eludes most amplifiers, you can just relax into the music in a way that is most compelling. It's your money and I wouldn't comment other than you are accepting what others say without the benefit of listening first to be sure. Then on the other hand, maybe you need a change. If at all possible I would look at an 845 based SET that has more power that won't compromise the great aspects of the Manley, dynamics and drive with the magic of SET. It seems to me the Magnetic Line would be a GREAT choice although a bit more than you are willing to spend. Remember, 8 watts would be better suited with a more efficient speaker. I'm not too sure the DeCapo's are efficient enough for long term satisfaction. Since Brownfan is the only one in the know in this matter and his listening choices for THAT set-up is primarily in a bedroom for primarily string quartets, I'm sure the Franks will be, without question, his ultimate choice, you may wait until he puts up the Dynamo for sale or save your dough for the Magenetic Line 518i, which looks like a real bargain for all it offers. 22 watts vs 8. A 1.3K amp is not going to provide EVERYTHING and then some over your Manleys. Maybe you can borrow one to listen first? |
Thank you for this, Tim. I also appreciated your analysis of the pros and cons of the Coincident vs. the Declare amps vis a vis aesthetics and flexibility. I think I could live with having to plug and unplug my DAC and phono preamp to switch from LP's to digital if I go wit the Coincident amp. Most of my listening these days is digital, anyway. I'm still dithering on this but my first step will be to see what I can get for my Manley gear. I unfortunately can't afford to lay out any cash without selling the Manley stuff first, so I won't have a chance to a/b the two. But I feel pretty confident at this point that either the Decware or the Coincident will be a step up from my Manley gear. I'll keep you guys posted! :-) |
Thanks Charles and Mikirob, for your nice comments. I worked hard on that review! Yes, I own that Cobb/Malone/Hargrove SACD. I love the way it captures Hargrove's soaring trumpet solos. Same goes for another Chesky release, "Cobb's Corners." I have found that the Dynamo works wonderfully with a Marantz SA8003 SACD player, even with lesser speakers like Mordaunt Short Carnival 2s (they ain't Harbeth but they are excellent for the price). I use that player in my living room set up with the Dynamo now that I have added a Marantz SA-15s2 Limited Edition to my main mancave rig. As for the Line Magnetic amp, my jaw dropped when I first heard jazz guitar on it. It is a great amp with numerous tube rolling options. I am using some Psvane 12ax7s (the best quality ones) and some NOS (they were when purchased) Philips Miniwatts. The amp sounds as good as it looks. It is very receptive to tube rolling. One additional thing about the Dynamo: like others who have posted, I found that the addition of a better rectifier was really the only must-do. I chose a new production Genalex Gold Lion 5AR4. The Mullard is virtually the same tube from the same factory, I believe, and it works well too. I bought both. cheers, tim |
Hello Tim, Thanks for chiming in on this thread. I agree with all of what you said about the Primaluna. But like you did, the Primaluna is going to help fund a Coincident 300B and a Coincident (CSL) 101 tube preamp for me, as well as new speakers, one of Coincident, Devore, Line Magnetic 755 field coil, Daedalus, something like that. The money from the Primaluna might go for some tubes or wires. It won't stretch very far. The Dynamo 34se will stay in my office system. It makes me very happy. Again, really glad to read your further thoughts. Other writers for Internet and audio mags often enough chime in on the A'gon. Your review on the Dynamo was really thorough thanks much. |
Hello Tim, As long as you openly acknowledge your status (reviewer, dealer, manufacturer etc.) it's fine, Srajan posts here on occasion. I hope to read more of your 6 Moons reviews as they're well written, detailed and enjoyable. Your taste in music is very good and that helps to identify the character of a described component and establish context. For an example when you described Russell Malone's beautiful guitar chords ("Sweet Georgia Peach" CD) I knew exactly what you meant! The capability of a component to authentically reproduce tonal color, harmonic overtones, timbre, substain, decay is a must have for me. Jazz guitar in particular is an excellent litmus test for me as well as vibraphone (piano is a given). Tim I believe that you'd love "Jazz In The Key Of Blue" by Jimmy Cobb and features Roy Hargrove (trumpet) and lots of beautifully played guitar from Malone. Regarding the Line Magnetic 518ia, I've read or have heard nothing but praise for this 845 SET amplifier. If I needed more power (and I don't) the 518ia would be a major contender in my search. Fortunately the Coincident Frankenstein satisfies all of my needs. I look forward to reading more of your reviews. Charles, |
