What Does Holographic Sound Like?

I should clarify that you are not lowering distortion by running cable in series, per se, unless you splice in special "tweaks" from Bybee, Combak, Oyaide, etc. This is what I have done all along the line -- two or three cables with "tweaks" spliced in between. You need to do a lot of experimenting to see what combinations work best. Some combinations will actually degrade the sound rather than improve it. If you change the order of the cables and "tweaks" you may come up with a combination that gives you a pleasant surprise.

The problem with the plug-and-play approach -- one power cord at each stage, one set of interconnects, one pair of speaker wires -- is that this approach will only get you to an initial stage of of holography, at best -- even if you add special "effects" with Synergistic Research Galileo interconnect and speaker cells -- all the advertising hype notwithstanding (turning ordinary cables into state-of-the-art, blacker yet backgrounds, etc.).

It is only when you experiment in novel ways, and come up with a significant incremental improvement in the sound, that you realize there is more that can be done to improve the sound and that greater improvements come with each successful incremental improvement. This approach impelled me to keep going to reach the highest possible level within my budget. I could not be happier with the results. The sound of my system far exceeds what I could have imagined when I began the journey.

Ivan_nosnibor,
You stated, "Should they ever wish for more, they have only to return to meaningfully removing yet more of the distortions, wherever in the system that may turn out to be."

I think this is the key to the problem. You have hit the nail on the head, IMO. One has to reduce distortions in the system, little by little. I have been doing this incrementally with my system. One cannot expect a quantum leap with any single improvement -- even if the improvement has the word "quantum" in its description. I have made upwards of 40 incremental improvements to my system. Some of these improvements made a surprising difference. I can count perhaps 20 improvements that were quite remarkable on an individual basis. Others were more modest. When you add them all up this amounts to a staggering result -- a stunning improvement in the sound. This does not include the addition of the isolation transformer and power regenerator which were a quantum leap for my system.

Holography is a story of increments. There are many stages in the process. Please read below. Each increment has improved the holographic imaging. Some increments have had a bigger impact on the sound than others. Holography goes hand-in-hand with continuity.

Onhwy61, here's my system -- via cables in series at each stage. Listing everything would be too complex -- and confusing. I give a general idea below.

FRONT END BEFORE COMPONENTS

1. TESLA Plex SE receptacle in series with one more TESLA Plex receptacle.
2. Medical grade isolation transformer (rated at 1380VA).
3. Monarchy AC regenerator for DAC and transport.
4. Bybee Stealth power conditioner.
5. Synergistic Research Power Cell 10SE MKII power conditioner.

COMPONENTS

1. Marantz PM 15 integrated amplifier -- the original 1993 version from Japan.
2. AMR DP-777 tube DAC.
3. PS Audio PerfectWave Transport.
4. Joseph Audio Pulsar monitor speakers.

Wiring and tweaks are too numerous to mention in detail. In series, before the component stage, there are 5 levels of Bybee Quantum AC Chargers and 3 levels of Bybee Ultra power cords. The series is completed using Supra LoRad with Oyaide plugs and IECs (with burn-in adapters). This is before the system reaches the Bybee Stealth power conditioner. All components are plugged into the Bybee Stealth.

In series, there are many levels after the Bybee Stealth power conditioner including power cords, digital cables, interconnects and speaker cables. For example, there are 5 levels on the interconnects (balanced) and 6 levels on the speaker cables. This includes cables and tweaks. I use cables from six different companies -- HiDiamond, Synergistic Research, Bybee, Cardas, ASI Liveline and Supra (LoRad only).

There are many tweaks in my system. Each one has been carefully chosen -- and carefully placed in the system -- to maximize its sonic attributes. I use tweaks from eight different companies, the most significant and numerous being Bybee.

Mapman, in my system, speaker distance from walls has little effect on the holography. Our house is being remodeled. Until the work is complete I am in quarters that are less than ideal with the left speaker one foot from the left wall and 2 feet from the back wall. The right speaker is two feet from the back wall and four feet from the right wall. There is little effect on the sound coming from the left speaker. The left wall disappears, as does the back wall. The sound may open up even more when there is no left wall.

Mapman, recordings made to sound 3-D make a big difference in my system. But there is a great measure of holography in my system even with old recordings that are not made for 3-D. The more refined my system has become the more astonished I have been when listening to some of these old recordings. I use many old recordings as reference for this very purpose. Oscar Peterson, The Sound of the Trio, is one of my favorites. It was recorded Live in 1961 at The London House in Chicago.

Rcprince,
Creating a series -- it's really quite easy. The power cords are run in series using a burn-in AC adapter from VH audio. Balanced cables are simply daisy-chained. Speakers cables use special connectors from Supra as well as Synergistic Research Galileo speaker cells.

Marakanetz,
Before I improved my system I had the same reaction. Many recordings that use to sound "like crap" now sound terrific after all the system improvements. Holography emerges. There is a lot of hidden information on stereo recordings -- even old recordings. But most systems cannot extract this information. The more refined my system has become the more of this information it has been able to extract.

