What is most important part of a system?
Isn't the premise of this whole thread faulty? That a single component will make a system worth listening to. For example, I often see expensive speakers paired with average components as if the speakers are going to magically make the system worthwhile. As much as we would love for there to be shortcuts, the reality is that the system must be properly balanced and crappy components anywhere in the chain (including the room) make it such that you might as well light on fire the money paid for good components because they will forever be handicapped by the components not similarly commensurate in quality. |
Bigkids, My comment was meant as a joke a bit. I am confident that your DAC is super but since I`m in Europe it will be difficult for me to test it, though the temptation is high. P.S. I hear quite a substantial differences in different digital front ends in my system. It is subjective but some are night and day differences. Best regards Plutos |
Plutos Most people are not prepared to hear the difference. They kind of get a puzzled look on their face and then move to sit in the position where they normally go to listen, pull out a recording they want to hear and then they ask how much for me. I wanted to give the benefit of a doubt also. But I like your thought process. |
randy-11I am not likely to let big kidz anywhere near my system. I like this! czarivey If there's a $35k budget for DAC, why not try $250 DAC and see what changes positive or negative rite? I have been repairing, building, modifying components for 25 years. Built almost everything out there, tired caps, resistors, tubes, cables, etc. I am lucky to be in an area where I can hear many many systems and components, also when repairing something, I can hear it in my system. It cost over $3K in parts for my DAC, why because having a partner who is has a masters in EE, we can build anything we want and that is what it takes to make our DAC. If I could build something cheaper that sounded as god as my DAC, boy I sure would! I could send the design to China, send it to dealers and retire. When I bring my DAC over to someones home to hear in their system, it takes 30 seconds before they say, i want one, they tell me that they have been audio people for 20-30-40 years and have owned many components, then they ask how we did it. I am not saying that I am the only one who can do this but I am one of the few who understands how to make a Direct Heated Triode DAC and preamp (no caps in the signal path). Recently I had a gentlemen who worked in the industry for 35 years, retired now. He has seen everything in his system and most people who compared theirs to his, never made it. When he heard my DAC in his system he bent down on one knee and ordered one. 30 seconds is all it took. It took a few years to make this sound the way it does. Send me the DAC you have and and I will set up a meeting to compare the two so it won't be just my opinion. I will make an exception and do this. It will be fun for 30 seconds! Happy Listening. |
if its a case of where to spend the most money, in this audiophile life we have never usually really got enough money so my go at answering this question is now going to be speakers, having great speakers at least makes sure that you have left the best till last and whatever signal has been achieved by your system it will not be getting held back at the last part of the chain, garbage in garbage out will still be playing a big part here but at least the speakers will be as good as you can get , no good spending most of your money on a piece of equipment further up the chain if you have got a pair of s**t speakers , so on a budget the new answer is definitely spend the most money on the speakers , room acoustics are a big issue but very simple free ideas like hanging curtains around the walls and adding some soft furnishings like rugs and cushions usually can tame a lively room , using simple 40gbp RDC cones under your speakers is a good prity cheap solution , so where to spend the most money will be speakers definitely. |
great question , but its all important garbage in garbage out so a good front end is important, the right speakers are also just as important they all sound different in my room anyway , room acoustics very important or your never get the best out of any component, a better quality sounding amplifier can make a huge difference to sound quality ie going from a good ss to a great valve or vacuum tube amp is an incredible experience ,also trying a passive pre amp can be incredible also but im going with the front end as the man behind linn said garbage in garbage out , another wise man once said you cant polish s**t |
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Planning is the most important thing you can do. Figure your budget then look at what that money will buy you. Good vinyl, these days can be pricey and may require an external phono stage plus cables..... On a restricted budget I would think you would plan on getting efficient speakers, that way you are not left thinking you should get more watts to make it all sound terrific. That more watt philosophy does not always make sense. So high efficient speakers then sweet little tube amp, there are plenty. If you are on restricted by budget constrains give me a call I have plenty of gear that will test your commitment to the hobby. Good stuff however. Jim |
It all matters that is why they call it a system . The room dictates the application of the system mostly the speakers . Smaller rooms are harder to get right with full range speakers that's why small book shelf speakers sound good in smaller rooms . If you want your cake and eat it too look into distributed bass . |
