brycethomason, I have a question, not an answer.
Did you add a subwoofer to you 802d3's, and if so which one (or two), and
via which connections...pre-amp or amp outputs ?
Do you have a sense that the d3's require no bass amplification with high
resolution sources, but might benefit from a bit of the 'reverb' (due I surmise
to 'flabbiness' of the kevlar speaker cones) which the d2's brought to lesser
recordings ?
Thanks for any insights.
seventies |
Bryce;
"Panty Waist", you got the next to top sub....
You needed the 2000 watt one!!!
There is never to big a sub with DSP
I am, to this day, amazed at what a good, blended sub can add
jeff |
I see this thread was revived, so let me just post a follow-up. I kept the system exactly as described above for 45 days and did some great listening. There were moments of pure nirvana for me. That said, I did end up adding a Bowers-Wilkins DV2D single sub to the system. I think it came down to personal taste and auditioning with and without the subwoofer in the mix, I always favored it with the sub.
The DV2D blends perfectly with the 802D3 (as you would fully expect). It sounds great both with the music I listen to and with movies alike.
I don't have anything on the shopping list now, which is amazing. I think I'm going to be happy with this for quite sometime. Final list of my quest:
Preamp
McIntosh C1100
Amplifiers
PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock L
PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock R
Speakers
Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 L
Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 R
Bowers-Wilkins DV2D
Inputs
PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC)
Apple TV 4K
VPI Traveler 2
Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge
Sony Playstation 4 Pro Console
Power
PS Audio P5 Power Plant L
PS Audio P5 Power Plant R
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Oops,
nice system and well thought out
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Sub or sub(s), No doubt
if you have blending issues, get a room correction software and run below 500 hz
I'm not sure 10" are the best size for your room
jeff
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The bass response of an 802 is considerably better than an 804, no question. But whether you still might need a sub is another question. I have 803ds and use a HSU sub because I have the vent ports on my 803ds plugged to tighten the bass image, and the sub is set up for below 40 Hz and to supplement certain bass lean program material. My room is 30 ft by 30 ft and I have no problem filling this room.
Look, you can always set up your new 802s without a sub and see if you like the sound. If you are a fanatic for 20 Hz organ notes or movie sound effects to shake you room, you may end up with a sub. |
Updates? What was the OPs conclusion? |
@Auxinput --> if you are ever in Atlanta let me know and you can stop by and have a listen, but they are actually 802's :) |
I wish I had those 803D3's to listen to! |
Impressive set up, symmetric and beautiful. The 802d3 is the jewel.
i told you no subs required once I saw the room, I was right.
once all settles, only a couple things left to play with.
i would suggest speaker wire change, interconnect change, and perhaps try something different than the P5. |
Thanks bluesy41
and @joey_v -> as promised :) Here is a photo of how it all turned out: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9k440vblmme900/brycethomason.jpgFinal (I think) equipment list: Preamp: McIntosh C1100 Amplifiers: PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock L PassLabs XA60.8 Monoblock R Speakers: Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 L Bowers-Wilkins 802D3 R Inputs: PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DAC) Apple TV 4K VPI Traveler 2 Audio Technica AT33EV Phonograph Cartridge Power: PS Audio P5 Power Plant L PS Audio P5 Power Plant R Television: LG Oled 65" 4K - OLED65B7A Connects: Hero 1.5 Meter Copper Analog Interconnect: Balanced Pair (Preamps to Amps) Hero 1.5 Meter Copper Analog Interconnect: Balanced Pair (DAC to Preamp) Bluejeans Cable? (Turntable to Preamp) Audioquest Cinnamon 3M Optilink (Television to DAC) AudioQuest Vodka HDMI 2M (AppleTV to Television) Audioquest 6’ Rocket 33 (Amps to Speakers) Pwr Cables: Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1.5M (Outlet to P5 regenerator L) Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1.5M (Outlet to P5 regenerator R) Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1M (P5 regenerator L to Amp L) Pangea Audio AC9SE MKII 1M (P5 regenerator R to Amp R) Pangea Audio 14SE MKII .6M (P5 regenerator L to DAC) Pangea Audio 14SE MKII .6M (P5 regenerator R to Preamp) Other: AC Infinity Aircom S8 17" quiet cooling fan L AC Infinity Aircom S8 17" quiet cooling fan R |
@brycethomason
I’m happy for you! Enjoy your system sir.
