I thought he was wearing a mask. 🤡
We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses
LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
661 responses Add your response
It's always interesting to see what people think motivates others. There is a fascinating dynamic at work in that; a person chooses their mentor, whom they will or won't trust - and that has enormous sway over the outcome of their rig, and their happiness as an audiophile. Worldview and unspoken priorities/principles dictate whom you do or do not trust. That, in turn dictates the selection of components and methods, what the HiFi looks like in front of you. Finally, that determines much of whether you will enjoy the music. So much of this hobby hinges on trust and disbelief. Especially with analogue. LOL :) |
| Post removed |
One can substitute all the audio references you've mentioned with any other topic and it would handily apply. People need to keep an open mind, question authority and actually experiment, which science demands of us. Some like to cling to tenets and what they consider dead documents which results in zealots, fundamentalists, dogmatists and fanatics. I could have saved money if I thought that way but then, my stereo would suck. All the best, Nonoise |
This ageing and carbonization is the only reason an old $2 industry fuse should be replaced, because it’s seen too many switch-on surges. And a $100 boutique will be the same after it sees too many switch-on surges also. A slow-blo fuse "ageing" right to left https://peakpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fuse-8312-640x426.jpg A fast-blo fuse "ageing" left to right https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg%20 Cheers George |
Keeping it real, means to know and least something of Electronic Engineering, and putting any snake oil beliefs back in the cupboard. http://pilerats.com/assets/Uploads/House-of-Voodoo1-Facebook-2.jpg Cheers George |
Like I said over on the other snake oil thread to you. " Every piece of hifi gear you own is designed using science, EE laws and measurements, then it’s listen to, and any adjustments made are done again using science, EE laws and measurements!!!! If you believe anything else then https://youtu.be/kw32fiasUSs?t=9 Cheers George |
| Post removed |
Again, that doesn't account for what can be done, and heard, as a result of tweakingChanging fuses is not tweaking, which real tweaks are measurable one way or another, it’s snake oil nothing more nothing less. The only reason a fuse can be better as said before, is if it’s seen too many turn on surge cycles (below), then it behaves a bit like a light globes filaments. It bends too many times because of the turn on surges, hardens, then carbons up. Have you ever noticed how bright a new globe seems compared to the one that just blew even though they’re the same wattage, and they always blow at turn on, because of the turn on surge. A slow-blo fuse "ageing" right to left https://peakpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fuse-8312-640x426.jpg A fast-blo fuse "ageing" left to right https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg%20 Cheers George Cheers George |
| Post removed |
This is the best one. ’m asking anyone who knows if it’s possible to buy a sheet of graphene and cut it to size to fit around a fuse and get some, if not most, of the benefits of a SR Black fuse. I read something over at audio circle where someone is selling small sheets of the stuff to wrap around fuses but I can’t find the original thread. No this ones even better. What I've noticed a lot is the surreal quality there now is to percussion, be it with stick, brush, hand and the drum, box, or instrument used to receive the blow or strike. I swear it seems like I can tell if an opening is facing or turned away from the mike and subtle movements of the instrument or positioning and changes with hand placements. It seems to be consistent with the room echo and decay manner that accompany it. Talk about "seeing into" a performance. You can do better than that, consult your doll, seeing you have no electronic engineering knowledge. http://live105.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/voodoo-dolls-wallpaper.jpg Cheers George |
Georgie Boy, you've must have spent a couple of hours scouring for those. 👍 Good boy! That last one must have really gotten to you. Hell, good for me. 👍 I never said I had "electronic engineering knowledge" or training but how would it disqualify me from appreciating my gear? You, on the other hand, appear to know all there is to and yet your cries are getting fainter, your world getting darker. Are you actually implying that you can't tell if a performer is turning or facing away from a mike? What's it like being able to build an amp and not be good at it? To not make something with enough resolution to almost recreate an event? I'm sure it measures well but maybe you need some new schematics. Oh, and there were a few others who thought the very same thing as I did when graphene was first discussed so don't forget to look them up as well and berate them while you're on a tear. You can't let all that pent up energy go to waste. It can give you the shakes (adrenaline and all). I just tweak off the shelf gear and get great results. 😂😂😂 Maybe you need a refresher course or it could be you simply don't have good hearing. Despite good rote memory and those "electronic engineering" skills, they simply can't make up for your poor results. You need to get a life, Georgie Boy, and concentrate on something other than me. You're so easy to analyze but it would be too cruel for me to dissect you. I know you need to do this as it's safe in the virtual world and you suffer no real consequences save for making a fool of yourself but, what the hell Georgie Boy, knock your socks off, go back, and spend more hours ferreting out past quotes and don't forget to take your meds. All the best, Nonoise |