So the most important thing, by far, is the power cord. It's got to be long enough to reach the outlet. Once that's out of the way, I happen to think the room is critical. I moved last year and did not change gear at all. As terrific as my system was in my old place, and it was, I think my room is better now and my system just floors me now even more than it did before. After the room, I know it's popular to say it's the source that counts, but I am not really on board with that. I think the source and the speakers are of equal significance. Next comes the preamp and then the amp. I'm not going to get into the entire cable debate, though I do believe cables matter. And by that, I mean all cables- power cords, interconnects, speaker cable and digital cable. I am a fan of OCC cables and shielded power cords. YMMV. |
another issue is that DAC design is advancing fairly rapidly, esp. compared to loudspeakers engineers seem to be focusing on noise in DACs, which can cause jitter - not just alter DR and the noise floor many are saying that noise is being injected from circuits inside as well as outside the DAC assuming they are at least partly correct, one is likely to have any DAC purchased be a temporary expedient, so buy accordingly I'd also check out newly marketed DACs that advertise designs with low noise or high noise immunity NO affiliations with any manfs., dealers, etc. - maybe a few scientists who study sound perception |
joejoe, Totally agree. I also trust my ears. Newer and more expensive is not equivalent to better sound. In high-end audio industry the prices are horribly inflated and it`s quite common that some older vintage or cheaper gear puts today's mega-dollar machines into shame. ........But it`s impossible to design a top end SOTA equipment for budget of $250 and expect it to sound as good as the best costing 100 or even 10 times as much. I know that some 20k machines are bettered by 2k machine but not $250. In my view today it`s just not physically possible. |
czarivey, Alesis Masterlink may be good and the term "close" is subjective but your statement is astounding. Sorry to say but such complicated $250 Recorder/DAC has it`s budget that only allows the cheapest parts to be used. It sure may be extremely well engineered but it has it`s limits because of the budget. |
plutos, bcoz it's also great analog preamp AND headphone amp. Alesis Masterlink is indeed super good. Anyways, back to the original topic: Refer to this tune when want to really find out the most important PART of system! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hrPADgu8xs |
randy-11"The DAC is easy to get good sound from at a few hundred dollars and there is no need to spend $35,000 on it." I guess I am in the wring business then! I recently demonstrated my DAC to a person who had a well known company that builds a inexpensive DAC around $1K. You know the rest. The guy had Magico speakers in his system. He sold his DAC within 30 seconds because it could not compete with the sound he heard from my DAC. Same goes for a $5K DAC owner, and a $18K DAC owner. He played the Lou Reed famous song take a walk on the wild side. His DAC did not get the spacing, soundstage, tone, etc., correct and when the backing vocals came on, they switch from left to right speakers, his DAC barely showed the switch. With my DAC it was like they walked across the room, faded out in the left speaker, came on to the right speaker, and then the vocals got louder and faded away with decay that his DAC could not reproduce. With my DAC you could hear the number of persons singing in the backround, with his just a flat wall of sound, no dimension, hard sounding, no emotion. You cannot make statements like this unless you have really heard what a really good DAC can do for a system. With the $1K DAC the system sounded like every other mid-fi system I have heard even with $30K speakers. Just saying - Happy Listening. |
Categorizing importance and quality of components is a good idea because some things are more important than others, and because improvements in some things for a given cost make a larger SQ improvement than other things. If you built your own listening room (properly) and spent over $25,000 on speakers you are in a different category than someone who spent $850 on speakers. |
The "Chairman" of anybody's system is indeed media: It could be fantastically recorded mostly classical, jazz, folk or it could be poorly recorded rock or combination of both One way or the other, no tunes to play -- no need for other components unless you're stuck to your tuner or playing your guitar via microphone :) To that owned recorded media, the listener should than take first most important step to find synergy with system that one is about to build of course having budget in mind weather it's limited or not (just like in case with ebm :-) Categorizing importance and quality of components is deep error IMHO, because at least each an every separate component has dedicated function. Finding components in proper synergy within the budget is far more important PART than having single component as most or least important part of your system. Therefore the sound system that pleases you have importance of ALL components logically EQUAL unless you wish to literally define amplification components as secondary importance. You can therefore connect your $5k speakers directly to the output of your CD player with no volume control, because it ain't gonna be to loud anyways :-) Also in case with analogue -- not even phonostage or even speakers important(you may logically assume) -- just position your ear as close as possible to the needle or lean it firmly against the stand and you will be able to hear tracks. Why not? At least we will have golden ears evidence haha ! :-) |