Cheers |
@auxinput, you and several others who told me not to worry were absolutely right in regards to the Pass Labs amp power. These XA60.8 monoblocks have no problem at all driving the B&W 802D3's. There is MORE than enough power to drive them. I've found that I've been sitting with the volume around 45-50 (out of 100) on the preamp for my listening sessions so far. If I get the volume above 65-70 then it's really too loud to listen to for any length of time. 75+ is enough to get the cops called on me, ha!
For the first few hours after getting the 802's, I kept the dual B&W ascm10s subs in the room using the highlevel inputs. I would listen to music with them on and with them off. I tweaked and played with the levels, phase, extension, etc.. but I didn't feel that those particular subs added anything at all to the sound. The 802's frequency response is just as low as that of the subs, but I thought that it might help with pressurizing the room or giving some extra oomph to the low bass. I just didn't pick that up at all with my ears and thus removed the subs (and quickly sold here on Audiogon).
These 802's have no problem handling musical bass in my space. They hit low enough to shake the room when I ask them to. In running bass sweeps, my neighbor (and best friend) who was inside his kitchen texted me saying that he could tell I was enjoying the new speakers.
That all said.. I do also use the space for some television and movie watching (maybe 30%) and am currently somewhat infatuated with the Dolby vision content on my LG OLED also in the room. For movie watching, I am thinking about adding in an ultralow sub (maybe a B&W DB2D or a Funk Audio 21.0L) just for home theater but I'm pretty certain that no sub would ever be warranted in this space for discerning music listening. I'm always experimenting though so of course I would test that out, ha.
Again.. let me say I have enjoyed all the feedback from the community here. This thread ended up making the popular conversations section! I'm kinda proud, lol. Thank you to everyone who gave me advice and contributed to this great discussion.
Ps. I ended up with a different preamp. The PS Audio that I thought I was going to integrate ended up being on backorder. So after much research, I decided to go with a Mcintosh C1100. I couldn't be happier. It's a beauty and enhances the sound of my system. I tested going directly from the DAC into the amps and then putting the McIntosh between them and love what the C1100 adds to the overall sound.
Pss. I'm going to post some photos for you guys to show how things turned out in my next post. |
Just a quick follow up. Both the 804D2 and the 802D3 are 8 ohm speakers with a minimum impedance of 3 ohms. Both are 90db efficient. In my opinion, you will have absolutely no problem driving either speaker with the XA60.8 if you are listening in the 0-60 watts area. The problem arises if you want to play the speakers so loud that you require more than 60 watts. In this situation, the XA60 will run out of gas because the power supply is only able to push the 60 "constant" watts required for Class A operation. If you tend to turn up the volume very loud, you might find that you want a higher power amplifier. |
I just came into this conversation and would like to make a comment. I would highly caution against many statements that say the XA60.8 will not be enough to power the 802 D3 speakers. The XA amplifier is a full Class A amp, which means it is biasing the output stage to push a constant 60 watts at all times, even if the speaker is not using it (the un-used power in a Class A ends up being heat generated by the transistor through the heat-sink. Many conventional Class AB amps will be biased into Class A for a very small amount - typically anywhere from 1 watt to 8-10 watts. (Sometimes it can be biased as high as 20-30 watts). However, it will never require as much A/C power as a 60 Watt Class A monoblock. The power supply has to be significantly over built on a Class A amp to be able to provide 60 watts of current without any drop in voltage. On a conventional Class AB amp. the amplifier will draw a constant amount based on it's Class A bias (1 watt to 8 watts). Music transients can push into the 200-400 watt area for less than a second, but then the 60hz A/C voltage is still enough to bring the voltage back up in the power supply capacitor bank. It's a completely different requirement. If you look at the weight of the XA60.8 monoblock, it is 88 lbs, which is a very large monoblock amplifier. The Parasound JC1 is only 64 lbs, but it will output 400 watts and this is easily able to drive the 802 D3. If you compare weight (which really is a representation of transformer weight and heatsink), the weight of the XA60.8 Class A amplifier equals the weight of the X260.8 monoblock amplifier exactly (both are exactly 88 lbs). If you look at the common weight of a 100 watt amplifier, you will find that the weight is typically something like 20-40lbs per channel. I would say that a 100 watt amp may have problems driving the 802 D3. However, something like the XA60.8 would theoretically have no problems because of its significantly large power supply. If someone here has actually driven a set of B&W 802 speakers with a Pass XA60 amplifier, please comment on your opinions for the ability to drive the speakers. For all others who are speaking mostly from Class AB points-of-view, please hold your comments unless you have experience with a full Class A amplifier. In my own theory, I don't think the XA60 will have any problem at all driving the 802 D3 speakers. |
A friend of mine has the 802D?, and to my ears, they do not need a sub.