Eldartford,
In my system you can sit or stand almost anywhere in the room. The off-axis rendering is astonishing.

Mapman, I have the phase inverted on the AMR. This gives a better rendering of recordings across the board.

Rlwainwright,
If you had read closely you would have seen that I was talking about holographic sound in my comments about cables.

Jeffreybowman2k,
There are no power strips in my system. Please see the posting in this thread with the details about how I run cables in series.

Akg_ca,
Another way of looking at holography is to look it the same way we look other sonic parameters -- such as low level detail, for example. We would never say "we instantly know it" when it's there. There really is no "it". There are degrees of low level detail that make for more or less refined sound. The same principle applies to many sonic parameters.

Akg_ca,
You stated, "Happily, when that 3-D holographic soundstage is there, we all see it immediately; we instantly know it ..."

Actually, with my approach you may discover there are many different levels of holographic sound. Higher levels can be attained by making incremental improvements to the system. This takes time and effort, but for me it has been more than worth the time and effort taken.

Mountainsong,
Yes, if you look at it that way, it takes a lot of "painstaking" work to reach a higher level. In a sense, it's like everything good in life. No pain, no gain. But, in the audio world, I would not use the word "pain" to describe this process. For me, taking "pains" with my system is a labor of love.

Orpheus10,
What have you done since you left Carver behind to attain holography in your system? Would you care to share some of this here? As you so rightly observe, holography -- at a sufficiently high level -- really brings the music alive and makes it so enjoyable.

I would love to have heard the systems you are referring to. I do my auditioning in Hong Kong, Bangkok and Singapore. The Adelphi 1 Audio Mall in Singapore is the all-in-one audio emporium that I enjoy best of all.

Almarg,
This is an interesting observation about tube amps. I am thinking seriously about moving to a tube amp sometime in the future -- if and when I can afford it.

Geoffkait,
You stated, "... the velocity of electrons through audio cables, the drift velocity, is actually extremely slow ...". Of course, you are completely correct. My later post where I correct my misstatement was not allowed -- or is just late in being posted here.

You also stated, "On the other hand, the electromagnetic wave - the musical signal travelling through audio cables - travels at a high percentage of the speed of light." You are completely correct. Close to the speed of light. This is what I was referring to -- the signal, not the electrons themselves, which my later post explains (not yet appearing here).

You stated "I honestly don't know where Sabai falls." Frankly, I don't care where I "fall". Whoever wants to pigeon-hole me can go right ahead.

Ebm,
I agree, of course. It's very interesting because the common wisdom is that you buy a pair of interconnects and a pair of speaker cables, you connect your power conditioner and components with a single power cord, and away you go. The common wisdom is that if you want to improve the sound you change to a different cable brand or you mix and match brands and you try tweaking a bit.

My experience is that this approach may improve the sound somewhat but it will never get you to a much higher level -- a level that you may be able to attain if you think differently about your system and start to experiment with putting your cabling in series.

The way I came upon this idea was when I had two pair of excellent interconnects from two different companies -- each with a set of excellent non-identical attributes -- and I was trying to figure out which pair of interconnects to sell off. Then it came to me. Maybe I did not need to compromise. Maybe I could combine the sonic attributes of both cables by figuring out a way to connect both of them to my system.

Since both pairs were balanced cables I simply plugged one into the other and connected them to the system. The sound was awful. Then I reversed the two cables and BINGO!! I hit the jackpot. This is easy to experiment with if you have two good-quality XLR interconnects at home with one in the closet. Connect them and see what happens. It may work, but it may not. This is a story of trial and error. There is no way of telling what the results will sound like with any two or three cables in series until you connect them and power up. Give it a go. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Mapman,
This is the key, I believe. Distortion in the AC ruins the sound. With each incremental cleansing of the AC the CD can reveal more of what's there but is otherwise hidden. In my experience, you cannot clean the AC in one stage or even in a handful of stages. It takes a heck of a lot of stages to make significant inroads.

Jeffreybowman2k,
Sorry, I don't get it.

I think I got it. You mean only one post at a time? I don't see any problem with more than one.

Onhwy61,
There are 3 interconnects plus a Bybee product and a Combax product. That makes 5 levels. There are 3 speaker cables plus two Bybee products and one Synergistic Research product. That makes six levels.

Almarg,
Since you have no experience with this and since you have not heard my system -- which would certainly convince you -- there is only one thing you can do, and that is to speculate. This is totally understandable. There is no way for anyone to understand this process unless they start to experiment personally with series and parallel cabling. And it is understandable that this will not be a viable option for most people. It takes a lot of work and a lot of money to do this -- and the inclination to do something completely different.

