I had the original version of Carver's Sonic Hologram, in his C-4000 preamp (ca. 1979), and later the revised version, in the C-9 Sonic Hologram Generator. The revised version had a slightly less critical sweet spot, and somewhat better sound quality. Both had audible side-effects, though, that could be immediately perceived on high quality recordings, in a good quality system, by switching the hologram function on and off. Mainly a general reduction in clarity, across the spectrum, and on the first version some problems in the bass region. On mediocre recordings those issues tended to be less bothersome than on high quality recordings.
When I eventually moved from solid state to tube-based power amplification I found that the increased dimensionality that tube power amps commonly provide (I have no idea why) resulted in imaging that approached what the Sonic Hologram accomplished, at least on most recordings, while avoiding its side-effects and providing better sound quality. During the 1990s I therefore removed the C-9 from my system, the C-4000 having been sold many years earlier.
Regards,
-- Al |
I should clarify that you are not lowering distortion by running cable in series, per se, unless you splice in special "tweaks" from Bybee, Combak, Oyaide, etc. This is what I have done all along the line -- two or three cables with "tweaks" spliced in between. You need to do a lot of experimenting to see what combinations work best. Some combinations will actually degrade the sound rather than improve it. If you change the order of the cables and "tweaks" you may come up with a combination that gives you a pleasant surprise. |
Ebm,
I agree, of course. It's very interesting because the common wisdom is that you buy a pair of interconnects and a pair of speaker cables, you connect your power conditioner and components with a single power cord, and away you go. The common wisdom is that if you want to improve the sound you change to a different cable brand or you mix and match brands and you try tweaking a bit.
My experience is that this approach may improve the sound somewhat but it will never get you to a much higher level -- a level that you may be able to attain if you think differently about your system and start to experiment with putting your cabling in series.
The way I came upon this idea was when I had two pair of excellent interconnects from two different companies -- each with a set of excellent non-identical attributes -- and I was trying to figure out which pair of interconnects to sell off. Then it came to me. Maybe I did not need to compromise. Maybe I could combine the sonic attributes of both cables by figuring out a way to connect both of them to my system.
Since both pairs were balanced cables I simply plugged one into the other and connected them to the system. The sound was awful. Then I reversed the two cables and BINGO!! I hit the jackpot. This is easy to experiment with if you have two good-quality XLR interconnects at home with one in the closet. Connect them and see what happens. It may work, but it may not. This is a story of trial and error. There is no way of telling what the results will sound like with any two or three cables in series until you connect them and power up. Give it a go. You may be pleasantly surprised. |
Wow how interesting Dude!! |
Mapman,
This is the key, I believe. Distortion in the AC ruins the sound. With each incremental cleansing of the AC the CD can reveal more of what's there but is otherwise hidden. In my experience, you cannot clean the AC in one stage or even in a handful of stages. It takes a heck of a lot of stages to make significant inroads. |
Also no doubt your ears being truly tuned in to what is happening during playback helps. Lots od ways to acnieve that but low stress/a state of true relaxation helps |
No doubt anything that truly lowers distortion helps. |
Jeffreybowman2k,
Sorry, I don't get it. |
Jeffreybowman2k,
There are no power strips in my system. Please see the posting in this thread with the details about how I run cables in series. |
Akg_ca,
Another way of looking at holography is to look it the same way we look other sonic parameters -- such as low level detail, for example. We would never say "we instantly know it" when it's there. There really is no "it". There are degrees of low level detail that make for more or less refined sound. The same principle applies to many sonic parameters. |
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Akg_ca,
You stated, "Happily, when that 3-D holographic soundstage is there, we all see it immediately; we instantly know it ..."
Actually, with my approach you may discover there are many different levels of holographic sound. Higher levels can be attained by making incremental improvements to the system. This takes time and effort, but for me it has been more than worth the time and effort taken.
Mountainsong,
Yes, if you look at it that way, it takes a lot of "painstaking" work to reach a higher level. In a sense, it's like everything good in life. No pain, no gain. But, in the audio world, I would not use the word "pain" to describe this process. For me, taking "pains" with my system is a labor of love. |
09-14-12: Rcprince
I'm sorry, but you lost me. How do you run interconnects and power cords in series? I think he means that he is using power strips. |
Anybody here heard of the Bedini Analog Vector Spacial Processor? Unlike Carver's effort, this thing maintains a 3D image while while you walk around the room. I've never listened to one. But I just acquired one. They are very rare but I believe Bedini is back into manufacturing and has refurbished ones available and maybe new ones as well. Trademark logo is Bedini B.A.S.E.. They were mainly used in recording studios. The one I have seems to be a second iteration as it looks a little different from the photos I've seen. But I don't know how to hook it up. 3 unlabeled sets of RCAs close together and one unlabeled set on the far right. I've been in contact with Bedini but no response as yet. |
The problem with the plug-and-play approach -- one power cord at each stage, one set of interconnects, one pair of speaker wires -- is that this approach will only get you to an initial stage of of holography, at best -- even if you add special "effects" with Synergistic Research Galileo interconnect and speaker cells -- all the advertising hype notwithstanding (turning ordinary cables into state-of-the-art, blacker yet backgrounds, etc.).