Deep bass aplenty.
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So when’s the speaker coming Bryce? |
I have three of the 802 d3s across the front of my listening/theater room. They sound great. I also have a DB1 subwoofer that I ordered at the same time. Honestly, I am still fooling around with the DB1 settings and also the lower frequency settings on the MX160 to get punch from the sub. But as to your question, the 802s sound really great even without a sub. I have played them both ways, with and without subs and I can tell you I here subtle differences while playing them. I listen to many different types of music and movies through them and they do sound great without a sub. Everything from dave mathews to star wars has been played through them. I would just keep them from the back wall about a foot or so. Set them up and see for yourself if you need a sub. |
Nice room... after seeing it, I think the low end will be more than adequate in your space - especially after seeing where the left speaker is placed in the corner. You will likely have tremendous bass build up there.
If you’re not listening extremely loud with extremely heavy bass content, Your amplifiers will be just fine. Could you get more from the 802’s with more power? ... absolutely! But I think you’ll be thrilled. Some tasteful room treatments and proper bass trapping would be of more benefit than anything else I’d venture to guess.
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Do you think the 60.8 will do justice to the speaker?
They will very much so, BUT!!! to a certain level. Depends on what sort of music the owner listens to, and how loud. Cheers George |
I’m with @mr_m on the preference for a sub or two, regardless almost of whatever main-speakers may be used. And I wouldn’t skimp on the size of the sub(s) either as I feel you really can’t overdo capacity, but any sub capacity can be dialed wrongly. The bigger the displacement area the less cone movement is required, and the more effortless and enveloping the overall sound will potentially be. The bigger issue, apart from proper implementation with the mains, may also concern how to high-pass the main speakers the best way possible (if one even chooses to high-pass them to begin with), so not to let the filtering here impede on the qualities of theirs.
I’ve only heard the smaller sibling, the 803D3’s, and for what they are (my preference in "sound-type" lies elsewhere) they’re rather extraordinary. I gather the 802D3’s could add to this sensation and be very capable as standalones as well, but a pair of large, quality subs (preferably sealed) - with proper care invested in their implementation - could really lift the presentation substantially, and make for an enveloping, versatile, scaled and dynamic sound. A pair of Funk Audio 18.0C’s, for example, would cost you from close to $5,500, but would be very worthwhile. Myself I use SVS SB16-Ultra’s, and a pair of those would set you back $3,800, but they’re massively capable as well (the SVS SB4000’s would also fit the bill here).
In light of the investments thrown about for cables and other accessories - (de)coupling, room treatments and what not - subwoofers and their cost could be the lesser issue in light of their sonic impact, certainly if one were to ease back on the expense of named accessories instead, effectively totaling for a macro-change and -improvement of an altogether different magnitude. Spent your money where it really matters and involves physics; conversely accessories can set you back with crazy amounts of money that oftentimes only involves change (if they’re not detrimental) rather than betterment. |
System is pretty good at this time, still a few bits and pieces and the room to complete with regards to acoustic treatments up front.
The Boulder 2060 is superb. But so is the source being Emm Labs Dac2x + TSDx transport.
The cabling is fantastic, I run Audioquest Wel Signature speaker wire with Wel Signature power cords and about to have AQ complete my 3 sets of AQ Wind XLR interconnects.
I used to run a PS Audio P5, but after a little bit of testing, I found it stifled the sound. I am now trying out a Torus RM15 next week.
Good luck with your system, I am sure you will enjoy it. Keep us posted. |
Thanks @joey_v !
You are right about the chair and the sofa.. both from dwr :)
"...I run the 802D3 with a Boulder 2060..."
I want to be you when I grow up! ha ha |
I believe your concern about subwoofer in addition to the 802D3 is unwarranted. You will be a-ok. Just be aware that the 802D3 bass is clean and quick. I had the 802D2 in my room and the bass was rudimentary by comparison.
Also, I own the Olympica 3 and the bass is also lumbering by comparison.
I believe the 802D3 bass is similar to those that you get out of a comparable Magico. Quick, fast, textured. |
Bryce
@brycethompsonYou have a very nice room, I see a lot of DWR pieces including the Eames chair and I believe that couch. We have similar couch/sectional in my game room. I've been wanting the Eames as my listening chair but I feel like it's just 3 inches too short.