Orpheus10,
You understand exactly what I'm talking about -- being able to reach out and touch vocalists and instrumentalists. It is that feeling of immediacy and aliveness that makes this unique. But you seem to have achieved this level of holography at a much lower cost than me with the Carver, where I have used cables and "tweaks". I have no experience with Carver products but I have read about them. Do you still have your unit or are you now achieving your holographic effect in another way? I am not clear on this from your post because you state that your experiences have been the same as mine.

There is no way I could ever go back to the "old way" of doing things. If I take even one element out of the system I have to put it right back. I will be adding three new items in the next few months to see if I can get the sound to an even higher level -- without breaking the bank.

My wife doesn't understand audio prices -- to put it mildly -- so I just make a joke of things and we let it go at that. She runs the house. I run the office/listening room. Division of labor works well in our home.

Orpheus10,
I have read that, with Carver products, you have to sit in a sweet spot or you do not experience the effect. If this is true then it is very different from the holographic effect I experience in my system. You can sit virtually anywhere in my room and the experience is still holographic with no skewing of the sound due your listening position.

Onhwy61,
There is no inside joke here. Everything is on the table. Those who don't understand -- not my problem. Their loss. I am not selling anything to anyone. I have nothing to sell. I'm not in the audio business or connected to anyone in the audio business. I'm only connected to the music.

This has indeed been a painstaking process, but a labor of love nonetheless. If I take even one element out of the system I have to put it back right away. There is no going back to the old way of doing things. Yes, getting really good sound quality takes an awful lot of work. Everything really good in my life has come with really hard work.

Douglas_schroeder,

Thank you for your kind post. It is much appreciated. You have the kind of open mind that I esteem. I think you would be stunned if you sat down and listened to my system. I was brought up as a classical pianist from the age of seven. I graduated from the Conservatory of Music. Music is a passion for me -- not a hobby. I believe you sensed this from reading my OP.

Thanks for letting me know about this joke. I had no idea. It will be very easy for me to ignore these folks. I am of another generation and am not familiar with this kind of "inside joke". I could not care less. I’m not too old to appreciate good music and to recognize what my ears tell me. My hearing is very acute. I can still hear 16,000Hz.

I agree. Those who laugh at this are missing out. Daisy-chaining is not totally unknown in high end audio, by the way, although it is unknown with cables. I found a couple of threads on other sites about daisy-chaining power conditioners + isolation transformers + power regenerators. The posters gave me some ideas that I found were spot on for my own system -- how to get the best effects when using these front-end components. I have four of these components in series in my front end. I could never go back to having only one or two of these elements in my front end. The combined result with all four in my system has been nothing short of stunning.

I also used to feel that the shortest path must be the best way -- before I started experimenting with cables in series. I think you will change your mind very quickly once you start experimenting with series cabling. With reference to the shortest path, I think you have already experienced what I am talking about, regarding your digital cable experience. I have found that detail and definition are actually enhanced -- as well as sound stage and continuity -- when you have the right synergy with series cabling. This is totally counter to what one would expect and I have no explanation for it.

But I can speculate. Electrons travel awfully fast through cables. And as they travel through a series of cables they are being organized in a unique way through each unique cable -- and through each unique "tweak". It is the combined effects of this multiple-stage organizing of electrons that produce very special results. This is where the word synergy enters the picture. From my way of thinking, having experienced this first-hand, the shortest path is irrelevant in the search for better sound through series cabling. There is virtually no difference in how long it takes for the current to pass through a short signal path versus a long signal path. And that time difference is not a deciding factor when it comes to the issue of sonic synergy. This is an issue that is cable-dependent and "tweak"-dependent -- not an issue that is "length of signal path"-dependent.

Like you, I also demand detail along with improved holography. I never sacrifice detail for the sake of improved imaging. There is no easier way to kill the sound than to take away the detail. In fact, I was looking for increased detail/definition by using cables in series and I have been pleasantly surprised with this very result.

In my opinion, you are not entirely right when you comment that it is virtually impossible to say which cable is doing what in the series. You can take out one cable at a time and reinsert each, one at a time, to find out what special properties each cable imparts to the series. This is how I discovered which position in each series is best for each cable. In the end, it is the synergy of the whole series that matters. There is no telling ahead of time how things will sound until you work with each cable and each “tweak” in each series to discover the best location for each of them.

Jack Bybee has kept me very busy finding novel ways to integrate his products into my system. Jack is the kind of innovative audio manufacturer I seek out. We all know how run-of-the-mill sounds. But if you want to reach a higher level you have to use a bit of imagination and a lot of cash to make it happen. If you don't succeed, OK -- nothing much lost. But if you do succeed you may be the happiest audio camper around – with some people scratching their heads, and some laughing about something they have no experience with.

