I remember reading someone saying that the most important part of a system was the source. I thought "Wrong! Speakers are the most important".
Now, I have changed my mind. Source is the most important part.
Right or wrong but this is how I came to this conclusion;
I have tried the same system with a CD player and a turntable. By far LP sounds better than a CD. Btw, the system had all high-end amps, speakers, cables, etc.
I agree that it all starts from a source, but if preamp is not able to deliver it without veiling and distorting the signal, the source makes no big difference. Most mid-fi preamps are actually not able to transmit everything that a good source has to offer. Therefore for lower cost and budget systems I suggest a decent passive preamp like TVC for example. Start building the system from speakers
to source. If everything below is up to the task then it makes sense
to experiment with a source components.
"maplegrovemusic Anyone who stated source first in their list of importance please let me know what source will turn any speaker into some magical transducer . I really would like to try it ! Thanks, mike."
I build DHT components. So IMO the source made the system sound the best. I began by building a better preamp, settled on DHT preamp with no caps in the signal path and as good as it sounded, the source (DAC) I built made the sound something that I never experienced before. So that is how I came to my conclusion source first. Same with the phono stage I build. By better the components they created a sound that had details, could produce dynamic swings, micro/macro dynamics, separation, clarity, depth of soundstage (4D), placement, etc. that I never heard before. Once that happened, I came to my conclusion that I everything else I tried over the years was to me chasing my own tail around. Better speakers only improved what I was hearing. I also came to this conclusion because when conducting auditions for other audio systems in those homes, those people after 30 seconds (yes 30 seconds) asked to purchase the components. Recently had a person with very expensive Magico speakers and what I would consider a cheap DAC, SS around $2K. OK sounding to me but after we switched source components, he heard things he never heard before. It transformed his system. It is the same change I hear in every system that we auditioned our components in, the source made the biggest sound improvement no matter the price of the speakers, Type of speakers, amps, cables, treatments, etc.
i've read, re-read, experienced and re-experienced, it is the speakers. Put a great system on stupid speakers = stupid result Put an average system on good or great speakers = it raises your system up!!
"In considering what’s most influential in our listening rooms, which I believe to be important, I want to step back to ask a question with a wider view, specifically because listening to music is more than a technical exercise created with ’equipment’. To admit my own bias here, I want a presentation of music that takes my breath away, affecting me deeply at an emotional level."
Mountaineer to Guide: I finally made it! All that time and money finally paid off. The view from the top of Everest is a once in a lifetime experience. The view from here is breathtaking! Alone at the Top of the World! Nothin’ but blue sky!
Guide to Mountaineer: Whoa! Hey, take it easy, McGillicutty. Don’t get so choked up. You’re only at Base Camp.
"My own answer, expressed in general terms, is that a chain is as strong as its weakest link, wherever that link may happen to be located in a particular system."
Fully agree with Al. The music will find and expose your weakest link like Tom Brady and Julian Edelman going after a rookie slot cornerback.
In my case, upgrading the pre-amp from a Plinius M8 to a Symphonic Line tube pre-amp made the biggest difference. The Plinius was nice enough, the SL is great (even if it is an older model from 1999). Another sizeable leap occurred when I changed swapped tubes in the pre-amp from Electro Harmonix to Telefunken. Perhaps the most bang for my buck came from putting two $30 Majesty Palm trees in the corners behind the speakers, which helped tame reflections from the windows in the room.
Dave thanks for the link.That Mike post blew me away.Thats why iam always, amaze how humble he share his experience here at Agon.I remember He explain why cables are expensive, He did explain it also in simple terms.
That was a mouthful, so what came first the chicken or the egg? Maybe I missed it but what was most important? I trust my own ears, no book or expert can lay it out for me. Give me pointers perhaps but ultimately its up to me .
There are a lot of interesting answers in this thread.