It is only when you experiment in novel ways, and come up with a significant incremental improvement in the sound, that you realize there is more that can be done to improve the sound and that greater improvements come with each successful incremental improvement. This approach impelled me to keep going to reach the highest possible level within my budget. I could not be happier with the results. The sound of my system far exceeds what I could have imagined when I began the journey. |
Ivan_nosnibor,
You stated, "Should they ever wish for more, they have only to return to meaningfully removing yet more of the distortions, wherever in the system that may turn out to be."
I think this is the key to the problem. You have hit the nail on the head, IMO. One has to reduce distortions in the system, little by little. I have been doing this incrementally with my system. One cannot expect a quantum leap with any single improvement -- even if the improvement has the word "quantum" in its description. I have made upwards of 40 incremental improvements to my system. Some of these improvements made a surprising difference. I can count perhaps 20 improvements that were quite remarkable on an individual basis. Others were more modest. When you add them all up this amounts to a staggering result -- a stunning improvement in the sound. This does not include the addition of the isolation transformer and power regenerator which were a quantum leap for my system. |
Holography is a story of increments. There are many stages in the process. Please read below. Each increment has improved the holographic imaging. Some increments have had a bigger impact on the sound than others. Holography goes hand-in-hand with continuity.
Onhwy61, here's my system -- via cables in series at each stage. Listing everything would be too complex -- and confusing. I give a general idea below.
FRONT END BEFORE COMPONENTS
1. TESLA Plex SE receptacle in series with one more TESLA Plex receptacle.
2. Medical grade isolation transformer (rated at 1380VA).
3. Monarchy AC regenerator for DAC and transport.
4. Bybee Stealth power conditioner.
5. Synergistic Research Power Cell 10SE MKII power conditioner.
COMPONENTS
1. Marantz PM 15 integrated amplifier -- the original 1993 version from Japan.
2. AMR DP-777 tube DAC.
3. PS Audio PerfectWave Transport.
4. Joseph Audio Pulsar monitor speakers.
Wiring and tweaks are too numerous to mention in detail. In series, before the component stage, there are 5 levels of Bybee Quantum AC Chargers and 3 levels of Bybee Ultra power cords. The series is completed using Supra LoRad with Oyaide plugs and IECs (with burn-in adapters). This is before the system reaches the Bybee Stealth power conditioner. All components are plugged into the Bybee Stealth.
In series, there are many levels after the Bybee Stealth power conditioner including power cords, digital cables, interconnects and speaker cables. For example, there are 5 levels on the interconnects (balanced) and 6 levels on the speaker cables. This includes cables and tweaks. I use cables from six different companies -- HiDiamond, Synergistic Research, Bybee, Cardas, ASI Liveline and Supra (LoRad only).
There are many tweaks in my system. Each one has been carefully chosen -- and carefully placed in the system -- to maximize its sonic attributes. I use tweaks from eight different companies, the most significant and numerous being Bybee.
Mapman, in my system, speaker distance from walls has little effect on the holography. Our house is being remodeled. Until the work is complete I am in quarters that are less than ideal with the left speaker one foot from the left wall and 2 feet from the back wall. The right speaker is two feet from the back wall and four feet from the right wall. There is little effect on the sound coming from the left speaker. The left wall disappears, as does the back wall. The sound may open up even more when there is no left wall.
Mapman, recordings made to sound 3-D make a big difference in my system. But there is a great measure of holography in my system even with old recordings that are not made for 3-D. The more refined my system has become the more astonished I have been when listening to some of these old recordings. I use many old recordings as reference for this very purpose. Oscar Peterson, The Sound of the Trio, is one of my favorites. It was recorded Live in 1961 at The London House in Chicago.
Rcprince,
Creating a series -- it's really quite easy. The power cords are run in series using a burn-in AC adapter from VH audio. Balanced cables are simply daisy-chained. Speakers cables use special connectors from Supra as well as Synergistic Research Galileo speaker cells.