Regarding searching for that single special cable, the closest I have come is HiDiamond. But I still use all HiDiamonds in my system (digital, interconnects, speaker cables, power cords) in series with other cables and “tweaks” for the best effect. If you could hear my system you would instantly know what I am talking about. Once you have started down the series-cabling path there is no going back because you realize that nothing is lost or sacrificed. No sonic parameter is compromised. On the contrary. Everything is enhanced -- and I am talking about not subtle -- when you come up with winning combinations. I agree with you about a big change. If I make a change to my system and I am sitting there scratching my head trying to hear if something has happened then forget it.

Your own experiment with cables in parallel is a good example of the mindset I am talking about – stepping outside the box. Regarding parallel cabling, I am actually running a small experiment at the moment with speaker cables in parallel. So far, so good. But, up till now, I have actually been running all my speaker cables in series.

As for guidelines about how to go about successful series cabling and tweaking, the process seems to favor at least one active cable in the series. If initial results are not favorable, reverse the series and connect up again. If you want to start experimenting with series cabling I would suggest using a Synergistic Research active XLR interconnect in series with another non-active XLR interconnect of your choice from a different company. Since it will be very hard to get hold of Bybee XLR Interconnect Quantum Purifiers to “tweak’ the series – only about 12 pairs were made (I have one pair) -- the MIC Enacom (from Combak Harmonix in Japan) may do well. This is an excellent item for improving the sound through the XLR interconnect path but it is an item that is very position-dependant in the series.

By the way, although I am retired I still run a small and very successful company (in the electronics business but not audio-related). My business is based on an invention whose development was greatly dependent on keeping an open mind about possibilities. Ever the experimenter, I have recently developed my own audio product – a proprietary RCA feed-back circuit that has become an indispensible part of my system. It has been tested on many high end professional systems and in every case it greatly enhanced holographic imaging. One high end shop wanted to purchase a set on the spot after taking the time to listen carefully to its attributes. But I could not part with my prototype. I am now compiling a list of interested reviewers and distributors who will be receiving this product for evaluation. Please let me know if you are interested in receiving a set for evaluation.

Regarding devices that are not in the signal path, I have found Shakti Hallographs very useful.

Your positive response to my OP is greatly appreciated.

Csontos,
Tell us a good joke. I got a great sense of humor. I love a good laugh.

Almarg,
You stated, "FWIW, the OP’s path is not one that I would personally follow. It suggests the possibility that a multitude of small inaccuracies were both originally present and subsequently introduced, which after a great deal of time and experimentation have been made to essentially cancel each other out. If I were not satisfied with the imaging/dimensionality/holography of my system, consistent with some of Onhwy61’s comments I would focus on speaker placement ..."

There were no "inaccuracies" present or introduced that "cancelled" each other out. With all due respect, frankly, I find this a very odd statement. Especially the idea of introducing inaccuracies and cancelling out. I have a problem wrapping my head around this one. It is a complete misconception. I am not talking about inaccuracies. I am talking about improving the holographic imaging and other parameters. There was nothing "inaccurate" about the sound before these improvements were made. The sound was as accurate as it could be at that time given the nature of the system that was then in place.

When you introduce a second power cord in series with a Bybee AC Purifier, for example, you do not introduce an "inaccuracy" into the system. If anything, the sound becomes more "accurate", if you care to put it that way, because some of the AC has been cleaned up. The end result of all the improvements is a much more "accurate" sound. If anything has been cancelled by this process it is only one thing -- the lack of earlier "accuracy" due to distortion caused by dirty AC.

Off-axis listening in the "new improved" system is phenomenal. You can sit or stand virtually anywhere in the room and hear the same holographic image.

Geoffkait,
To keep things simple, when referring to "in the signal path" I am talking about whatever is actually connected to the circuitry of the system.

Regarding electrons, of course I misstated this. I should have said the audio signal travels awfully fast through cables -- not the electrons. To clarify, the electrons themselves are not actually "flowing" at lightning speed when we talk about the flow of electricity. It is the energy flow via the electrons that creates the audio signal. While the actual speed of the electrons themselves is slow and their movement is characterized by more than one form of movement, the sound we hear actually travels very fast via the energy flow through the electrons. If we had to wait for the electrons themselves to arrive with that signal we would be very disappointed. Each modification of the signal path via cables and "tweaks" changes the signal flow via the electrons. I hope this clarifies how I see signal modification happening.

Geoffkait,
Sorry if I ascribed this to you in error. No worries. This is not a "problem area" for me -- for whoever wants to go there.

Douglas_schroeder,
Futility comes in all sizes and colors.

Csontos,
Regarding your competence to judge this matter on more than a "my-opinion" basis, please let us know how many Bybee products you have in your system and if you are running them in series with HiDiamond power cords, interconnects, digital cable and speaker cables and a equivalent line-up of Synergistic Research active cables.

Once you fill us in with the details of your system we will have a basis on which to judge if you have enough experience in this area to make competent judgments about the systems of others who are doing series cabling. Please give us the details of your system and your cabling.