Not sure if it's appropriate for me to chime in here, but here goes. As I said in my review, you really don't need to worry about burning your fingers on the tubes. I am 6 foot 6 with big hands. It's not an issue. With regard to the Decware amp mentioned earlier in the thread, that amp seems much more versatile. You can roll all sorts of tubes including the 6L6, which I generally prefer to the EL34. And you can ask for more than one input, but at an additional cost. If you need more than one input and if you like the idea of rolling 6L6s, KT88s, etc, then go with the Decware. I haven't heard that particular Decware but I did own the little 2 watt one (the Zen?) with those Russian radio tubes / EL84 compatible. I found it to be very fast and almost too airy. I sold it after a few weeks. I was much more impressed with the Decware CSP2+ preamp/head amp, which is probably one of the very best head amps in the world. I regret selling that one. I don't think Decware has a bad product in its line. It's a class act. Having said that, another issue to consider: the Decware look. To me it's a bit DIY. The Coincident wins on that score. Also, everything from the power cord to the RCA interconnects to the speaker wires connects on the top plate of Decware amps. It can present logistical and aesthetic problems. But I am certainly tempted by the Decware! Lots of nice 6922s out there to be had at a reasonable price. As for the Coincident Dynamo, I love it. I bought the review sample and frankly I am listening to music once again upstairs in my living room, where the amp rests on top of an armoire. It has replaced a $400 (including shipping charges etc) Musical Paradise MP-301 mk3. The Coincident is easily twice as good. As for selling a Primaluna Prologue or Dialogue... well, I've done that twice to feed the habit but in retrospect those were bad choices. Primaluna is built like a tank and with the KT120 tube it is twice as good as with EL34. I sold my Primaluna to fund the purchase of a Line Magnetic amp. But that's another story! cheers, tim |
Charles, Yes, your statement is completely true. Additionally people must understand that Tim Smith, in writing his stellar review of the Coincident Dynamo 34se, has a different room, different speakers, different power cables, different interconnects and speaker wires, different DAC, transport, power conditioning and so forth. The bottom line though is that the wonderful Coincident Dynamo 34se will sound a bit different in each individual' room than in Tim Smiths room with his rig. What remains constant is that the Dynamo is stellar. You, the listener, can leave as is, or tweak, taylor the sound as you like or not. That is the beauty of a well-made musical tube amp. You have a choice. |
Mikirob, That was a good explanation of tube rolling. It isn't always a good tube replaces bad tube situation. Often it's the opportunity to tailor tube sound to your specific taste. Different doesn't imply better in every case. Some tube component owners never roll tubes, this is strictly a personalized option. Charles, |
Rebbi, I am going to put my Primaluna Dialogue One up for sale this upcoming week. Great integrated lots of inputs, in great condition, for $1,950 plus shipping. So, just a heads up. Of course I'll be running the sale through Audiogon, will not cheat them out of their fees. Plus, I will be selling great NOS tubes for it, and other stuff. I trust it's ok to mention this here? |
Rebbi, You do not need to roll the tubes, it sounds really great stock. You misunderstood the discussion. I enjoy rolling tubes to tweak the sound to my preferences. In fact, as it turns out, I believe I now prefer the sound of the stock Shuguang EL34B slightly better than the NOS RFT Siemens I recently purchased at a cost of $200 for the Dynamo based on Tim Smith's 6 Moons review. If you read Tim's review he used the Siemens, SED Winged C, Psvane Black Treasure, as well as the stock tube; he settled on the Siemens. That of course was to his ears in his space, with his ancillary equipment. In my space with my ears and my ancillary equipment, I think now after listening that the stock tube (again, my space) sounds more open, airy, better separation between instruments, easier to discern what is where, provides a bigger, stage. The RFT Siemens is a bit richer and warmer still, deeper bass, yet not better, just different. Both tubes exhibit wonderful tone, excellent harmonics, dynamics, stage and so forth. The Dynamo will play everything you throw at it in a natural and organic way, it is a musical amp, neither too Yin or Yang, but just right. I have a matched pair of Black Treasure 6CA7s on the way from Grant Fidelity, but you don't have to do what I am doing, comparing and contrasting tubes. The Dynamo sounds great as is. To answer your other question the volume control is not a problem for me, likely not for you. I'm only going to play CDs on this amp, so no problem with additional inputs. |