In considering what's most influential in our listening rooms, which I believe to be important, I want to step back to ask a question with a wider view, specifically because listening to music is more than a technical exercise created with 'equipment'. To admit my own bias here, I want a presentation of music that takes my breath away, affecting me deeply at an emotional level.
In my not so humble opinion, I would like to ask whether, based upon the [predicted] variety of answers above, we, and the OP, might benefit from an examination, and perhaps refinement of the question Celo originally posed.
Here's one / the reason the answers vary so widely, and it may hint at which of the previous posts are more likely to be on the mark: every listening room differs; every Combination (caps used for emphasis because italics is not available) of components interacts differently than another combination. Further, every combination of components sounds different in a Different Listening Space. Finally, the same components' sound can differ Wildly in the same listening space depending upon their Physical Position in the room and the Attention that has been invested (yes, Invested) in their Complimentary Selection and equally, their Setup.
Let's rephrase / refine / and divide the question this way (for example, to accommodate those who have WAF to consider, though that's just one example of the reason to refine the question).
What is the aim of the listener?
I've heard three quarter million dollar systems, one that sounds like a wall of Marshall rock amplifiers, a second that sounds not much at all like Any form of music I've ever heard, and the third that sounds pretty good but that certainly, for the investment, should sound one Heck of a lot better. The first plays at ear-splitting levels yet doesn't image and can't render classical music with depth, nuance or delicacy. Is that important to the owner? No, and it's a dedicated listening room not subjected to WAF, highly --if not well-- treated for sound quality. The second was at a stereo store, set up by the manufacturer's setup specialist, and the third has a custom designed listening room in a dedicated Building. Hmm. Something's questionable about this situation, but what?
Some rooms can be no-holds-barred, well bankrolled and sound less than satisfying [to my ears], yet fully satisfy their owners. Price point does not determine quality: in the room mentioned above, everything was of a very high quality (cables cost more than my entire system and I'm in no way jealous of the sound; just the opposite) and those components were selected with considerable care to work together by an intelligent person. Clearly self-knowledge is diagnostic in this case; the listener gets what he / she wants. Whether it pleases me or others is irrelevant.
What about the listening room that has to share space and / or function with other family activities? What is most influential in the quality of listening experience in a non-dedicated listening room? That's arguably a different question, due to the shared / multiples application(s) of the space, and as such begs the posing of a different question, based upon its unique combination of applications --the listener's biases and expectations.
What are your Listening Priorities, Preferences and Expectations? How well, and how honestly, have you asked this of yourself?
Does the system you assemble 'Fit' your listening preferences? If you listen exclusively to E. Power Biggs on the Busch Reisinger organ, mini monitors aren't likely for you. Chamber Orchestra wasn't well presented on the expensive system mentioned above.
A friend who sets up systems had a client who fell in love when he heard my friend's system. He bought every single component my friend had, set it up. Hated the sound. Sold it all and got out of audio. The deal is that Those components, In my Friend's Room, set up with his His Experience (and highly educated ear) sounded Wonderful. The components were Top Flight, so it wasn't the gear that was at fault.
I had the unusual good fortune to have an expert evaluate my system In My Listening Room. Jim Smith --of Get Better Sound fame-- did a what he calls Room Play, measuring the room's technical characteristics and adjusting the position of the components and the room based upon his reference selection of music.
My system is arguably middle-range high end gear. I had worked with Jim's book and got the system sounding better than ever before. His work, however, took my system far beyond the best I could do, resulting in what I found a 'Musical' listening experience. The music, the gear, And the room never sounded better.
It is, in my experience, safe to say that no Single factor or component can said authoritatively to be Most Important in determining sound quality of Any room. However, no room, component or system will ever sound its best without attention to the whole.
A wholistic approach to audio is, in my opinion, what causes so much disappointment in many people's approach to creating a listening environment that fully matches their needs, expectations or hopes. What's sad about this is that what's behind this thread --asking a revealing question-- is so seldom 'tuned' to the listener's needs. But that, too, is a Catch 22: like getting your first job, you have to have experience. But how do you get your first job?