It should be obvious to anyone with ANY electronics knowledge at all, that not all parts are critical. The critical parts are the transducers, e.g. speakers and cartridge if analog. This why the advice to put half of the budget into speakers is both common and good. Room treatments are also critical, but are not electronic - they will require some knowledge of acoustics. The amp needs to be able to drive the speakers, which can be difficult if they are highly reactive or require high current delivery. The pre-amp is a control center and at the high end can enhance certain euphonic characteristics (tubiness). The DAC is easy to get good sound from at a few hundred dollars and there is no need to spend $35,000 on it. But $35,000 spent on speakers can be very worthwhile -- unless you buy Magneplanars for $6,000 and like their advantages over their dis-avantages. |
plutos one pair of transformers in the preamp. As good as the preamp is, the DAC made more of a difference in every system we installed it. In some instances it was night and day. We were stunned at that - the light was off and then the light was on kind of difference. The sound of the DAC was transforming no matter what speakers, preamp, amp or cables. Same goes for our phono stage. Happy Lisening. |
There are so many variables that this equation is unsolvable. Different - expectancy, taste, room etc. etc. etc......................... But I suppose that most will agree that there are no point to buy an expensive source if you have a mediocre preamp. My suggestion is to start building your system from speakers to up. |
I think everything is important. In my system, the least expensive component is my Revel M106 speakers. Computer modeling, material advances, and inexpensive overseas manufacturing has dropped the price of quality speakers compared to high end electronics. My DAC, Pre, amp, and Sub all cost over $2k each, and the system sounds phenomenal to me. Minor changes upstream are very obvious. If I change 1 of the 3 sets of tubes in the preamp, it's noticable. If my amp isn't warmed up, it's noticable. If Tidal turns my chromecast volume down a single notch, I can hear the compression. I think people are putting WAY too much importance on the speakers, because you can get terrific speakers for $1500 or less, that use the same drivers as $5000 speakers. |
I guess there are many different opinions on this topic! I agree with the above well described weakest link theory. But to my logic and ears, speakers will impart the biggest personality influence on sound quality. Yes, lousy room acoustics, poor recording and distorted amplification will ruin sound quality and it goes without saying that these weak links must be removed in order to have even decent sound. With none of the weak links present, a change of speakers will have the biggest impact in sound. Spending extreme sums on cables, cords and other minor influences prior to getting speakers, room and source right is a fool’s folly propagated by ultra high end manufacturers who make serious profits. Speakers and room, if done right, are unfortunately the most expensive part of the equation requiring the most time, money, effort and wife acceptance. Cables and cords, to my obviously tone deaf ears, don’t make much difference relative to the cost. I have heard great speakers with average electronics and have been wowed but have been underwhelmed by great electronics paired with sub par speakers. Speakers.....60% room............20% source/music/ amp.....15% all else.........5% Estimated margin of error 5% depending on component combinations and sound preferences. The above is my ball park assessment of importance relative to achieving sound quality. I too cringe when I see a virtual system with a large fortune spent on components with no attention paid to room, furniture and acoustics. Take a look at one celebrity’s $500k system with marble floors, glass walls and no acoustic treatments (he must have limited upper end hearing if he thinks that echo chamber sounds right). In the end, to each his own. |
bigkids, Of course, experiences will vary because they depend on so many different things. There`s no absolute truth. Different people, different experiences. I suspect that you`re premap sounds remarkably good. TVC for volume and no caps in the signal path. This can`t be bad :=)) BTW. Did you use single or double transformer per channel? |
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plutos I agree that it all starts from a source, but if preamp is not able to deliver it without veiling and distorting the signal, the source makes no big difference. I would disagree with that statement. Again, I have built various preamps, amps, DAC's etc. I also have repaired components for over 25 years. Any preamp that I have repaired goes into my system just to make sure it works as it should. I hear the differences in them but having what I consider is one of the best sources, you can hear what my source does without question. Each preamp has a sound but they do allow the source to flow though without an issue. The sound only gets better with better preamps. Someone mentioned TVC, yep I use one in my active preamp that has no caps in the signal path. The amps make a difference but overall the source IMO again from building my own components does not have the degree of sound improvement compared to the source. The speakers improve the sound but the source still has the most effect on the sound. Happy Listening! |
I respectfully disagree. Of course, it is critical that amp works well with your speakers and is powerful enough to properly control them, but the rest will not fall into place with this. Maybe I never had any bad amps in my system, but in my experience the difference between (rightly chosen) amps is smaller than a difference between preamps and source components. |
