Hi,been in audio preatty much all my live,play a few instruments myself, and it is chocking to me how many people in this hobbie, because they have a few Hi end gear think that they can discern sonic diferences,or that their system sounds amazing, when 80% of time when I' listen to those fellows system, the sound is horrible, I'm talking about systems in the upper $50000, and this people come out, talking about soundstage, inner detail, and layers of sound cascading thru a huge soundscape, another thing is that, I'thought all this audiophile people where a group of well to do business people, that had money to speare, when the truth is that most of audiophile people are broked and dont' have their priorities toghether, been at many many, audiophile people's house, and it is sad, people with, high end systems, and no furniture,just bought a pair of speakers, $11000 retail and an Aiwa,component has more BASS THAN this speakers, affter spending more than $2500, on cables,think someone is taking advantage of the audiophile community
many of you make excellent points.i to have listened to systems that i thought sounded terrible but the owners thought was audio nirvana.and i agree the simpler a system is kept, the more oportunity for a better sound.i dont think it is that audiophiles dont know how to listen.it is how they go about setting up their systems.some like home theatre systems.some like me are two channel analog freaks.when setting up my current system my 1st priority was stereo separation.i wanted most of my lower frequencies on the left side ,most of the highs on the right.all recordings and formats we have are two channel.note all recordings are not equal so perfection is out the window.sonic clarity was next priority.last was sources and tweaks.i picked my speakers 1st.then my amps.then my sources.most recently i chose the replacements for my stock power cords.AS FOR PAYING ATTETION TO REVIEWS I DONT.NOR DO I BELEIVE SPENDING 5000.00FOR A SET OF CABLES IS NECESSARY. LET YOUR EARS LISTEN , LET YOUR SPIRIT ENJOY. AND LET YOU COMMON SENSE GUIDE YOU.AND I THINK TOU WILL BE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS.
This isn't exactly earth shattering news. Spending money on audio equipment does not validate one's musical knowledge anymore than spending money on an education validates one's intelligence. I've heard very expensive systems that did not sound very good and I know folks with many degrees who aren't very bright. I know some who have fancy cars who aren't good drivers and some (like me) with expensive golf clubs that suck at golf.
So what's the point? If someone buys something that makes them happy, who are you or I to rain on their parade? Live and let live.
Another interesting phenomenon in audio is the higher the price, the less one can criticize it. It is almost as if price by itself makes something legit. And of course, there are reviewers who will lavish praise on any component that breaks new boundaries in price. Heck, some reviewers will begin to talk about how great an expensive component will sound, before it is even released!
I still hold on to a dimly held belief that people, if they got together, listened, and discussed openly, could actually agree on what constitutes the best sound. There should seem to be systems that would get universal respect and praise on achieving high marks across the board.
Sure, some people like chocolate and some people like vanilla. But, I think people could agree on what is great chocolate ice crease and what is great vanilla ice cream.
this thread reminds of the time I was at a friends house who had a high end ATC system (which sounded very good) but I mentioned to them that I had recently listened to a live violin that was a few feet away and how rich and dynamic it sounded and how our stereos do not capture much of the true quality. One of the guys started pulling out CDs with violins and playing them, as if to impress me, I stopped talking about the live violin as I think I offended him or maybe he imagined he was going to educate me I do not know, but I agree with Ivor Tiefenbrun from Linn that we really only capture about 15% of the live event.
Frankly I agree there is a lot of truth in what you say Juan. I do think it is easy to loose sight of the goal and get sidetracked in the minutiae of detail and soundstage etc...
Hey! we could start a SS vs tube post! vinyl vs digital!
IÂ’m guessing IÂ’m one of those that canÂ’t tell a good sounding system from a clock radioÂ… but I really donÂ’t care because IÂ’m thrilled with the way my system sounds.