Georgie Boy, you've must have spent a couple of hours scouring for those.Na! didn't take long at all, many of your posts are full of snake oil those were just a teeny weeny sample. Are you sure you and Geoff are joined at the hip. I never said I had "electronic engineering knowledge" or trainingThat's very obvious. Cheers George |
georgehifi, I would appreciate it if you showed more respect toward me as the OP. You have thus far suggested that I have ulterior motives tied to sales of fuses, and now are overtly calling this a "snake oil" thread, as though I started it with ill intent. Some facts for you; I don't give a rip about how many fuses any particular comapny sells, as this is completely independent of any activity I pursue privately or as a reviewer. My writing is detached from the marketing and sales of any company whose product I review. The one perk I get is industry accommodation pricing on products. I fail to see how that should motivate me to endorse a class of products if they don't work well. It's not good for my reputation if I back junk. So, I don't back junk. In this instance I bought fuses as would any audiophile from a local dealer, paying the going rate. I was not ready to invest a lot of time to conduct a review if fuses were not efficacious. I had no incentive to promote fuses one way or the other; I wanted to discover whether they had efficacy in system building. I have learned through handing products that it's the best way to tell whether a class of product is worth pursuing. I was exploring this for my own benefit, then for the community's benefit. So, it's been my extra time, my money expended for this. I didn't get some fuses free, then direct people to a manufacturer. It seems you have jumped to some conclusions that are unwarranted. Now, if you want to call fuses as such "snake oil" I can't stop you. But, please don't impugn my good intent with smearing the thread with accusations of promotion of snake oil. For your information, I likely will pursue fuses further, because the use of only one fuse of two variants in a power supply on a DAC has proven highly efficacious. If you don't want to believe me that's ok. I can't force you to try an aftermarket fuse. I'm not going to malign you because you don't believe it. But, at least give me some respect for having good intent and above board practices. I envision that the day could come when we become fast friends here! I don't think that's too far fetched, as it has happened several times before. I would rather not be combative, but have friendly discourse. I have found that the cost of the fuse at about $50 conferred an equivalent change to many expensive cables, and even components. Do I know how? Not at all. Even engineers don't know how. But, it's easily heard - and do mean easily by most people. So, iI'm requesting some respect in this matter. Now, if you feel in your certainty that you do not need to respect me, nor anyone else who supports aftermarket fusues, then I think I'm done speaking with you. :) Finally; to the community - PLEASE, this is a quagmire, as I said previously. Belittling and ragging at people will accomplish NOTHING toward getting them interested in exploring alternative system setups. Let's be cordial and invite some good exchange. If georgehifi wishes to contact me and see if we live near enough to have him visit, I would be happy to have a fuse swap session to show him what I'm experiencing. :) |
I admit I shouldn't have responded but George has infected many threads here on A'gon. Just one look at some of the topics here show him as a crasher and a bully. He spares no one and it just got to me. Sure, he has an opinion as valid as anyone but it's his abusive nature that got the better of me. Like Doug, I will now ignore any and all of his comments and get back to my normal duties as the average audiophile, here for the fun of it. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
GeorgeHiFi: It’s is clear to some of us that you don’t understand the limitations of the current state of audio engineering. Guys like Nelson Pass are OK as designers go but are not thorough and detailed enough to bring a complete solution to market. This is left for others to do. I mean why wouldn’t Pass Labs sell their products with the proper power cord and fuses as a complete OEM solution? Why is it left up to the customer to re-engineer the product? Thankfully, there are more qualified exponents who can recommend the correct peripherals to rectify these oversights. |
@georgehifi You make a good point regarding the aging of fuses. I don't think we have considered the degradation they endure by the turn on - turn off process over time. As someone who has had to run a lot of aging tests in the electronic materials we developed and produced, ran them against our competition, and saw the ill effects, I should have put 2 and 2 together. Regardless of whether you believe in the efficacy of using better materials in fuses, fuse direction, or just use the typical off the shelf fuse, it's probably a good idea to think of fuses more like our engine oil, and regularly change them. Hope we can come to the point where we're not so dug in on either side so as to lose sight of the worth of each person, let alone hear what they have to say. @douglas_schroeder Just wanted to tip my hat to you for the way you've conducted yourself in this thread. Great job! |