What we're starting to see here is typical of many threads that begin to destruct when the "special" posters take over and do their thing. I would like to keep this thread going in the positive way it was started, if possible. Once the positive discussion is over and the thread is ready to be archived it should be allowed to arrive at the archive on its own -- not by sabotage. In the latter case interested posters back off because of all the flack in the air where they would normally be participating in a positive way.

If anyone has bones to pick with me I have no problem with that. They can start a special thread entitled "Sabai is a nut case" or "What rock did Sabai crawl out from under". These thread titles are only suggestions. You can make up your own.

Csontos,
With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Mapman,
Using only a power conditioner will not get you there. I have four elements in my front end and the addition of the isolation transformer and power regenerator made the biggest difference to the sound.

Mapman, you stated "Even if it turns out a particular gadget seems to work, why it does what it appears to do is still a mystery and the chances of similar results being repeated elsewhere in any kind of predictable manner is probably low." I use Bybee products throughout my system and the addition of each Bybee has given a predictably significant improvement to the sound.

Mapman,
Yes, cleaner power is definitely a prerequisite here. I heard two very expensive systems in Bangkok recently -- beautiful Tad speakers with Marantz amplification and the amazing all-Accuphase showroom. Both lacked basic AC cleaning that I consider minimal and it showed. They could have done so much better if they had paid attention to their front end, their cabling and their "tweaks". But that would not have made for a pretty showroom.

Mapman,
I have auditioned various MBL systems at the MBL showroom in Singapore on different occasions. MBL is in the Adelphi 1 Audio Mall. I brought my own reference CDs the last time I was there. My system sounds better that what I heard at MBL. But my system does have an omni-directional quality similar to MBL.

Newbee,
Regarding off axis listening, what one normally experiences in most systems is that when one moves outside the sweet spot or the sweet zone there is a loss of realism. The image that one hears in the sweet area does not carry over into the non-sweet area. So, other listeners will not have the same sonic experience outside "the zone" as those inside "the zone" have. With my system, you can move around the room and all the elements remain in place. It is quite uncanny. You can sit or stand virtually anywhere in the room and not feel the sonic image is diminished. You never get the feeling that you are outside "the zone" unless you are very close to one of the speakers or directly outside one of the speakers.

Newbee,
You are elucidating an important point -- the difference between stereo imaging and sonic holography. We are actually talking about a continuum here that starts with the most elementary stereo imaging that has little depth and where location of voices and instruments is imprecise and the images not well defined.

On the other end of the continuum is the most sophisticated holographic imaging one could imagine which would be represented by an incredible sense of 3-dimensionality that moves out from the speakers on all sides with exceptional depth, width and height where placement of voices and instruments is not only precise but also appears with a sense of realism, finesse and continuity that gives one the feeling of "being there". Of course, the other sonic parameters that are important to us all must be there, as well.

I do not think it is possible to reach the apex of sonic holography. I believe we are always working toward that idea. I have been working toward it with every improvement I have made to my system -- with a couple of improvements to go. But I have attained what I consider a high level of sonic holography in my system.

I have been working on room treatment as much as possible. The addition of the Shakti Hallographs has made a big difference in my room. But things are not ideal yet. I have the Synergistic Research ART but I do not have the space to mount everything properly at the moment. When we remodel the house everything will fall into place in a larger listening room

I believe most people who use single wiring throughout their system are unaware that holographic sound has virtually limitless gradations -- unless they have visited a showroom or listened to a friend's system where exceptional sound opened their ears and mind to something unimagined. In fact, most of the very high end showrooms I have had the pleasure to visit had a rather simple front end and rather simple cabling that undervalued the components they were displaying.

Most people build the cabling in their system by purchasing cables from one company or by mixing and matching cables from different companies. This is a process of adding a cable here, subtracting a cable there, a rather simple process where, if the audiophile is lucky, he or she may discover a really good addition to their system, for example, any of the HiDiamond cables or a Synergistic Research Hologram D power cord.

But few audiophiles that I know get into "tweaking" with inline products. None that I know do cabling in series and only two that I know do parallel cabling. Very few audiophiles daisy chain isolation transformers, power regenerators and power conditioners. So, it is understandable that the reaction of many to an unconventional approach to building a system using components and cables in series would be scratching the head and a good measure of disbelief.

Geoffkait,
I am not familiar with the Audio Pulse Model One. But you stated, "It was later on that I discovered how much information is actually buried in recordings, that even very large and expensive systems fail to reproduce, and what was required to extract that buried information for 2 channel stereo. The real ambient information was there all along, we just couldn't hear it!"

My system extracts an amazing amount of the ambient information you are referring to. The more I make changes that improve the system the more information is extracted and the more life-like and holographic the sound becomes. This is what has been so astonishing through this whole process.

Mapman,
I am using Joseph Audio Pulsar monitors. They are about 8 feet apart and my listening position is about 9 feet from each speaker. They are slightly toed-in. My ears are at tweeter level but I have them fired well to the outside of my ears.