Col. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I think I'm entitled. Col. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth! Col. Jessep: You canÂ’t handle the truth!*
Not only is Juancgenao brave, he's smarter than almost everyone else in the *whole world*. Thanks for sharing! I hadn't heard, and I think it's pretty cool. John
Juancgenao: Will not comment as to the musical ability of audiophiles in general or stereotype (pun intended) audiophiles as far as income bracket. What I will share is an experience that I had when looking for speakers. After listening to a pair of what I considered horrible sounding overpriced speakers, and to the salesman talking about some of his other items on the floor, including a "25k" amplifier that sounded like "bliss", and generally talking in 10s of thousands of $$$, he inquired if I was expecting a large tax refund and stated that financing was available. I found this not only odd, but illuminating. This supports your statement to the extent that there is a market for people who are seeking to purchase what are essentially luxury items well beyond their means. The salesman's pitch had the flavor of "be important - get status, buy expensive stuff (or expensive garbage in that case)" I doubt that this is limited to audiophiles - look at the mortgage crisis - it wasn't all "bad big business" somebody had to be on the "got taken" end of the deal. All purchasers of high end equipment of any sort should first consult a psychic - but pick only one who has a crystal ball with silver speckles rather than copper and, if you are getting your palm read, cyrogenic paint.
I believe we place different priorities on sound. Also, some people find certain inaccuracies more offensive than others.
For example, I find exaggerated image size to be particularly offensive. It is a sensitivity. I also don't like an image that is too forward. And yet, others want to listen to the music as though they are a few feet from the stage. To me, it is like I am sitting inside the saxophone or piano. For others, they feel like they are in an intimate venue. Different perspectives, but I think particular sensitivities can result in an immediate rejection because you cannot suspend belief to know you are not in front of 2 speakers.
Another problem is the severe lack of criticism in audio. I would pay for someone to come to my home to tell me what is wrong with my system. I want to learn and have different perspectives so I can increase my enjoyment. And yet, everyone fawns over every last piece of audio equipment. What if we spent so much time complementing our wives and children? I would love for a reviewer to dispense with a piece of equipment as garbage or poor value. It seems that people are way too easily offended. People get very defensive and territorial when it comes to their equipment.
I think Juan is overstating his case, but there is truth in what he says. Sometimes I look at people's system listed here on Audiogon and I just can't imagine how they could sound any good. Excellent equipment, at least by reputation, but what I consider really questionable setup. On the other hand I see some systems/rooms that truly do look like audio nirvana. Some people really do know what they're doing, but not everyone. Of course, everybody here is in the former group!
Juan, I agree with you. I have also been to many so called audiophile homes who's system sounded like anything but music and extremely thin. I call it the "weenie" sound because the system sounds small and light weight all in an effort to extract more detail.
High Fidelity Defined: Sound reproduction equipment that produces sound as near to the original sound as possible.
I'm sure many here remember Tandberg products. Tandberg wanted to upgrade their 3000 series products and approached their engineers with this request. The engineer's replied they were doing everything they knew to get the best sound. Tandberg was not satisfied with that and sent their engineers to "Ear Training". The engineers were required to listen to live music with someone to tell them what to listen for. Once the engineers knew what to listen for they began trying different technics and different parts to find out what sounded better. The result was the Tandberg 3000 "A" models.
Juan is right. It seems like the more expensive the system the worse it sounds. I think audiophiles should start out small and work their way up to a better system and learn as they go. In some ways it's like riding a motorcycle. Start out small and gradually work up to a bigger bike opposed to the middle aged guy that finally has enough money to buy a Harley for his first motorcycle and becomes a statistic.
I don't buy it's a matter of personal taste because I think alot of people don't know what to listen for like the Tandberg engineers. I think there are a lot of people that buy based on recommendations such as Stereophile Recommended components. They select from so called Class "A" or Class "B" lists and they get a bad match because they don't know what they are doing and think it must sound good because it was recommended by the Gods and they spent alot of money.
Besides that everyone is getting sucked into room treatment and power cords whether they need it or not. Room treatment is powerful and too much room treatment can be worse than no treatment at all and how many power cords do you have to replace before you become totally lost.
Less is more. Some of the best sounding systems I have heard are simple systems. The more complicated things get the worse it sounds.
We hear with our ears....and listen with our mind....
