LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along... Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
I had not disdained fuses; I've had too many experiences where products in the signal or power path have proven to have an effect, if not entirely efficacious, i.e. worth the money. I simply have too much going to think about them.
I finally found the motivation to try. My answers: Fuses are, all told, a gift to the audiophile community, and I plan on trying some more of them. I doubt that my conclusion will change due to continued usage, but if so I can revise my conclusion.
Doug, if you want request the mods remove my post above please feel free to, I would myself if I could through the edit function. Sorry man, there are a lot of people who are in the market, and to somehow compare something trivial like the use of fuses to the potential decline in people’s 401K, IRAs and savings just didn’t seemed right. But again, I wish I hadn’t written anything.
gdhal, not too be too harsh about this as I value your input (cough, cough) but you appear to be an excellent example of why some people should not (rpt not) ingest psychedelics. 🤡 I am the King of Fiction and the King of Truth.
Just an observation. It seems HAL is stuck in a DO loop. Maybe time to call Maintenance.
jetter Geoff, clearly something is up with you since al wrote his piece stating that wolf was a valued member of A’gon. Your posts have taken on a new attitude. I truly enjoy your don rickles of A’gon routine, but he had $30M when he met his maker, its a little unclear what you are getting out of all of this.
jitter, I always value your posts and hang on every word. 😛
All the tired horses in the sun, how am I gonna get any riding done?
kosst_amojan I can promise you that I can use $50 to improve almost any piece of gear in a more useful way than a fuse ever could. It's not a matter of cash. It's a matter of brains, and fuses are brainless.
“A brain is a terrible thing to have.” Another acid eater pipes up.
Geoff, clearly something is up with you since al wrote his piece stating that wolf was a valued member of A'gon. Your posts have taken on a new attitude. I truly enjoy your don rickles of A'gon routine, but he had $30M when he met his maker, its a little unclear what you are getting out of all of this.
dougie says "But, hey, you can reduce your expenditures on components perhaps 10%, from $5K to 4,500. That will really help you achieve your dream system in this difficult time, as opposed to buying a $50 fuse."
Not to rain on your parade, but for some of us this is just fun. I don’t dream about audio systems, my dreams are a little deeper. On the other hand, if your dream is cycling through stereo equipment I hope you have achieved nirvana.
dougie says "With the stock market now falling fuse skeptics will really be against them. Anyone whose primary objection to a tweak is monetary will never try it if their portfolio is losing. The tweak loses efficacy proportionate to their losses in the Market. ;) "
I’m really hoping you were hitting the sauce when you wrote this, so rude.
With the stock market now falling fuse skeptics will really be against them. Anyone whose primary objection to a tweak is monetary will never try it if their portfolio is losing. The tweak loses efficacy proportionate to their losses in the Market. ;)
But, hey, you can reduce your expenditures on components perhaps 10%, from $5K to 4,500. That will really help you achieve your dream system in this difficult time, as opposed to buying a $50 fuse.
What's it like to go through life doubting everything unless it's objectively tested? My neck would sure be sore looking over my shoulder all the time.
....but the ones I've seen that say there's a difference, actually heard the difference, whereas the ones that say there are no differences, say it without benefit of hearing it for themselves...
Of course though there are also ones that say there's a difference, yet are unable to reliably make the same statement once subjected to any kind of objective test. So there "saying" isn't really long lived.
That is true, but the ones I've seen that say there's a difference, actually heard the difference, whereas the ones that say there are no differences, say it without benefit of hearing it for themselves.
It seems that false equivalency can be had in all manner of fields.
Everyone's entitled to speculation. It doesn't mean they're right. I have helped a few well known manufacturers in regard to their speculation. After listening, they "revised" their speculation. :)
I don't see unanimity on fuses among manufacturers.
Interesting post about aftermarket fuses this week from a designer-manufacturer of well-regarded DACs, amplifiers, and other electronics,
"Depending the type of product we use transformers in a range between 15 and 30 VA. It means that the primary windings are as thin as monkey hair and will have a length of approx. 100 meters. The resistance of this primary copper winding is about 60-90 Ohms so what will be the effect of one centimeter of fuse wire compared to the primary copper wire."
I suspect this viewpoint may be considered too simplistic and unenlightened by those savvy folks who believe in the mystical effects of that "one centimeter of fuse wire." OTOH, aftermarket fuse manufacturers are probably already thinking about the potential profit on fuses made from beeswax, monkey hair, unobtainiam end caps, and (pick your color) paint.
Anything to discredit "snake oil'ers" just to give the gullible audiophiles out there something to think about, and to read others opinions, before they part with more than $100 for a fuse which the sound of is no better than a quality $2 fuse.
I don't know the vintage of the new Littlefuse and Buss fuse. They may have been several years old sitting in my drawer. I'm sure you will say that they should have been newly made to sound better. You'll write anything to discredit me.
Yes, I tried it in both directions and neither sounded good. Maybe if I applied some Total Contact it would have sounded better but why waste a good product on a mediocre product (mediocre for audio purposes, excellent for electrical safety purposes).
As to new or old stock fuses by Littlefuse and Buss, I couldn't tell the difference. Georgehifi always says the old fuse oxidized and is weaker than a new fuse. Well, I tried new in place of old (15+ year old) stock fuses and I couldn't tell the difference.
mpheaven I don't know which type of circuit breaker my friend used in his amps. I've tried several low end brand fuses while I waited for the SR Black. The Black was superior even without breaking in (72 hours). The SR Blue was superior immediately upon insertion and got better over time, not as dramatically but better overall. I have another pair of the same amps built 10 years ago that need upgrading. I will install the circuit breakers in them. I will be able to then compare the SR Blue and circuit breaker amps head to head. I bet they will be close.
douglas_schroeder My goal is to curate the thread to prevent as many tangential discussions as possible. I have no problem with such things being discussed, but imo if they are discussed here it becomes a quagmire to the primary objective of seeing the results of the survey and discussion pertaining solely to the efficacy of fuses.