Anyway, I see the room, you will not need a sub with the 802D3 in the room. And yes, the 800D3 would be too much for the space.
I think you will be fine, and the XA60.8 is fine.
I run the 802D3 with a Boulder 2060 600w amplifier, class A. And yes, it is a superb piece of art.
You will be fine. |
@joey_v -> Sorry about that. Your posts have been very valuable. I'm sorry I didn't respond directly, but I was definitely listening to your posts and hanging on to every word. The fact that you own the 802d3 plus have the additional experience of the 800's is really a great testament to my expectations. I don't have space in my room the way that it's oriented to accommodate the 800D3. I may be pushing it with the 802's even. I'm going to try to link to a photo I just took to illustrate. I think the 802's are going to fill that space to each side of the cabinet with nary any room to spare. If I ever did need subs then I think I'd have to think about installing them sidewall. In the photo, if this works.. there are the 804D2's I have now. I have an appointment window on Tuesday for the 802D3's. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cd7waxvxb3sgews/IMG_0643.JPG?dl=0Thanks for all your feedback. I'm also glad to hear that you feel like I won't have any issues with the 60.8 driving them! Thanks, Bryce |
You’ll be sufficient w the xa60.8.
your main issue remains regarding the bass, yet you have not addressed my previous responses. If you were that worried, you would be better off w the 800 than the 802 plus subs.
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@gcobb22 --> you just voiced by current biggest fear. I just purchased the two Pass Labs XA60.8 here on Audiogon two weeks back so they are brand new to me. That is actually what started this whole revamp of my system. I then ordered the 802D3's which are to be delivered this Tuesday. I've been somewhat concerned that I've gone and gotten too much speaker for the amps. If that turns out to be the case then it will have been a very expensive mistake to be sure. There's no undo on those amps though, so I need to find a way to live with them for a good long while. Thanks for the feedback! |
Hi,
You have had many people response to your question & I haven't read through them all so this may have been stated already, if anyone feels the same way I do.
I don't think your 60.8's are up to the task of driving the 802's to anywhere near their potential. They are world class amp's, I own 100.5's but the the 802's are demanding. Maybe not at lower levels in a smaller space but that isn't what you have. Obviously see how they do first, you may be happy. But I really think that even if you are happy you'd be sold if you then hooked up a more powerful amp & made a comparison.
As far as the subs...they will give the 60.8's an easier time if you use a crossover. I'd rather spend the money on bigger amps first. They take up less space & you won't spend forever, if you are like me, trying to blend the subs to the mains, no easy task. For me the subs would be secondary.
But, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a sucker for big heavy monoblocks. As much as for looks as sound! Good luck |
Relieving the bass off of a speaker always improves the frequencies above the bass, if you electronically crossed the speaker and sub, certainly that would improve this speaker, but IF this speaker indeed goes down with a flat curve below 20 Hz, then a sub is simply adding more low frequency. |
I’ve read through all 52 posts and I believe that there has not been a single mention or query of/regarding the type of music and the music genres the OP listens to.
I don’t have a pro- nor a no- sub position. Asking for general educational information.......is type of music listened to, a factor? Thanks. |
@brycethomason
you do know that spending extra on the sub will not yield you a cleaner midrange on the 802d3, right?
if you’re this concerned get the 800d3 |
Yes...it will make the B&W's sound better. Adjusted properly, the mids and highs will sound better, but the subs shouldn't be obvious at all.
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Good point @timlub — will do! |
brycethomason, make sure that you break these in well before judging them too intensely. They will change dramatically in the first 100 hours and still noticeably after that.
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mr_m. No, I am not wrong. There is something to be said for room interaction causing dips or A wimpy amp not having the current to drive the bottom effectively, but all things being equal, adding bottom will increase the output at the given bass frequencies. |
When I first read that I was concerned that it may not be enough. I think it will depend on a few factors, such as how loud you want to listen, musical tastes, and the room.
In an acoustically tuned mastering room, where we are working on music that has to be compressed, equalized, and limited for commercial distribution, we have to listen at various volumes and hear very subtle dynamics changes. This may not be the case in a normal listening environment. I know the XA60.8 wouldn’t be enough power in my situation.