Take a deep breath, think about what you want your music system to sound like, and start creating it. That's the beauty in this hobby....you have some control over what you want to listen to. If you can't find it in someone else's design and product, create your own.
Whatever you do, have fun. Life is too short to be frustrated and disappointed in "stuff" that doesn't improve the quality of your life.
I think besides playing flamenco guitar Juan plays the skin flute. You said "keep it coming". This post is ridiculous, like so many others on the 'Gon.
The first thing I was going to say was who pissed in your cornflakes this morning but the more I read, I realized you're angry because you bought some crappy speakers & cables.
Well, that's what you get when you buy something based on what somebody else wrote in a review and/or recommended to you. Why is it somebody's fault you made this mistake? Don't you know the first rule of buying gear is trust your own ears? You're making a huge statement by saying:
my point is, most of this so call audiophile, have no clue, of what a great system should sound like
Oh, so you've been to 15 homes & they all sucked (your opinion). That makes you an expert, huh?
Well, I'll put my Optimus speakers & amp up against your system anytime. So there!
MY system is simple, Joulet electra150MkIIse. Quick silver M100.mono blocks Kora hermes, Dac sonic frontier FST-I, transport. Oracle Delphy IV, TT, KCI, silk worm I/C Merlin, Vsm, MMe speakers MIT 750, music Hose, spkr, cables ELrod PC Black sandviolet ZII PC Audience e' PC Former speakers. Von swheikert VR4,
Bizango, I'm a musician, been playing flamenco guitar for many years, my ears, are just fine, Don't believed in people saying, to my ears, it sounds good, good music, good tone, good pace and rhythm should sound good for everybody who likes good music, you have people listening to music in a different language, from different culture and music is enjoyed just as much, when sold my former speakers, to a Chinese guy, came an pick them up, when first listened, the hair in the back of his head stood up, and told me, that after all those years as an audiophile, never heard any thing so realistic sounding as my system, and was very quick in paying me in full, no discount, this guy is a professor at Princeton University, very, very knowledgeable, my point is, most of this so call audiophile, have no clue, of what a great system should sound like, my last purchase, was in NY, drove to The village, to pick up a pair of cardas I/C, wont' disclose the sellers name, this fellow had a Doshi, preamp, with Bryston monoblocks, Esoteric CD player, and B&W 802D speakers, Killer system, played some tunes for me, and couldn't leave the room quick enough,Flat, one dimension sound , no Bass, Horrible, and he was so proud, that it was a shame to me to look him in the eye, and tell him that his system sounded great, the mid range was just slapping me in the face, the sad thing was that he told me that he just purchased a pair of analysis plus Gold I/C used for $3400,felt sorry for the guy, hope he is not in the forum:
Hi, ehaller precisely, you must be one of them, my point is, that all this people talking about sound, don'know, what are they talking about, if a system is unable to give me the illusion that I'm in from of a orchestra, or at least the emotion of a real venue, to me is garbage, we just don't stop and pay attention, been in more than 15 audiophile's homes, with mega buck's systems, and have walked out of those houses' unimpressed, I'm a little angry, because after replacing my speakers, for a pair that cost five times more, after reading tons of rave reviews, and all the class A" crap, lost every thing, musicality, realism, BASS, and every thing that makes a good speaker sound great, plus $2800, in used cables, Just want to meet the people who wrote those 20 pages reviews, bring them home and show them how a good system is supposed to sound like:
Juan, if 80% of the systems you're heard sound horrible, and many are upwards of $50K, then maybe it's your ears or preferences that are so different than the rest. In my experience most decent systems sound amazingly similar making me wonder why we try so hard to achieve better (different than we already have) sound through upgrades. Maybe that's just MY ears!
man.... i feel really bad now. you saw right through me Juan. thought i knew what i liked, but obviously i don't. i've been a fool. my apologies. will take your advise and sell all my gear....then get some food and cloths (maybe a chair) with the proceeds
Juan, what do you care how someone else's system sounds? If they like it and felt their money was well spent, then so be it. What's really the point of this post, to get people to question their ears? I don't get it. At least you spelled bass correctly. Why don't we post another " What's the best.............."
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