Mapman,
Bybees products are the best bang for the buck in my system -- by far. They are absolutely phenomenal. I picked them all up for reasonable prices on Audiogon. I would highly recommend looking out for them. Be patient because they don't come up very often anymore -- and do a bit of research, in the meantime, on various forums where Bybee users have posted their observations. I have never heard of anyone who was disappointed with Bybee products.

I have upwards of 20 Bybee products in my system and upwards of 20 other "tweaks" in my system. My system would not exist without Bybee products. I recently added a pair of Combak Harmonix MIC Enacoms to the system and they are a wonderful product. But there is nothing I know of that could substitute for most of the Bybee products that I have in my system.

Douglas_schroeder,
I am also thankful to God every day for the blessings he has bestowed on me and my wife -- most importantly saving a life that was "hopelessly lost", according to modern medicine. The fact that he has enabled me to assemble an audio system that I never dreamed even existed is icing on the cake.

I am not familiar with the King Tower. I will Google it and have a look. What products are you referring to with transducer technology?

Douglas_schroeder and Mapman,
I agree completely that speakers are the most vital component when one is trying to create a "holographic system". I have owned many different brands but only the Joseph Audio Pulars have enabled the sound to reach this level. I am sure there are many other brands that would allow for the same level or an even higher level.

Bryoncunningham,
Great post. I loved it.

Mapman,
You stated, "Tweaks are what they are...tweaks." All tweaks are not created equal. If you had the pleasure of having Bybee "tweaks" in your system I think you would agree.

Orpheus10,
You asked, "How do you do that?" regarding hearing holographic sound outside the sweet spot. This seems to be a function of the amazing imaging that my system has. Once the voices and instruments have their own positions on the sound stage and the ambience of the venue is created by the system, the sound does not fundamentally change outside the sweet spot.

It is like attending a concert. There is no sweet spot in a concert hall. The music is rendered holographically in three dimensions so that when you are seated in a different position in the hall the sound just takes on a slightly different aspect but does not cease to be holographically three dimensional.

Of course, in my system, this also depends on the recording. It does not apply to old Beatles albums. The better the recording, the better this effect will be rendered. On better recordings the sound is stunning. As to "how" I do that, it is the daisy-chained front and and the series cabling that is producing the effect.

Chadeffect,
You stated, "Simplicity in my experience is the only way to get true organic and holographic sound." You don't seem to be leaving the door open to other possibilities that you have not yet experienced.

Mapman,
As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I visit Singapore I make a point of taking my reference CDs to the MBL showroom at the Adelphi 1 Audio Mall. They are very friendly and never rush me. The imaging and holography of my system consistently outranks the MBL systems I have auditioned. The imaging changes very subtly with movement to the left or right of axis -- there is no dramatic change -- as though one were moving to a different position in a concert hall. This is the only way I know how to give you a sense of what happens in my system. It is really uncanny. I have never heard anything like it before, and I have heard a lot of very expensive high end systems with many of the biggest names attached to the components and cabling.

Geoffkait, I have not tried the WA Quantum Chips or Belt products. I have only read about them. I have a two Kemp products in my system.

Douglas_schroeder,
I beg to differ. If there were a loss in detail with any item added to my system, that item would not be in my system. If the use of series cabling and "tweaks" were detracting from the sound I would have abandoned this approach long ago. I do not have the time or money to waste on things that do not work.

On the contrary, each and every cable and "tweak" in series adds significantly to the sound. There is no "trade off" or "loss" whatsoever. The facts are the exact opposite of what your comments state. Every series cable and "tweak" enhances the sound in my system. I am extremely meticulous in what I do. I test each addition to the system with my reference CDs. I look for even the slightest loss of detail or definition. These are CDs I have played thousands of times. They are chosen for their subtle qualities.

You stated that "It is impossible to keep interrupting/adding to the signal path and have an absolute increase in definition and detail." I'm sorry but you are absolutely incorrect on this point. If you travel to Asia please let me know and we'll have you over for a good home-cooked meal and a nice listening session. I have no doubt whatsoever that you will change your mind after you listen to my system.

According to your reasoning, if I have 20 Bybee products in my system there should be a noticeable degradation in the quality of the sound with each Bybee product added. But the opposite is actually what happens. I imagine this is similar to what Nordost claims for their Quantum Q4X. The positive effects are cumulative.

Mapman,
Your lighthearted comment missed the point completely when you stated, "Look, if continuous tweaking is what floats one boat or keeps one of trouble, then by all means have at it and tweak away." It is as though you think I an doing this just for fun. I am not in audio for fun. This is a serious pursuit for me. I do not waste time or money on things that do not work -- certainly not the time and money I have invested in my audio system. If you think that Jack Bybee's products are "esoteric tweaks" I imagine you have never heard what they can do for a good system. They are as fundamental in my system as components.