Rebbi, I'd be willing to bet the stock tube issue just build down to individual preferences and synergies with their stuff in their specific cases. When different tubes sound different, the maker has to decide which to provide. They can't provide them all. The one input issue is a factor but there are workarounds for that, using an eternal switching device for example. The volume knob location may or may not be a real issue. Existing owners could probably say best. Its a fine looking product, but no single product can meet everyones needs best. Features, aesthetics, etc. matter too in addition to sound quality, and are often the deciding factor. |
Okay, I want to thank everybody on this thread for all the valuable information. I think I've got it narrowed down to either the Coincident Dynamo or the Decware SE34I.4, which are similarly priced. Everyone's enthusiasm for the Dynamo here is very impressive, but I think there are 3 hesitations I'd have on the Dynamo. First, I wonder if that volume knob nestled between the two tubes up front is a finger-toasting hazard. Second, I am a little bummed that it has only one input... that just means that I'd have to unhook my DAC and hook up my phono preamp whenever I wanted to listen to my analogue front end. Not a deal breaker but kind of a shame. Finally, I'm a little put off by the consensus that the amp doesn't sound its best with the stock tubes, but requires tube rolling (and additional investment) to sound its best. On the other hand, I take it that the amp's built to a certain price point and that this dictated some skimping on tube quality. Your thoughts? And thanks for all your help I really do appreciate it. By the way, I called Coincident today and believe I must've have spoken to Israel Blume himself. He was very cordial. |
Mikirob, let me know what you think of this version vs those that you already own. I have not yet downloaded the Jansons and Barshai cycles to my HAPZ1. I need to get that done. I especially like the Jansons 4th. It is the best I have heard. The HAPZ1 makes older recordings sound so good that it is much easier to enjoy them, and the Barshai and Jansons cycles I think are excellent in terms of performance quality. What are your preferred recordings of the Shostakovich symphonies? |
Brownsfan, Thank you so much for the recommendation. I do not own that copy, will buy. I enjoyed reading the various commentaries on this cd. Charles, my wife plays classical guitar, her ears are stellar, she is my touchstone when it comes to the quality of sound. Plus, she really enjoys the equipment search (shows), and listening to tube differences. Absolutely no resistance to music or equipment purchase. Such a blessing. Saki70, I hope my comments above helped you. If you have any further questions on equipment I own, please don't hesitate to ask. |
Mikirob, Your wife has good ears, does she share your musician background? The SET amplifiers sacrifice power relative to push pull alternatives. Their simpler design/circuits in return offer purer and more natural sound IMO. There's less complexity and fewer parts affecting the signal. I bet your wife hears this advantage (lively and increased sense of realism). Plus if she's similar to my wife she'll consider the Dynamo "cute". My wife can definitely detect/hear the differences in "naturalness" amongst various audio components. She'll say Charles, "that one sounds more real than the other one". Charles, |
No, the Cary combo of V-12, SL98 actually sounds better than the the Primaluna Dialogue One. Also, I liked the V-12 with the Audible Illusions Modulus 3A as much or more when I owned that wonderful preamp. The Primaluna Dialogue has many more inputs and it's tube rolling with its auto-bias capabilities is second to none. It is overbuilt like a tank, looks and sounds great at about 68 pounds. I definitely upgraded the Primaluna sound by replacing the stock power tubes (Shuguang), with Reflector 6n3ce (6L6) and input/drivers with costly NOS Sylvania black 3 mica 5751s as well as Bugle Boy 12Au7s. I'm cutting my throat here, but to my ears, my wife' s ears, the Coincident Dynamo 34se sounds better all-around. |