As for fuses wearing out, I just posted this on another thread and it's just as relevant here: For those who still refuse to "know" how an aftermarket fuse works: HRC Fuse consists of highly heat resistant material (such as ceramic) body having metal-end caps, which is welded by silver current carrying element. The fuse body internal space is completely packed with a filling powder. The material, which has filled the insider space, may be plaster of Paris, quartz, chalk, marble, dust and cooling mediums etc. That’s why it carries normal current without overheating. The heat being produced vaporizes the silver melted element. Chemical reaction taking place between silver vapor and filling powder results in high resistance substance, which helps in quenching the arc in fuse. and,
This is from a normal site on fuses, based on years old knowledge, and available to anyone who would care to look at it. But that would be akin to actually trying it, wouldn't it? All the best, Nonoise |
trelja Yes you are correct and yes change them as a maintenance reason, but don’t tell me a >$100 fuse will sound like this compared to a quality $2 fuse "I’ve noticed a lot is the surreal quality there now is to percussion, be it with stick, brush, hand and the drum, box, or instrument used to receive the blow or strike. I swear it seems like I can tell if an opening is facing or turned away from the mike and subtle movements of the instrument or positioning and changes with hand placements. It seems to be consistent with the room echo and decay manner that accompany it. Talk about "seeing into" a performance." mikexxyz22 posts03-24-2018 6:59amGeorgeHiFi: Your kidding, this basically says Geoff and Nonoise are more competent in fuse area than Nelson Pass is. Guys like Nelson Pass, John Curl, Dan D’Agostino would’nt be seen dead promoting fuses in this forum the way the >$100 fusers here do. Cheers George |
If a mere fuse caused any audible change in sound in any of my equipment then you can be assured I would be rid of that useless POS boat anchor equipment in a flash. If a mere fuse makes an audible difference in your gear then you can be pretty much assured that anything else electrical you own or anything electrical your neighbours own will ALL affect your sound according to what is or isn’t plugged in. |
If a mere fuse caused any audible change in sound in any of my equipment then you can be assured I would be rid of that useless POS boat anchor equipment in a flash. If a mere fuse makes an audible difference in your gear then you can be pretty much assured that anything else electrical you own or anything electrical your neighbours own will ALL affect your sound according to what is or isn’t plugged in. So, if you owned any gear from PS Audio or Wyred4Sound, you'd get rid of it? Rather hasty, wouldn't you say? All the best, Nonoise |
To any of the non technical audophiles here who are confused about this "snake oil" subject. Just save your dollars and get the right quality $2 fuse from here and be be happy that your not on the voodoo’ist merry go round, changing from Black to Blue to what next, Gold!!! perhaps, fuses that do nothing more than a quality $2 one can do. https://www.digikey.com.au/products/en/circuit-protection/fuses/139?k=glass%20fuses Cheers George |
@georgehifi
+1 |
| Post removed |
You’re only out to prove that you are not missing something that others can hear. Why should we who do hear it, want to prove to you, that there is something you can not hear? Double blind tests is not the way. Live with something for a while and get used to what you hear. Then, switch to the other and see what differences you can detect. If you are listening with speakers that muddle the sound? Who could hear what is needed in the first place? |
No, I think George is trying to say the emperor has no clothes. Hearing, like everything that can be measured, has variation. Some can hear better than others; young hear better than old. The owner of Harbeth Speakers has an interesting challenge that he has offered for years. If you can tell the difference between his amp and your amp (non clipping) while auditioning his speakers, you can have them for free ($15K). This should be a no-brainer for many people on this site. A great trip to the UK essentially paid for by Harbeth. (I recommended the music festival in Edinburgh in August. If you golf, Royal Dornoch is fabulous.) You know how many speakers he has given away? None. You know how many people have taken him up on his challenge? None. I think its a mischaracterization to say jealousy drives some of the naysayer comments. Personally, I know that other people can hear better than I can - no problem. Likewise, I have no problem with people of means buying whatever they like. What is troubling is the misrepresentation of the benefits of these dubious products. |
mikexxyz23 posts03-24-2018 8:47am@georgehifi - Yes, I was kidding. +1 Sorry must of misunderstood your post. I was worried that you were going to be the very first here of the technically experienced, that got swayed to the "snake oil" side. Cheers George |
mikexxyz I think its a mischaracterization to say jealousy drives some of the naysayer comments. Personally, I know that other people can hear better than I can - no problem. Likewise, I have no problem with people of means buying whatever they like. What is troubling is the misrepresentation of the benefits of these dubious products. >>>>Huh? Whoa!! First, no one accused anyone of jealousy. Where did you come up with that? We DO accuse them of being pseudo skeptics since real skeptics would actually attempt to get to the bottom of all this fuse business instead of shooting from the hip and from the comfort of their Barco Lounger. Second, no one has misrepresented the benefits of the aftermarket fuses. Haven’t you been following? Talk about shooting from the hip. What HAS been misrepresented is the notion that “well designed amps” are immune to the benefits of aftermarket fuses and some sort of mumbo jumbo nonsense that science can’t explain why aftermarket fuses work better than an ordinary fuses. It appears Harbeth in their wisdom copied the business model for blind test scams set forth by The Amazing Randi and his Education Foundation. Cough, cough! |