Douglas_schroeder,
I choose my reference CDs carefully for the complexity of ambient cues. Here are four of my favorite reference CDs. The Oscar Peterson recording is a live recording that is full of subtle ambient cues. The Johnny Rivers recording features live performances full of subtle ambient cues. The Boz Scaggs recording is a studio recording with many subtle ambient cues. The Joni Mitchell recording is a studio recording with many subtle ambient cues. Using these and many other reference CDs it is very easy to discern a degradation in the sound or a loss of detail/definition.

1. The Sound of the Trio, Oscar Peterson, recorded Live at The London House in Chicago in 1961 (remastered).

2. Johnny Rivers, Secret Agent Man, The Ultimate Johnny Rivers Anthology, 1964-2006 (remastered).

3. Boz Scaggs Hits! (remastered).

4. Joni Mitchell Court and Spark (remastered).

Geoffkait,
I have never heard an MBL system that sounded irritating.

Chadeffect,
You stated, "I wonder how many life times it would take to experience every possibility?" Who's talking about "every possibility"? Did I say that? If you read my post again you will see that I did not. I said "other possibilities". Please do not misquote me.

You stated, "Simplicity in my experience is the only way to get true organic and holographic sound." You just happen to be wrong about this. It is not the only way. I have experienced a very different way.

Mapman,
Please answer the following questions:

1. What "tweaks" do you have in your system?
2. Do you have any Bybee products in your system?
3. Do you do series or parallel cabling?

I like to talk about what I know from personal experience. That way I can stick to the facts. Your statements are opinions sticking to thin air. Here's why.

You stated, "you make it sound like foreever tweaking and adding stuff is a good strategy to follow." May I repeat a statement that I have stated here before but that you choose to ignore: I do not have the time and money to waste on things that do not work. I am a serious audiophile who has spent a lot of money to get the best possible sound in my system. I do not play with "strategies". What you call my "strategy" has given stunning results. Since you have no experience with my "strategy" you are only left with speculation because you have no personal experience here. Just hot air.

You stated, "I am not so certain". Certain about what? That a "strategy" you have no experience with may or may not work? This is like speculating about whether you will like vanilla when you have never even tasted it yet. More hot air.

You stated, "There is only so much that goes into a recording." How much "goes into" a recording? You have missed the point completely. More hot air. The cues hidden by dirty AC are unavailable until you clean up your AC. It is the simple physics of sound reproduction. This is not audio religion.

You stated, "It is not an infinite pool of undiscovered musical detail as many audiophiles might think." How big is the "pool" if it not "infinite"? How do you know how much is undiscovered if your system has not discovered it yet? More hot air.

You stated, "At some point, improvement in one area often negatively impacts others." Whatsat mean? More hot air. I have never heard a Bybee product that negates anything at all. I have upwards of 20 Bybee products in my system.

You stated, "Wherever it may be, there is a finite limit to how "good" something can sound." Whatsat mean? More hot air. How do you know how good "something can sound" if you have not tried doing the things I have done to make those "somethings" sound better?

You stated, "But I have trouble endorsing a lose strategy that is based on continuous tweaking." More hot air. Who is asking you to endorse anything? Certainly not me. A "lose strategy"? Whatsat mean? You have no idea what you are talking about. You have never entered the race and you already know who the loser is. You would do well to visit the race track with that special gift.

You stated, "Having no specific goal and always tweaking and changing is as viable as any." No specific goal? You mean getting the best possible sound from your system is not a specific goal? Do you meant hat you consider that a vague goal? More hot air.

You stated, "My opinion is that powr and IC tweaks are probably required to get to where I like to be. Honestly, I could care less after that especially about things that make no sense to me. Not to say all esoteric tweaks are without basis, some are." Do we need to read any further to know you are talking off the top of your head about "things that make no sense" and "esoteric tweaks ... without basis". Does that include Bybee products? What exactly is your experience with them. Please illuminate us with your specific comments in this regard. Hoe do you compare the Bybee Ultra power cords with the Bybee purifiers? More hot air.

You stated, "Its when one tweaks and spends just because they "think" they might be missing something and do not know what to do otherwise. At some point it becomes an obsession almost like a drug habit. That is the point at which I would become concerned if it were me." You are saying that I "think" I am missing something so I "tweak" because I don't know what to do to improve things. More hot air. You really have NO idea what you are talking about. And I mean NO idea. You are worried that I may have a serious tweaking "drug habit". I mean, what planet are you living on?

You stated, "There are many tweaks out there that may do little or nothing and have no negative effect on teh sound though teh effect on one's bank account might be significant. Or, not. It all depends." Well, this uninformed statement can be framed for future reference. More hot air. Please let us know exactly what specific tweaks do little, which ones do nothing, and which -- God forbid -- do something good. I wonder Which Bybee products you are referring to here.

Please post when you have something specific to offer that is based on solid facts -- not merely uninformed opinions and hot air.

