There is no argument Frogman, you're listening to Class "A" analog while recommending no class analog for someone else.
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Again, you are missing the point. If you weren’t so predisposed to interpreting others’ comments the way that you want to see them it would be clear. I’ll try it one last time (with you). For starters, suggesting that the reason that someone does not see things from your point of view is that he beat you to the bong is an argument by any standard. But, that’s your style and I know it well. Unfortunate. Straight ahead. Now, if you had cared to really read my comments you would see that the only gear that I have “recommended” as worthwhile is “well chosen and well set up” budget gear; specifically the vintage Thorens that I linked. This, as a way to encourage those wanting to try vinyl for the first time while staying within their stated budget, or very close to it, to try it. IMO, it IS possible to get a taste of what many find so “involving” about analog while staying within their stated budgets. Funny, how quick some are to spend other people’s money. Also funny is how that budget figure gets smaller and smaller each time you quote it. Have you ever heard a well set up vintage Thorens? I doubt it. You would be shocked at how close it would come to your beloved Rega as far as playing MUSIC goes; and, for some, in some specific ways, it does it even better. Please reread my comments if you want more specific details as to why I feel the way I do. If that is not enough then read, if you haven’t already, big_greg’s comments as to why he enjoys listening to his lp’s more than his digital, finding the experience more “involving”. Those comments sum things up very nicely. What is “better” music playback? That which scores points in all the “audiophile” criteria, but doesn’t keep you glued to your listening chair digging the music? Or, that which does? For me it’s a no-brainer. |
I do see Nottingham Interspace used from time to time for about $1500, rarely though. Not sure of the price for a new one, probably around $2.5k for table/arm. Usually, people keep their tables for a long time if they like them and only upgrade when they can go much higher, which in reality often means double the price. New Technics might do too. A lot also depends on your music and sound preferences. There are reasons why the very best turntables are belt drive. In ideal world I would have two, both belt drive and direct drive, but that would be a totally different level of performance and cost in the dozens of thousands. $2.5k - $5k range for new table/arm will let you get into analog seriously. $500-$1k for cartridge and $1k - $1.5k for phono. |
@big_greg
I recently picked up a JVC QL-Y66F DD table with a Stanton 981 HZS cartridge for $545. Is it better than my digital sources (which isn't something the OP asked for by the way)? No. Do the used records I buy sound really nice on it after a good cleaning? Yes! Do I get more enjoyment out of it than my digital sources? Yes! Is it more pleasing on the eyes than my CD player or DAC? Yes! You've got an amazing MM cartridge if the stylus is the original Stereohedron or Stereohedron II, congrats! Normally this cartridge alone cost more than you paid for cart + turntable :) |
Frogman, I've been listening to nothing but brand new LP's for days; old music, but new LP's; it really takes big strong fingers to pluck fat bass fiddle strings, and Mingus has them. I'm listening to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0A_Ik6TTn0 It's so amazing how well this can be heard on a new LP. My contention in regard to vinyl has always been the same; I deplore the misleading assertions that the sound audiophiles are raving about can be had for next to nothing, and those old record players that were common in the 70's can deliver. They deliver now, what they delivered then, which is why everyone threw them on the trash, and bought a CD player. I realize how you have to wade through a "hodge podge" of statements in order to read mine, and how it's all so confusing, which is why you don't see the consistency in my statements, but I hate for people to waste money and be disappointed, which is something they're going to do if they believe there is something magically inherent in a vinyl record. |
To the OP Not sure whether they were sold in the US but Yamaha’s YP-800 is a good bet for a modestly priced entry into Japanese DD tables. The included arm’s okay and I’d second the Goldring 1042. With a budget phono I was surprised how close that combo got to my EMM Labs cdp particularly with vocals. Be prepared to have the power supply re-capped, certainly in the UK well under $1000 would be possible. When the EMM died rather than repair it I picked up an SP10 with Jelco arm, added an AT33 ptgii and decent phono and haven’t looked back, way better sound than I ever achieved with a digital based system for a good deal lower outlay Why do people buy CD or Stream? It's easy, you can get decent sounds As for the vinyl, it took a good deal of time and effort setting up to take it from good to great |
