A few things are going on there. Power output is measured at frequency(s) and a distortion level. So not all amps are measured the same. Next is just one channel driven or all channels driven (usually just one). Next is the power supply, it may be fine for one channel and run out of steam with both channels driven hard. Third is that doubling the power only gives you a 3db increase so there’s not much difference between 75 watts and 150 watts. |
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I have two Belles amps in my collection that I have yet to try. A model II and one twice the size. I assume the model II is about 50wpc and the larger Belles amp is 100wpc at least. David Belles has a good reputation as an amp designer. That's why I bought the two I have at hand! He also designed some amps for another company - whose name escapes me! Comments? |
An amp's ability to deliver current, especially into 4 ohms and lower, is a better indicator of its performance with different speakers than its voltage rating! |
Good YouTube video. Paul McGowan explains it all. |
Partially it's clipping and partially it is the poor damping factor of the tube amp screwing up the frequency response emphasizing some frequencies to give the impression of louder. |
An amp's ability to deliver current, especially into 4 ohms and lower, is a better indicator of its performance with different speakers than its voltage rating!
Agree. I have always enjoyed using amps with big power supplies that can deal with very low impedance speakers (one of my favourites puts out only 40 watts into 8 ohms, but when bridged will put out 500 W into 1 ohm). As it happens, I still own one of Belles rather rare amps, the 'Belles A' - I believe that he made less than 200 of them. 70 W output, but when asked about how low impedance it would drive into, supposedly commented along the lines that t would drive a clip wire (between the output terminals). What I do know is that the turn on pulse welded a couple of switches together so I just used a commercial power bar to turn it on (and replaced the bar when it eventually failed). Tube amps can't do that - but when they do clip, they do it more gracefully. |
The reason is that new solid state amplifiers are low current devices based on cost cutting when you listen to a good vintage class ab solid state that is 250 watts with a lot of current behind it the 75 tube watts will sound not nearly as dynamic but you need to listen to a solid state amp made before 2000 to get what i am talking about.
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Not true at All ,it depends on the designer .I Have Coda electronics .
they are old school massive power supply , potted transformers much quieter then open ,Coda 3KVA transformer,and over 80k Uf capacitance ,that’s just their mid grade most amps not even close . |
The OP has not listened to the Anthem P2 power amp, let him bring his 75 watt Belles amp over and I will put it into my system and then he can listen to my Anthem P2 amp and we will see which one sounds better at any level, the P2 will play down 1 ohm and even to short without missing a beat.If you are near the Chicago land area b_limo then drop me a line and we will compare.
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It sounds like the OP b_limo is getting a little stir crazy, since his posts seem to be bashing one thing after the other.
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I have owned a Belles Aria, it is a very well designed amplifier. It does have solid bass, smooth, detailed midrange and good extended top end.
The amp design is one of Dave Belles's better. What I believe that you are mistaking for volume is Dynamics, the 75 watt per channel Aria punches way above its weight and does sound more powerful than most because of how dynamic it is. |
@speakermaster I have owned maybe 25 amplifiers manufactured between 1976 and 2000. While I will say that amplifier design has not significantly improved since then, the quality of parts has, outputs transistors, capacitors etc. I find that while there are some awesome classic amplifiers out there, A good amp designer today has the advantage of lower distortion, better quality parts than was available in the vintage gear that you continually rave about. |
Same here. Own the Emotiva xpa-1 1000W monoblocs.
They get smoked by the odyssey kismet amps at 200 W. I use the amps at 4-Ohms for my modded CV D-9 speakers.
The small watt Kismets at maybe 360-375 W at 4 Ohms sound better, smoother, tighter compared to the 1000W emo monos.
Been told better parts, etc. totally believe it!!
They are deeper bass, crunchier mid ranges, highs are not irritating as the emo monos.
Better parts and the sound is more relaxing and accurate.
Is it parts? Or a combo of parts and quality which leads to better sound. ??
im not bashing the emo stuff, the odyssey just has a more relaxed tone, and lets me listen longer.
The emo stuff is saved as backup amps.
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@timlub “I have owned maybe 25 amplifiers manufactured between 1976 and 2000.”
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That’s better than 1 per year; what did you start with, and what do you have now?
I heard a superb Belles Virtuoso amp at Audio Connection, and followed up by buying one from Johnn R. Great guy. It’s going to be a few weeks until I get it, and I am really looking forward to replacing the Rotel power amp I’ve had for 20 years now. I’m never going to catch up with you! |
@ctwith3 Those amplifiers were owned across the years, even now. I just rebuilt a Sumo Polaris and a GAS Grandson, both with very high quality parts and they both responded very well. I'm surprised how good these old amps sound. But I've had 3 different Sumo's, a couple of Gas, an old Coda, Classe, Parasound, Kenwood Mono's, Kenwood stereo, an Edge, Yaqin, YBA, Heathkit (still have AA1600), 2 - PS Audio (200c & Delta), a Hafler DH-500, Kinergetics, a Marcof, an old Arcam.... right now that's what I remember.
Actually, these were mostly all decent sounding products. The Kenwood mono's were L07m's. I enjoyed those, but afterward, I bought a Basic M1, I did not like that, also had a Parasound, don't remember the model, employee purchased it in 1980, didn't love it. Again, these are all pre 2000 models.
I'd love to hear the Virtuouso. I had an Aria integrated a couple of years ago, it was a huge value and very nice sounding piece. I just built several Class D amps and am rotating 2 of those in and out of the system with the Sumo and Grandson. I am currently using a SST Ambrosia preamp that I really like. Not sure this answers your questions, but there you go. |
JB 52,
If the current delivered at 4ohms or less is the more critical factor
where does one find that number in a MFGs specs or a review? |
I am looking to upgrade to anothera decent 2 channel amp and...YES...I too would like to hear what people think are the Critical amp specs...I am looking all over..new..used etc and it gets confusing...all I have...right now...is my pair of B&W CM9s that I found the sweet spot in a difficult room...not the best speakers overall of course but to my ear at that 3 Grand price range they do just fine...but I think they need a bigger amp.. |