The degree to which a listener knows, admits and works with his / her listening preferences IS determinitive of outcome. In That sense, it is the listener him- or her-self who is Most Important in achieving the satisfaction that high end audio can offer. In this sense, Every choice, selection and matching of components, (careful (and often tedious)) positioning of them in a listening room, vibration isolation, tweaks and continuous curiosity brought to focus on how sound might be improved are subservient to a listener's willingness to be honest about the preferences, biases and desires they bring a priori to their listening chair.
No room treatments, component choice or amount spent can outweigh the 'Listening Life Unexamined': start there. To paraphrase Eric Clapton, 'Before you accuse [your system/ listening room, etc], take a look at your self'. And then pose, or if necessary rephrase, the question of what you want from your listening experience. That will lead you first, to a refined understanding of your priorities and second, to a substantially improved listening experience, perhaps taking some considerable time. But it is an investment of those hours in fulfillment. Can you put a price on that?
As said previously, YOU, are the most important link in the chain.
My personal thoughts are; Sh*t in = Sh*t out. If the source is poor, anything downstream is just reproducing, and perhaps trying to compensate. I totally agree with @jmcgrogan2 on the medium being the absolute beginning of the chain. Whatever our choice on playback of the LP/CD/ etc. is, it's the starting point of what will follow quality wise down stream. Just my opinion, for what its worth.
as a person known for building a system without gear limits or room limits, it's easy for me to say the most important thing for me has been the sonic reference in my mind i am trying to attain. as my sense of where i'm going has progressed, my system performance has followed. and recent room tuning success was tied completely to my minds grasp of the goal. previous frustrations were tied to a less than clear target.
if we are ranking pieces of a system in order of significance, then the whole speaker-room interface is dominant. are the speakers scaled to the room so the music works in the room? some speakers are more flexible than others. some driver topographies are less room dependent than others. but at the end of the day you cannot overcome this obstacle. and if this is right, you can go modest levels of everything else and you can have excellent music reproduction.
next is the amplifier-speaker relationship. can the amplifier properly control the speaker? and is the tonal and dynamic synergy good? again; getting this right makes everything else pretty easy.
preamps are important, especially at the top of the food chain. and an uber system needs a great preamp. but at more modest levels of gear sometimes eliminating the preamp is actually preferred as it can get in the way. there is not one truth in this issue.
these days sources can be very modest and yet make great music. so again the significance of sources depends on the overall level of the system. at the top of the food chain they are limiting, but at modest levels lots of choices work great.
(1)have a reference in your head at to where you are going, or trust someone who does. (2)get the speaker right for the room, and (3) an amp that works well with the speaker. get those right and you are in pretty good shape.
Pluto geoffkait, English is not my first language, so I can`t express myself very skillfully. I see your wonderful writing and I think What a U doing here? .... Please let us know when your book comes to sale?
That's very nice of you to say, Pluto. A lot of people say it looks like Greek to them.
English is not my first language, so I can`t express myself very skillfully. I see your wonderful writing and I think What a U doing here? .... Please let us know when your book comes to sale?
gsm18439, your post intrigued me. I'm not as experienced as many here, but I'm not inexperienced. However, while the information you provide makes sense, I don't come to the same conclusion. I would conclude from your experience that the change of speakers resulted in a change in the significance of the amp with which they are paired. By the way, my most recent change was from SS to OTL tube amps and the quality/liveliness of the reproduction of the music has taken a very noticeable jump, given it's a good recording that I'm listening to. My next major upgrade is to hopefully to change to more efficient speakers, specifically the Zu Druids, to further advance this development. In other words, without your Zu speakers, you would not have fully appreciated the quality of your SET amp. I not sure which is the more important component, but I would say that both the amp and the speakers are important.