Marakanetz,
Before I improved my system I had the same reaction. Many recordings that use to sound "like crap" now sound terrific after all the system improvements. Holography emerges. There is a lot of hidden information on stereo recordings -- even old recordings. But most systems cannot extract this information. The more refined my system has become the more of this information it has been able to extract.
Eldartford,
In my system you can sit or stand almost anywhere in the room. The off-axis rendering is astonishing.
Mapman, I have the phase inverted on the AMR. This gives a better rendering of recordings across the board. |
If I remember Carver's scheme...
Your left ear hears the right speaker slightly delayed because your left ear is further from the right speaker.
So, add to the left signal a delayed and inverted right signal to cancel out right speaker sound to the left ear. Similar for the right ear. |
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Eldartford, you're still around? Good! ...Thought you drug up, along with "Shadorne", quite awhile ago.
Oh, yeah... I fully agree with Mapman's recipe!
A "well-engineered" recording, played through even the modest of systems, can/will sound amazing! Even in most automobiles I've rented over the years (mid-sized) with factory installations, while wearing out the FM radio's 'scan' button from ADD, I lock on WPR/NPR stations when they're playing 15-30 seconds worth of various well-recorded filler instrumental passages between topic segments. "WHOA!!!" It stands out that remarkably in comparison to everything else I "sample" while commuting. Uhhh, where was I going with this? Oh, yeah... recording, recording, recording!
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"Remember Carver's "Holographic" preamp."
Yes, I still have one as a spare though currently on the fritz needing a repair.
It played some l/r phase tricks to increase holography (not create it from scratch) and worked best for small monitors or other more directional designs. It also had some minor tonal side effects.
It worked as described with my small Triangle monitors. Less so for Magnepans when I had them, and virtually no positive effect with my more omni OHM Walsh speakers.
Also in the recipe I think I misstated the setup requirement somewhat. As I recall, in most rooms, reflected sound must ideally travel at least 10 feet or so further than the direct sound to reach your ears at the right time for best 3-d/holographic results. |
Remember Carver's "Holographic" preamp. It did some fancy processing of the two stereo signals and actually did yield an astonishing three dimensional sonic image. Only trouble was that your head needed to be in one certain location, and if you moved the effect was lost. |
"No matter how good quality your gear and wires are if the RECORDING isn't done properly from the beginning you can't mine gold out of piece of cwap."
Did you say cwap you wascally wabbit? |
It might help if you actually listed your system. |
OMG, i did not know that to achieve audio nirvana, can turn so painful.... |
No matter how good quality your gear and wires are if the RECORDING isn't done properly from the beginning you can't mine gold out of piece of cwap. |
2x shorter cable is 2x better cable. |
QUOTE: "... Hmm, my experience is it is not all that complicated. Recipe: 1) good quality gear.."
Mapman nailed it : Short & sweet.
That "gear" includes the hardware, speakers and cables that actually "work" with each other to create that expansive soundstage that extends well past the walls L-R and deep front-to-back as the speakers, as point sources, simply disappear. Once you get it, the music is now engaging and "floats" even well off-axis.
The problem is that most of the available kit compendium is an alchemy that lacks that synergy to create it.
Regrettabbly we all know that frequently one man's steak is fare that tastes like **** to the next guy. (particularly in this forum) . Happily, when that 3-D holographic soundstage is there, we all see it immediately; we instantly know it; and all those personal and subjective differences vanish and the listener is simply "engaged" in the music. |
I'm sorry, but you lost me. How do you run interconnects and power cords in series?
Personally, I have found Mapman's recipe to be pretty good. |
Hmm, my experience is it is not all that complicated.
REcipe:
1) good quality gear
2) speaker placement away from walls(reflections travel a minimum 2X the distance of direct sound in order for proper timing/delivery of the recording in a 3-d/holographic manner). There is material available on teh internet last I checked that goes into this in more detail.
3) A recording made to sound 3-dimensional/holographic, ie recording technique results in sufficient 3-d/holographic sonic queues being captured in the recording. Many small ensemble jazz recordings are recorded this way. "Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis is one of the best known. Mapleshade and related labels tend to focus on this aspect of the recording. Dorian is another label that does it well as does most Mercury Living Presence recordings. It occurs in most modern pop rocj recordings to some extent as well but varies widely from recording to recording. |
Rlwainwright,
If you had read closely you would have seen that I was talking about holographic sound in my comments about cables. |
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You need to get outside more, dude. Using cables and such as "tone controls" is not the best way to achieve sonic nirvana. IMHO, of course...
-RW- |