In the last month I have ditched my 28 yr old Mirage M-5's that I thought I would have the rest of my life and I am 68 yrs old and my Marantz SR 8002 I thought had beautiful sounds with M-5's..But I have tinnitus really bad and thought these last years it was that more that, than equipment. Was I wrong.. Purchased used Definitive techogoly BP8080st bi polar to see and I was amazed at what I was hearing, that sound of separation of music again.. With just change of speakers and I am all time CD playing. I will next year get into streaming.. But just purchased my first vacuum amp from Raven and they sent a Nighthawk out until they build the Blackhawk Mk iii units.. Now I am hearing music instruments that I never knew were in a CD sound track...And Dave from Raven is sending upgraded tubes to see if I can hear any more musical sounds that I may be missing.. So I am excited every time I turn this equipment on.. I am using a Sony CD/Blu Ray with 192/24 spec audio .. I think at times to hear a vinyl play but I will not go that direction.. will purchase a better CD player and looking at a Marantz Network Audio Player. But right now I am enjoying sound I never knew were there and hopefully the Blackhawk when it arrives shares with me few more details than now... And next year would like to try Non Bi polar speakers and see what they sound like..the last time I had front firing speakers was 1980 Pioneer CS 99A wooden box speakers and that was a Loog time ago and since have had bi Polar.. any suggestions??? Was thinking Definitive Tech STL's. |
Tonight, I discovered "ultimate analog"; that's what I call it, because it was too compelling to quit listening to, and I never found words to describe it. Never do I record CD's or LP's at 15 IPS because it's too expensive. Tonight, I found a box of tape on 10 inch plastic reels, it was tape that had been recorded over and erased, therefore can be purchased very cheaply. I had made recordings on this tape at 15 IPS and forgotten about it. While the music came through, the first reel was noisy, but the music came through over the noise. There were 10, 10 inch reels, so I still had a lot of tape to go. The second reel wasn't noisy, and from the audio, I deduced that I had recorded LP's because of the way the music drew me in, but there was no record noise or "tell tale clicks" that are a dead give away for LP's. The music was so compelling, that I quit all analytical listening and just went with the flow. First, let us define what music is, it's a part of you; you're inner being, that most personal of selves. It is the most important record of your life, because it celebrates the high times and the low times. When you experience instant recall of those times and places, that is invoked or excited by the music, to the extent that you can visualize the experiences, and even re-live the emotions; that is because the music has resonated your subconscious memory. This was the first time I had heard music that compelling. I listened to one reel after another; going back 50 years in time, seeing the people, events, and experiencing the emotions that made those times. I played one reel after another till almost day; that is when I began to analyze what had transpired. The terms we use to separate CD's and LP's by calling one digital, and the other analog, had been fused to create one compelling "super audio"; music with the emotion of analog, but minus the pops, clicks, and noise; that was music from CD's that had been recorded to magnetic tape at 15 IPS, and played back; you do the analyzing. |
My 2-cents worth. My Rega RP3 -- bought about 12 years ago with a Rega Elys, upgraded 7 years ago to a Dynavector 10x5 -- gives me better sound than my CD Player (NAD C516BEE). I upgraded 2 years ago to a better phone stage (Pro-Ject Tube Box DS), and got significant improvement. It's a mood thing. When I am working or just need background music, I play CDs. When I'm really listening, I play LPs. And no, my analog rig was well within the $1K when I started. I added a few bucks every few years. So NO -- you don'r need big bucks to enjoy vinyl!! G |