Let us call it mind-matter interaction. You could also call it extra sensory perception. The subconscious mind picks up on but misinterprets it’s surroundings, especially the immediate surroundings, and shuts down (degrades) the perception of sound as a response. Of course you’ve been accustomed to it your whole life so you take it for granted. You cannot control it because it’s subconscious. That’s it in a nutshell. That’s why, after the best laid plans have been implemented - the best electronics, the best cables, the best room treatments, the system still sounds edgy and shrill and distorted, especially in the treble. Especially when played at moderately high or high volume.
melbguy Interesting that a violin builder puts the most time and attention into the body which gives the tone, not the strings which sing. That could be translated as the source transmitting through the speakers. Then the auditorium (the room) determines whether the sound can rise and decay accurately, without getting screwed up. Kind of reminds of you of the three most important parts of your rig.
actually, the value of the bow often far exceeds the value of the violin, even very good violins.
Lol, Everyone is right. I think also your ears are the most important part of any system. If I’m deaf, I could spend a 100k on a system but to no avail will it make a difference. Your ears determine whether you are happy with the playback or not, I probably have a joke as cost of a system. But the more I tweak it the more my smile n heart of music is brighter. My preference is pure 3D sound maybe because I’m older now, whereas back in my drumming days loud was the primary pt. Enjoy your Music....
Interesting that a violin builder puts the most time and attention into the body which gives the tone, not the strings which sing. That could be translated as the source transmitting through the speakers. Then the auditorium (the room) determines whether the sound can rise and decay accurately, without getting screwed up. Kind of reminds of you of the three most important parts of your rig..
Audiophiles seem to be under the impression that in the best case scenario, with excellent equipment, excellent cables, excellent room treatments, even vibration isolation and CD treatments, that the sound thus obtained is only 5% or 10% from The Absolute Sound. Audio Nirvana. In other words, there is this concept out there people seem to fall for that there’s some magic ceiling above which audiophiles are forbidden to go. As if it were mathematically impossible, that Sound Quality Is some sort of hyperbolic function and once SQ gets to a certain point on the curve it cannot be improved without heroic effort. As if the laws of physics and mathematics cannot be broken. All of that, dear friends, is totally untrue. You've been hornswoggled. That’s the big can of worms I was talking about. Hel-loo! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it certainly appears audiophiles have been following the wrong sheep.
I guess there are many different opinions on this topic! I agree with the above well described weakest link theory. But to my logic and ears, speakers will impart the biggest personality influence on sound quality. Yes, lousy room acoustics, poor recording and distorted amplification will ruin sound quality and it goes without saying that these weak links must be removed in order to have even decent sound. With none of the weak links present, a change of speakers will have the biggest impact in sound. Spending extreme sums on cables, cords and other minor influences prior to getting speakers, room and source right is a fool's folly propagated by ultra high end manufacturers who make serious profits. Speakers and room, if done right, are unfortunately the most expensive part of the equation requiring the most time, money, effort and wife acceptance. Cables and cords, to my obviously tone deaf ears, don't make much difference relative to the cost. I have heard great speakers with average electronics and have been wowed but have been underwhelmed by great electronics paired with sub par speakers.
Speakers.....60% room............20% source/music/ amp.....15% all else.........5%
Estimated margin of error 5% depending on component combinations and sound preferences.
The above is my ball park assessment of importance relative to achieving sound quality. I too cringe when I see a virtual system with a large fortune spent on components with no attention paid to room, furniture and acoustics. Take a look at Fabio's $500k system with marble floors, glass walls and no acoustic treatments (he must have no upper end hearing if he thinks that echo chamber sounds right). In the end, to each his own.
I used to think speakers, but my opinion has evolved a bit. My previous system (Linn speakers) seemed to sound pretty much the same irrespective of the amplifier and/or CD player; and most CDs sounded decent and similar. However, in my current system (Zu Def 4s) when my SET amp required servicing and I had to use a back-up SS amp, the sound became almost boring and uninviting and unengaging; it reverted to "normal" just as soon as my SET was re-inserted. Plus, CDs sound "different"- some good, some bad, and some indifferent.