Very noble. But you already said that. Nobody is creating a quagmire. Hel-loo!
@douglas_schroeder - To answer your direct question, I am a fuse skeptic and I only use a digital source.
Thanks for including the reference to your blind testing review. Very interesting. There seems to be lots of confounding of variables in your test method. The take away of a audible difference between system A and system B is supported by your write up. I didn't follow the conclusions of differences in the components that make up the systems.
I can ask specific questions on that review site so as not to redirect your thread.
Apologies, geoffkait; I thought that the Quantum Chip was a Machina Dynamica product. I did a bit of searching and see it is not. Thank you for pointing that out.
My goal is to curate the thread to prevent as many tangential discussions as possible. I have no problem with such things being discussed, but imo if they are discussed here it becomes a quagmire to the primary objective of seeing the results of the survey and discussion pertaining solely to the efficacy of fuses.
Just to be clear nobody has mentioned Machina Dynamica products on this thread including your humble scribe. i can certainly understand the OPs fear, however. LOL Quagmire like fuse threads aren't quagmires. Give me a break.
In case I haven't made it known previously in this forum, I have conducted double blind testing using the Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator (see review), and I passed the testing in regards to all components and cabling with the exception of amps that were level matched.
Thus, I have no interest in discussion of blind testing, for it is a moot point to me. My interest is whether a person has used fuses and whether they think a fuse is a gift to the community or snake oil.
I also asked whether a person is a fuse skeptic or fuse adopter what is their primary source, digital or analogue.
I will add that I wish to avoid discussion of other debated products here, such as Machina Dynamica products. Please save such discussion for other boards. I am not making any declaration about such products here in this thread. I do not wish to put this thread into a quagmire about debate of other products. I appreciate the creativity in additional tweaks of fuses, but I do not wish for that to become the primary discussion. Thank you.
geoffkait - It goes without saying the fuse, even if it’s a stock fuse, will sound significantly better in one direction than the other.
How about you contact me privately, so we can begin communication regarding your ability to hear a significant improvement when a stock fuse is oriented in the opposite direction.
I realize I’ve posted some of these before somewhere along the line but maybe it’s good to post them again. We’ll see. 😬 Without further ado here are some suggestions for further improving any newfangled high end fuse. Or any stock fuse.
1. Cryogenically treat the fuse. The cryo lab (if he’s a nice guy) will cryo it free.
2. Alternative to cryoing - Freeze the fuse in the home freezer, 2-4 Days recommended, let thaw in main refrigerator section for 4 hours.
3. Apply contact enhancer to end caps. If you already have established correct fuse direction be sure to maintain correct orientation.
4. Alternative to contact enhancer: paint both encapsulated with permanent violet/purple marker.
5. Wedge a thin slice of natural cork under the fuse holder as counter vibration measure.
6. Make a “tent” out of mu metal and cover fuse and fuse holder. Since mu metal is VERY CONDUCTIVE cover both sides and all edges of the mu metal with adhesive paper or vinyl.
7. Apply WA Quantum Chip for Fuse to the body of the fuse. WA Quantum Chips are still available from distributors such as VH Audio. WA Quantum Chips come in various flavors for capacitors, inductors/transducers, speakers, breaker box, cables, etc.
8. It goes without saying the fuse, even if it’s a stock fuse, will sound significantly better in one direction than the other.
I absolutely hear a difference upgrading fuses, it makes a HUGE benefit to the sound for relatively little money. I've loved the Hi Fi Tuning fuses, but haven't tried the Synergistic Fuses yet.
@ fleschler - Was the 5A circuit breaker you tried inplace of the fuse a thermal or magnetic circuit breaker? Is the SR Blue the best sounding fuse you have tried?
I was quoting an article on the subject of the then new NASA fuses. I mentioned in my post it was an excerpt of an article. ‘‘Twas not I. My association with NASA ended long before that article was published.
@geoffkait "The fusible element is comprised of thick film gold that is deposited on
a thermally and electrically insulated substrate. A complete range of
fusing values is achievable by precisely controlling the fusible element
print thickness and geometry. Thick film silver termination pads are
placed at each end of the thick film fusible element. The fusible
element is completely covered with an arc suppressive glass."
That's exactly the material I used to R&D and produce. Beyond the full spectrum of thick film, we also made thin (metallorganic and organometallic) film, gold powders, glass (sounds like a single item, but we had too many formulations to list or discuss here), dielectric tapes, solder, etc. Most fun at work I ever had, and a fair number of us were audiophiles.
Whose thick film did you use, and what means did you use to apply them? Your substrate was alumina or something else?
It
might be interesting to see how many fuse Skeptics and Adopters own
digital or analogue front ends. Could we add this to the survey?
I'm a skeptic with both analog and digital front ends, but I'm not a naysayer. I learned long ago not to judge the sound of anything without listening. Similarly, I won't buy a car I haven't driven, or buy a suit I haven't tried on first.
I'll probably experiment with a fuse or two sometime. It just isn't high on my priority list.
Meanwhile, everyone here should be able to discuss their experiences without some of the acrimony that results, imo.
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