Dear mrpostfire, Analog that tops digital is not inexpensive, and coming from a guy that started with analog, a grand in used gear won’t quite cut it. But it’s a start. Why? A bring home the bacon cartridge starts at around the $500-$1200 mark, with the sky being the law of deminishing returns limit. Ortofon 2M Bronze $440, Dynavector 10X5 Mk2 $750, Grado Sonata V2 $600, Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III Hi MC $550, and this is quality "entry level" gear. That doesn’t leave a lot left for table, wire and tonearm. So for a grand, in my experience, tough to do. But it’s a start. If buying new I’d suggest a Rega Planar 3 Turntable $950, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit Black with 2M Blue stylus $760, Thorens TD 203 Turntable w/ Arm & Ortofon 2M Blue $700, get you in for around a grand. If you’re going used? I’ve had an Oracle Delphi since 1982. Ya, ya, some will comment suspension tables this/that, but the fact of the matter is it’s a fine and rock solid table. They start at about a grand for just the table, no arm or cartridge. Add another $500 for a Rega RB300 arm, add a starter cartridge for another $500, and for $2000 G’s you’ve got a table you can build on from here to eternity. "Caveat" - - don’t mix a Rega arm with a Grado Sonata cartridge ! Another table I’ve had experience with is the VPI Scout, and there’s a Scout Jr on eBay right now for $700, which is something to take a good hard look at. Happy hunting. |
I don't know if there is a consensus but it seems like more people believe $1000 isn't enough to capture the "analog magic." I can up my budget to $2500 new or used. The Nottingham's look intriguing as do the vintage Luxman PD 441. One thing I want to avoid is manually fiddling with the belt to change play speeds. I'll have to do some more research but I appreciate those providing specific suggestions. Thanks. |
Mrpostfire, I'm over 70, I had vinyl until CD's came out, and I have no idea what the "vinyl experience" is about; without a high end analog rig it was "crap" and good riddance. However, it's entering a new dimension in music with a top flight rig. What you don't want to do is waste money by buying something cheap. This is a long term investment; musical pleasure for the rest of your life. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/luxman-aims-reach-more-vinyl-enthusiasts-new-high-end-turntab... That looked like something you could live with, I believe I could. The best thing about new, is the possibility that you might be able to try before you buy; this TT business is very competitive. In regard to a cartridge, I recommend that you get one in the vicinity of 1K; like ice cream, they come in different flavors, but more or less the same quality in said price range. The best way to choose a cartridge without auditioning it, is to carefully read the reviews, and read as many as possible. Pay close attention to the music, the reviewer is using; if he uses music that is compatible with your tastes, and gives that music glowing reviews, you've got a match. It ain't easy being an audiophile, but the rewards are tremendous. |
@mrpostfire , Many good suggestions here. I believe all the Nottinghams require manually moving the belt, so probably not for you. Vintage Luxmans, Thorens and the new Technics with built-in phono stage all sound like good options. A couple of sub-topics not addressed too much yet: 1) Record cleaning is the key to minimizing ticks & pops, even if you plan on playing mostly new LPs. For about $500 of your total budget you can get significantly cleaner, quieter LPs using a combo of ultrasonic cleaner, DIY fluids and rinse/dry with a wet vac. Read @rushton 's thread here where includes his PositiveFeedback article and other posts that expand on how to do it most cost-effectively. A commitment to cleaning records and immediately storing them in good new sleeves is required to get anywhere close to the sound you are investing in. 2) Phono stage needs to accounted for in your budget. It also must be carefully chosen to match gain and loading with the cartridge and preamp you'll be using. Don't just buy individually suggested items without informed opinions on if they play nice with each other. Aspects to note in your questions will be phono stage gain options, loading options, cartridge output and compliance. Don't feel like you need to become an expert overnight, just ask "Hey does this cart match well with this tonearm and this phono stage?". You'll get plenty of help. Cheers, Spencer |
My take on vinyl is that: You must be DRIVEN. It’s not only about different sound. It’s an hobby, like those cool people who purchased vintage cars and keep them up. You may invest a lot of money to spin an old record that Princeton Records wouldn’t pay $1 for it, with noises and distortions and all, but it’s endless, addictive fun. If you are not that driven - just an curious cat, Technics made very reliable tables that sound good with very little maintenance. Perfect starter. |