Kijanki,
You stated, "I believe that adding additional components or cables might bring relieve in some areas but has to lead to overall lack of transparency." Please let us know what this "belief" is based on. I do not practice audio religion. And please let us know what audio "relieve" means. I have not run across this concept in high end audio before.

You stated, "I absolutely agree with you [referring to Mapman] that tweaks, at one point, become an obsession." You also seem to be an expert in this area. How many Bybee products did you say you have in your system? I must have missed that. I have upwards of 20 Bybee products in my system. You and Mapman seem to have upwards of 20 strong opinions about unnamed "tweaks" that you have never actually tried.

To close off this post, we see time again on these forums where posters have strong opinions -- even unequivocal opinions -- about products they have never used in their systems and have absolutely no experience with. What is the value of these opinions that are based on strongly held beliefs -- and nothing more? I think the answer is evident.

Charles1dad,
"Trimming and re-potting"? Sorry to disillusion so many people on this thread but high end audio is not a potted plant. To become so simplistic is to miss the point entirely. Simplicity for its own sake can be cutting off your nose to spite your own audio face. In fact, if a short signal path were the solution to audio nirvana there would be no mono amps, no pre-amps, no power conditioners, no power cells, no isolation transformers and no power regenerators -- among other audio components, not to mention daisy-chaining.

Bryoncunningham
I enjoy tweaking immensely but it is not just an on-again off-again thing with me. It is in the deliberate pursuit of a better sound system -- a much better sound system. When I find something that works I am delighted. When I find something that does not work or does not work well, out it goes. Improving my audio system is a labor of love -- call it an obsession. This is a passion for me. I am a serious audiophile. I always work for the best results in whatever I do and that means putting a lot of time and effort into things to be successful.

Chadeffect,
It looks like you have a lot of experience with quite a variety of "tweaks". In fact, I have tried many of the items you mention and still have some in my system.

You hit the nail on the head when you stated "more quantum this or that." These are the very products that have made the most difference in my system -- especially Bybee Quantum products -- when compared with the effects of special fuses, audiophile wall sockets, Acoustic Revive RR77, high end plugs and IECs, ERS cloth and many other "tweaks".

I listen to music over 90% of the time and I obsess a few percent of the time. I think that's a fair balance. Otherwise I would go nuts "tweak testing". I love music too much to waste my time in "testing mode". It probably sounded the other way around the way I expressed myself.

Charles1dad,
You make a good point. There are many different destinations in this vast audio world. Not everyone has the same wants and needs. So, to quote someone famous, "different strokes for different folks".

Mapman,
With no Bybees and single cabling you can only speculate about the kind of system that I have created. There is nothing wrong with speculation as long as we realize it for what it is. But those who have experience with what I have done will have opinions that are of higher value because they are based on actual experience and not simply speculation.

Mapman,
When I was referring to hot air it was in regards to making speculative statements that have no basis in actual fact. They are what I call hot air -- no experience behind them. Everyone takes their own approach -- which does not mean that a radically different approach should be regarded lightly or summarily dismissed because of preconceived notions that may or may not be correct.

Mapman,
Simple for simple sake may not be the answer to better sound. It is very easy for me to figure out what is going on with any single item in my system. I take it out and listen. I put it back in and I listen. The ears will tell very quickly, or after an appropriate break-in interval, whether it is adding or subtracting -- and to what extent -- or if it is more or less neutral. So, yes, my system very often does not sound right if the item added is not improving things. So, out it goes and then it sounds right again.

Mapman,
Different strokes for different folks. You abandoned complex for simple, I abandoned simple for complex. Yes, it is quite complicated and takes a lot of time and effort and money. But, for me, the rewards have been more than worth the time and the effort and the money.

Chadeffect,
You make a good point. I have no experience with the internal Bybee purifiers. I only have the plug-and-play versions in my system and they are all amazing. Otherwise -- out they would have gone.

Mapman,
The "tweaks" in my system have made such a fundamental improvement to the sound that I consider them as fundamental as components.

Mapman,
By the way, Bybee "tweaks" are so unrecognized and underrated in the audio community that I was lucky to pick most of them up at a very reasonable price. The cumulative price was quite substantial, I will admit. And, by the way, there is no "quicksand" in my system. And, by the way, I don't work on percentages. I just use what works. If that amount to 20% or 40% of my system then so be it. I am only interested in the best possible results.

Csontos,
Dare to wager. This is one you will not win.

Onhwy61,
"The onus of proof"? No problem. Come on over for a home cooked meal and an evening of lovely music anytime you're in Asia. Critical listening is done carefully with my reference CDs -- too many to mention. I would say 95% + is devoted to the pleasure of listening to my favorite music.

Mapman,
You got it absolutely right. "If it works it works." For me, the only "best practices" are those practices that improve the sound. I am very practical. I am only interested in results --- however they may come about.

Mapman,
You stated, "it is the user who assumes the risks associated with exploring lesser understood territories. They may strike gold or go bust. It all depends..... " You hit the nail on the head here.