In fact, while the 350.5 is plenty loud enough, I have wondered if more watts wouldn’t even pull more from the speaker in my circumstance. I hope to get around to trying the X600.8 at some point in the near future. I do know a mastering engineer using 802D2 using X600’s and he’s thrilled.
i hope that helps, but I think you’ll have to test it and see. |
@gat3 -> regarding your comment on power required for the 802d3: Your passlabs 350.5 are significantly larger than the passlabs xa60.8 I have. Do you think the 60.8 will do justice to the speaker? |
FWIW, I run 800Ds, second gen and I run 2 rythmick 15 subs. I am 75/25 music/HT and love it. I am trying to pressure 10k cubic feet, my room is large. Get the fronts, measure, breakin, measure again....go buy subs(at least 2 maybe 3). |
We have the B&W 802D3's in our mastering suite at our professional recording facility. They are mated with a Pass Labs 350.5. While we certainly have different needs than the typical hifi user, these speakers have plenty of bass response, BUT they need tremendous amounts of power to deliver properly, particularly in the extreme bottom octave.
However, this series of B&W is truly incredible. I demoed Magico, KEF, Focal, Revel, Vadersteen, etc (ranging from $30K-$50K) and the B&W's were what I needed to work on. I was also auditioning with records that I have produced, mixed, and/or mastered, so I know what the material was supposed to sound like.
I know you'll enjoy them! |
timlub.
You are totally wrong of what a sub will do for the B&W 802's. If you look at the way sub(s) are integrated with the main speakers, you will not double up on the low frequencies. |
.8 pass labs and 802 d-3’s ,that’s a negative on the sub ! I have 802 d’s with a Mac 602 pushing them and I just turn my sub off when listening to 2 channel ,or I get to hear my wife say that’s too much bass |
awww. Thanks... NOW I'm with you, ha ha. |
@brycethomason
my fingers were just faster than my head, spec's are correct for 802D3
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Hi @timlub --> I'm with you but just fyi.. we are talking about 802D3 :) |
The 804D2 is 3db down @ 38hz, The 804D3 is 3db down @ 17hz. Unless you place them where a room causes a suck out effect, there is no reason to add a sub to this speaker.
If you do add a sub, you will be ADDING to these frequencies of where ever you cross, say 40 hz and down. Effectively, you will be causing a hump in the bass region from the crossover point and down.. Not my cup of tea
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The answer to your question, in my opinion, is not always do I hear enough bass to satisfy myself? Bass frequencies suck up a lot of amp power which means that amp power isn’t there for the higher frequencies if it is need. Drawing great amounts of amp power also strains the amplifier. Typically amps. put out considerably less that they are capable of and that is desirable so as to preserve amp reserves when the program material demands it (head room, etc.). This has nothing to do with being a "bass face"- very few full range speakers can produce bass as well and as accurately as (a) dedicated subwoofer(s)and if you sacrifice amp power to produce bass you are likely to also be affecting the production of higher frequencies. Hopefully this will be helpful. |
There is that too, dualmarantz! To find the locations of the resonant modes in your room (via the calculators on the net; modes are generally along all the wall/floor/ceiling intersections, and at the 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 divisions of the length, width, and height of the room), and avoid those locations for your equipment rack, speakers, subs, and listening chair, is a good start. If you can afford them, install "true" bass traps (not those flat pieces of Owens Corning 703 wrapped in cloth that some companies market as bass traps) in those mode locations, to soak up the standing waves. OB subs are a way to excite fewer of those modes to begin with, but most people don’t want to go there. |
bdp24: "The bottom octave is a bitch to reproduce, and very, VERY few speakers are up to the task."
I would amend that sentence: "The bottom octave is a bitch to reproduce, and very, very few ROOMS are up to the task."
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I want to just thank everyone for all the input and advice. I've thoroughly enjoyed hearing folks from both camps. You all are certainly experts with well thought out opinions. The one thing that is truly clear is that at the end of the days it will be left in the 'ears' of the beholder. The 802d3s arrive on Tuesday of next week, so I'll know what suits my ears soon enough.
The deal to sell my two B&W ASWCM10 (not the cm2 mind you) subs fell through, so I actually still have them. I'll just hold on to them so I can do some a/b testing with them. I don't know if they will do justice to the towers the way a b&W flagship sub like a DB-1D would but at least I'll have them to make that call here shortly for myself.
Again, I've enjoyed the hell out of this conversation and send a heartfelt thanks out for some seriously great engagement on the topic from this community. Thanks for the help! |