NASA gets the high end fuse bug. Note similarity to audiophile high end fuses. 😁 “The high voltage power systems of satellites and spacecraft present unique fuse and fault protection challenges. High reliability fuses presently defined by MIL-PRF-23419 do not meet the increased voltage and amperage requirements for the next generation of spacecraft. Solid-body style fuses exhibit superior electrical and mechanical attributes that enable these fuses to perform reliably in the vacuum and high vibration and shock environments typically present in spacecraft applications. The construction and screening techniques for solid-body fuses described by MIL-PRF- 23419/12 offer an excellent roadmap for the development of high voltage solid-body fuses. While FM08 style fuses are constructed with a wire filament that passes through a hollow cavity (see Figure 1), solid-body fuses (FM12 styles included) are designed and constructed in a manner that ensures that the overall fuse package is substantially devoid of air. Figure 2 provides a sectional view of a typical FM12 style fuse. The fusible element is comprised of thick film gold that is deposited on a thermally and electrically insulated substrate. A complete range of fusing values is achievable by precisely controlling the fusible element print thickness and geometry. Thick film silver termination pads are placed at each end of the thick film fusible element. The fusible element is completely covered with an arc suppressive glass. Leads are attached to the silver terminations by the use of high temperature solder. The final fuse package is insert molded with an engineering thermoplastic to complete the fuse.” NOTE: Excerpt provided above taken from technical paper written almost twenty years ago. - your friend and humble scribe who, incidentally, presented a paper to the national AIAA conference on the dodgy subject of a low thrust ion engine for interplanetary travel exactly 50 years ago today. |
It might be interesting to see how many fuse Skeptics and Adopters own digital or analogue front ends. Could we add this to the survey? If you are a Skeptic, or Adopter, do you have a digital, analogue or both sources? (Yes, the info is available in some members' virtual systems, but that's a pita to mine the data) I am a fuse Adopter, with digital front end. |
I am now a fuse adopter with both a digital and analog front end--both very high quality sound. Was ignorant of the difference fuses made in the system, but was already a believer without trying based on the many positive responses from experienced audiophiles. But mostly on a couple of my best audio friends who've tried them and found a significant difference for the better with certain aftermarket fuses. I only hesitated because I wanted to hear about the possible amount of blown fuses after changing. It doesn't appear to be a big problem, so I finally went for it when a big sale happened for SR fuses. |
I am not a fuse adopter, with digital front end. By the way, I haven’t read anything herein (could have missed it though) about cases where fuses are not readily accessible and therefore require one to open a factory sealed component and risk voiding the warranty as a result of doing so. Of course if you’re a do-it-yourself person that may be a moot point. But voiding or potentially voiding a manufacturers warranty is a hell of a price to pay for being stylish. |
gdhal, good point! Two thoughts; any fuse replacement is going to require entering the unit. Most of the manufacturers I know who object to opening the unit hold an absolute ban on it, regardless if it is a fuse or other part. Some even place a tamper proof seal over the access to the component so they will know if it has been opened. So, the question regarding aftermarket fuses and such manufacturers might be moot. You are right, in such cases voiding a warranty for replacing a fuse would be high price to pay. That should be weighed, and if I had such a component I likely would not replace the fuse in it. Sensible enough. In other cases, however, when it comes to a fear that a manufacturer would void the warranty, I think first it would have to be demonstrated that fuses had the capacity to actually cause damage. We have seen nothing along those lines here (Unless someone wishes to offer an example, but I think they would be rare to non-existent). When you have a fear of voiding a warranty doing a "DIY" change that has perhaps a .0001 % chance of damage, or maybe even less, then that fear, imo, is unfounded. Most manufacturers would know this. In fact, they likely would be highly suspicious of anyone who claimed the fuse caused damage for that reason. The odds would be far greater that the person damaged something else while in the act of trying to place or remove a fuse. But that would be horridly clumsy, and such a person shouldn’t even be inside a component. YMMV Regardless, I think you raise a good point, and though I don’t agree with it entirely it is something to be considered. :) |
🐑 gdhal I am not a fuse adopter, with digital front end. By the way, I haven’t read anything herein (could have missed it though) about cases where fuses are not readily accessible and therefore require one to open a factory sealed component and risk voiding the warranty as a result of doing so. Of course if you’re a do-it-yourself person that may be a moot point. But voiding or potentially voiding a manufacturers warranty is a hell of a price to pay for being stylish. >>>>Yeah, amazing what audiophiles will go through for better sound! Trust me, you have no idea. Seriously. |