For me, the loudspeakers are the most important part of your system since. No matter how good your source is, if the speakers can’t convey the full dynamics, scale, impact and resolution as a coherent whole, with realistic sound staging and imaging, then you will never get the full capability out of a better source. Then again, I was ruined for life after hearing a pair of Infinity IRS-V’s in a Dealer’s showroom back in 1991!
Next in order would be..
- Source - amp - room- - cables - isolation - a/c power - good recordings
To me it is speakers that the most most important, followed by the room. Good digital sources are easy to come by. I've heard the mantra 'rubbish in, rubbish out' but the fallacy, or rather irrelevance, of that is for amplifiers: 'rubbish amplification, rubbish out' or for speakers: 'rubbish out, rubbish out'.
In Jim Smith's book, Get Better Sound, he states the room is the most important component of any system.
Many years ago I gave no thought to "the room" whatsoever. Over the last 10 years or so I've spent more and more time voicing and acoustically treating my rooms and it's made a bigger difference than I would have ever thought... food for thought. :o)
Anyone who stated source first in their list of importance please let me know what source will turn any speaker into some magical transducer . I really would like to try it ! Thanks,mike.
For me its speakers. Once you've found the pair that move you for all practical purposes your there. Improvements in everything else, source, amp, preamp, cables, will only making them sound even better. Don't care what people say, if you start with crappy sounding speakers, no source, amp, etc... will make them sound better.
Speakers are the personality of the system. I'd rather hear my speakers with a boombox for power/source than to hear the boombox speakers with the rest of my system for power/source. Of course, none of us would put together either combination but you get the idea. I'll take fine speakers with so-so electronics over the alternative.
Speakers. I have some Wilson Sophias. They sound great through my McIntosh preamp/amp setup. And they also sound pretty good through my 30 yr old Technics 40watt integrated that I dug out of the basement and used until I found a new preamp to replace the one I had sold. So, speakers is my answer. Hands down.
Great question , and some excellent responses. But gentleman are you all out to lunch ? The most important measure of any system is " DOES IT PASS THE WIFE FACTOR "! I just felt like injecting some humor 😮 . But thanks to all for a great question and some very informative responses. Happy listening , Mike B.
"I have not had nearly as much upgraditus as others. I believe it is because I have chosen carefully and wisely. I don’t try to achieve a sound or sugar coated flavour filled sound. I seek accuracy and total neutrality. My thrills come from the music and the recordings and realistic convincing presentation that conveys the true dynamics of live music and real instruments (requires more than 120 db of clean headroom). Audio systems should be like a great camera lens - as clear as possible."
Gee, no kidding? I don’t think I’ve ever run across anyone who’s goal was sugar coated flavor filled sound. And I doubt anyone would disagree audio systems should be as clear as possible. I also suspect you are confusing dynamic range with headroom or peak level, whatever.
Such a controversial subject. lol, yeah and you'll get 17 different opinions. That being said, it's true that it's all important and the weakest link suffers, but I think that your source/preamp are extremely important. If the sound quality of the waveforms are not there from the start, there is no way you are able to restore it by downstream devices (i.e. amp/speakers). Sure, you could compensate somewhat for a bad source by using different preamp/cables/etc., but it's just compensating/synergy. It's not really restoring the original quality. There can be combinations that work well, however.
The choice of amp is important, but does not affect the sound as much as source/preamp. Source/preamp are also more sensitive to type of power cord / fuse / outlet. Interestingly enough, my R&D and experience has shown that power cables and interconnects are extremely important. I have made an average amp/speaker system sound world class by using ultra-high end power and interconnect components (i.e. OCC Copper solid core, rhodium connectors all the way through, Furutech fuses). My opinion on order of importance is as below.
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